Marksman class should be addressed again

Big Lincoln··37 votes·1,855 views

you've got these guys Varus MissFortune Caitlyn Jhin being dominant lane forces with a free pass to mid-game against KogMaw Vayne Twitch, but they also remain highly relevant even into end game. there's no reason to pick dedicated late game champs and be worthless until you finish core when these guys can do it immediately and still scale well enough to match you. Lucian isn't even the premier lane bully anymore, and he actually falls off harder than all these guys combined. WTF?

ranged v melee still not addressed/lack of marksmen alternatives; I think this is a bigger issue with the marksman role than boards thinks. when the only champs ADC has to worry about is another ADC matchup, it makes the role stale, and also makes it (imo) harder to balance against the rest of the roster. you really only see them compared to other marksmen picks, and champs that COULD be made good picks for bullying them and shutting them down early Renekton Pantheon Riven can't survive the level 1 poke forcing them off CS and losing XP. Mordekaiser was an experiment on this, but he was even worse; if by some miracle other melees had headed bot, he would have freely out-leveled them with his W passive for a free lane. We had a brief stint of Ziggs in the ADC role and we're still dealing with mage supports, but that's still more of the same; melee champs can't deal with them, and tank supports have all but vanished in the wake of Zyra Malzahar Brand becoming the new norm.

itemization is stale as fuck. Riot's been back and forth about how they feel about caster ADCs playing with pen; originally they reworked the stat specifically because of them, but now I guess they're ok with it. Crit as a mechanic is outdated and I don't think RNG-reliance has any place in the game anymore, not when Riot has taken so many steps towards clarity. A lot of champs had potential to break out of the crit mold, with the brief phase of on-hit Tristana and Caitlyn but sadly, it was never meant to be. Crit builds are very cookie-cutter and I think the champions dependent on it suffer as a result.

tl;dr marksmen and their power curves should be reassessed, a healthy way to promote alternative choices or carries that aren't ranged ADs in bot lane farm role would make for real diversity and I M O make the role easier to balance, since you'd have a far more reasonable way to assess their power once they can be held up to a larger roster. Crit should be looked at too; not necessarily removed, but it for sure needs a change, or at the very least, an alternative build for rightclickers to sacrifice late game dominance for mid-game power (like on-hits)

28 Comments

paisy17 votes

After the vanguard update

Riot: "Hello everyone! We're happy to announce the new class update, it'll be the dive-"

Riot member whispers in their ear

Riot: "Wait, Aatrox is a diver? Erm...we're going to update marksman again!"

Ahristocats7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fF8YwYog,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-23T21:58:24.650+0000)

Mordekaiser was an experiment on this, but he was even worse; if by some miracle other melees had headed bot, he would have freely out-leveled them with his W passive for a free lane.

i remember that, and that's why i hate certainlyt cause he didn't need the xp passive to make morde viable botlane

Morde already couldn't use W without a champ so he was forced to go bot then his W was the most broken ability i ever saw in league it healed from 3 targets, healed more healed more from minions had double of its damage by overlapping didnt have hp cost

he didn't need an xp passive

Jax i picked him against morde, did decent and then had 2 less levels

i think riot should just change how xp works in DUO lane, not more. They should reduce xp penality to Duo lane to make everyone reaching faster more level

Big Lincoln4 votes

Pretty much this, Mord was nuts even without the XP passive

And he STILL has a neutered XP passive for some reason, it's so damn annoying

i think riot should just change how xp works in DUO lane, not more. They should reduce xp penality to Duo lane to make everyone reaching faster more level

would like this a lot. i think minion aggro should b addressed too. a lot of suggestions for making it more like dota where clicking an enemy aggros instead of getting aggro after you connect.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fF8YwYog,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-02-24T00:43:32.747+0000)

would like this a lot. i think minion aggro should b addressed too. a lot of suggestions for making it more like dota where clicking an enemy aggros instead of getting aggro after you connect.

