maybe they should do things that actually make sense to the player too, instead of just a balance team more concerned with data, graphs and 50% than anything else.
And no, saying "it's their game, they can do whatever they want with it" isn't correct. It's their game AND ours. If it wasn't for the player, they would be nothing. Just another nobody developer in an ocean of nobody developers.
Teridax6820 votesI don't think Riot needs to fulfil any condition in particular for us as a community to strive to become more constructive in our feedback. However, this