Riot already said that they don't like this idea because not everyone would profite from it High elo players would use it But low elo players would be punished since there is no way to know that you can use this when you play the game

not saying i disagree with you, i love that mechanic in dota2

Big Lincoln4 votes

maybe if riot made a tutorial on minion aggro

But that would require them to remember their outdated tutorial

MagikarpIsBoss1 votes

I don't think you can do anything to fix the tutorial. Its been years and we still have thornmail ashe in there.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fF8YwYog,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-02-24T00:43:32.747+0000) would like this a lot. i think minion aggro should b addressed too. a lot of suggestions for making it more like dota where clicking an enemy aggros instead of getting aggro after you connect.

'A lot of suggestions' or in other words, 'Rebo pitches the idea every time the topic of ranged vs melee laning comes up'.

When I first started playing League back in beta I was frankly shocked to discover that particular mechanic hadn't made it over from DotA. My thought at the time was 'how the hell are melees supposed to lane against ranged champs?'. The answer is apparently 'bring lots of lube' item 1029 item 2003 item 2003 item 2003 item 2003

I would love to see that mechanic added to League. Though it would probably necessitate the tutorial describing minion aggro mechanics to new players. Which is fine by me, the tutorial hasn't been changed since I started playing and it's still pretty awful.

AirKingNeo6 votes

The problem isn't the fact Crit is RNG based. The problem is crit being so cookie-cutter that builds are completely indiverse and the fact crit scales quadratically rather than linearly.

I would rather remove crit and give ADC real diverse itemization. Balance items around all champion classes and make a few melee only for the sake of a few things, but probably 1 or 0 items. I'd rather see some ADCs build Trinity, some build armor pen (and not having bullshit like Cleaver + LW to make them not fall off), and some build the replacements of the crit items.

50000000000000002 votes

I'm also in favor of changing crit significantly, although perhaps not removing it outright. I think crits should have a different unique effect for each marksman. Ashe and Jhin has some unique on-crit effect that helps them kite better. Some similar mechanics instead of just flat out doing more damage would help with diversifying builds.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Remove crit chance as a mechanic and replace it with something else. Crits like Jhin's 4th shot, Fiora's E, ect still exist. However crit chance needs to be removed and replaced to help balance the class of marksmen from being all late game focused.

Sire Hippington5 votes

you've got these guys being dominant lane forces with a free pass to mid-game against , but they also remain highly relevant even into end game.

I don't think that's a big issue. The itemisation that allows them to be that strong early-mid just got nerfed, the champs them self got nerfed, and with the vanguard update, tankiness probably gets a bit more relevant, causeing them to fall off harder compared to actuall dps carries.

Melee vs ranged is a bigger issues that covrs more than just adc, but certainly an issue thatz needs to be adressed. It's just that this issue on it's own has probably a bigger scope than another adc-update(even with potential crit rework)

itemization is stale as fuck. Riot's been back and forth about how they feel about caster ADCs playing with pen; originally they reworked the stat specifically because of them, but now I guess they're ok with it. Crit as a mechanic is outdated and I don't think RNG-reliance has any place in the game anymore

Now on this i can agree completely, and it imo is one off the main reason why adc overall feel kinda stale, and outside off the lethality(which i for one really apreiciate) lack any meaningfull enough defferences. The way their total damage scales with crit and thuse rlies on rightclicking+rng defines them way to much in the lategame, so with crit builts, they all feel very similar and do very similar things(mostly rightclicking). This makes it hard to really get proper niches for them. Another issue is that they are always expected to be the major damage source and tankshreders, which further limits the options for uniquness.

Spoofghoul4 votes

I agree with most of that

i specifically want a different powercurve for ranged

less lategame more midgame

maybe even less focus on dps and more on other forms of utility and objective shred possibly through items where they could build somethign which give bonus damage vs epic monsters and structures or whatever so they still stay dominant in that regard

more specialization, like tankbuster, utility, squishy buster, earlygame & lategame options

it would be much more fun if they came online sooner, but then at the cost of their lategame ofc

Sire Hippington2 votes

more specialization, like tankbuster, utility, squishy buster, earlygame & lategame options

Don't disagree, but that one is not just on adc. For most off it, we lack proper tankbusters in other roles, atleast in the sense that they can actually compete with current adc, which usually means the adc has to bring atleast decent tankbusting for the teamcomp. So if we want to get adc away from beeing tankbusters by default, we also need proper tankbusters on other positions.

Ralanr1 votes

That answer is usually high dps melee champions: Yasuo, Fiora, Kled, Yi, Warwick, Xin Zhao, Aatrox (if he wasn't shit), etc.

Then there are champions that are just really good against tanks like Darius, Mordekaiser (in theory), Volibear, and maybe lethality Garen.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The issue is that most exept maybe fiora if she commits the ult either have alot less dps than even the not so dps focused adc, or they get blown up by the opposing backline pretty darn fast if they try to dps the tank.

Ralanr1 votes

If they aren't having any help then yeah. If that's a teamfight scenario then both sides are teamfighting.

five oh tree 3 votes

The reason crit has not been removed from the game is pretty easy to see. ADCs need a buildpath that is good for lategame damage and can kill tanks, but they also need one THAT CANNOT BE ABUSED BY OTHER CLASSES. No other class (except skirmishers, which are pretty much just melee ADCs anyway) uses crit.

If you remove crit from the game, you have to add a bunch of items for adcs to use, or they'll literally be useless. Only lethality builds would be viable, and they'd all fall off late game. Those who couldn't use/abuse lethality would be forced to build as a ranged bruiser to not be completely useless late game, but they would be below every other class. Picking a marksman would be a burden on your team.

The solution to that problem would be add a bunch of items for ranged only champions that give AD. Now, that sounds like a good idea on paper, but it would be a dozen of new items to balance the game around and the boards would all bitch about them. In addition to that, it would completely fuck up the power curves. You want every marksman to have a powercurve like pantheon? because that's where the removal of crit is leading to. The reason it would fuck up the powercurves is that it would be a host of items to push marksman to be relevant lategame without crit, but all those items would be purchasable all game. Crit works (mostly) because they have to build armor pen/attack speed/attack damage/crit/lifesteal to become the lategame carry, and no item gives significant power on its own.

This is a rather silly comparison, but imagine armor pen, attack speed, attack damage, crit, and lifesteal are each 1 of the 5 pieces of Exodia. You have to combine them all to create the monster that wins games, but each on its own isn't significant. Now imagine instead of making all 5 pieces win the game, they each just had 10x the attack/defense they currently do. It fucks everything up, right?

I realize that wasn't a perfect analogy, but I think it helps make my point easier to understand. There isn't a good way to remove crit from the game without completely reworking.. pretty much everything.

Now, you can downvote this all you want, but no one has provided a realistic way to get rid of crit without changing the entire game. As the game is, if crit was not a stat, tanks would outscale marksman. That is something riot will never support, so crit will never just be taken out.

sobi9992 votes

can i just be rude and ask where the f'n F is teemo? He is a marksman because i never see the fkr addressed in mage or assassin updates........ Then when i say he needs a clear role people give me downvotes because they hate laning against him.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

azir is also a marksman, whats your point?

sobi9991 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fF8YwYog,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-23T23:00:58.388+0000)

azir is also a marksman, whats your point?

Ok let me explain

These are the roles given to teeto. Marksman, slayer, assassin and mage. Some consider him predominantly marksman whilst and especially after his rework he is considered as an assassin due to his passive containing invisibility. However the problem is that whenever you get an assassin or marksman update he is never addressed. Nearly all marksman go AD whilst teemo goes AP. On the other hand some assassins like kat, ekko and akali go AP they all have a clear burst and mobility of an assassin where as eemo is more of a DOT harass type.

Azir has the secondary role of marksman unlike teemo which atm is struggling to decide what role it has. Azir also is struggling with how he is used so you just gave an example of another champ similar to teeto. If teemo was to be a marksman he needs AD scaling as he misses out on lifesteal which is a must on marksmen. Hextech doesn't give the AS and usually is used on assassin teeto but assassin teeto needs mobility comparable to an assassin. He really needs a rework is the point but so do the champs in the waiting list. Just people don't agree that teeto is currently in a bad position because he is opressive against melee/no gap closer champs but seldom do you find them top now.

Melvear1 votes

{quoted}

Ok let me explain

These are the roles given to teeto. Marksman, slayer, assassin and mage. Some consider him predominantly marksman whilst and especially after his rework he is considered as an assassin due to his passive containing invisibility. However the problem is that whenever you get an assassin or marksman update he is never addressed. Nearly all marksman go AD whilst teemo goes AP. On the other hand some assassins like kat, ekko and akali go AP they all have a clear burst and mobility of an assassin where as eemo is more of a DOT harass type.

Azir has the secondary role of marksman unlike teemo which atm is struggling to decide what role it has. Azir also is struggling with how he is used so you just gave an example of another champ similar to teeto. If teemo was to be a marksman he needs AD scaling as he misses out on lifesteal which is a must on marksmen. Hextech doesn't give the AS and usually is used on assassin teeto but assassin teeto needs mobility comparable to an assassin. He really needs a rework is the point but so do the champs in the waiting list. Just people don't agree that teeto is currently in a bad position because he is opressive against melee/no gap closer champs but seldom do you find them top now.

In my opinion, Teemo is an anti adc. His kit is great at bursting targets who rely on AAs to deal damage due to his blind, and the burst from a shroom+AA+Q+AA along with a lichbane proc is really high. He is very vulnerable to casters though, since pretty much all of them have a range advantage on him, as well as greater CC.

I think he's fine being AP based but I'd like him to get a moderate range increase to be viable bot lane. Right now he's extremely easy to harass out of lane. If he could CS somewhat safely, I think he'd be relevant there in certain matchups.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

best post i've read in a while let's get this upvoted

MFTORANK12 votes

I kinda miss playing crit ad's like when they were really popular a couple seasons ago, but there is no incentive to pick them up because people don't play tanks as much and by the time you reach your 3 items power spike on Jinx Twitch KogMaw the game has already been decided. Right now AD caster or Ziggs is the way to go. As a botlane veteran I've had to adapt even playing Cassiopeia down there with great success.

If tanks become more relevant and lethality is nerfed you'll see the rise of late game ad's until then it's gonna more of the same regardless.

Hayaishi21 votes

Just saying this wasn't the case a couple of months ago.

It was Vayne and Twitch shitting on everyone in bot lane.

Big Lincoln3 votes

it was the same problem in the opposite order, late game carries turned into lane bullies and spiked hard with just 2 items

Arakadia1 votes

Lucian doesn't fall off THAT hard. Least in my games, maybe its because we're not coordinated enough.

Ralanr6 votes

ADCs in general don't really fall off unless compared to other ADCs (which is the problem). The only "marksman" that does fall off is Urgot.

MagikarpIsBoss1 votes

One reason why people say he falls off hard is because he has no real way of fighting without being super close up. If the enemy allows Lucian to walk in with his shit range, he would blow someone up instantly. But he cant do that because in teamfights if he gets in auto range he will die. Most adcs have some way of dealing damage when not in auto range. You have things like MF's entire kit, Caitlyn Q/R/Long range autos, Ashe W, Varus Q, Jhin R/W, Twitch R, Sivir Q, etc.

TL;DR Lucian has low range and can't reliably deal damage in teamfights at range without dying

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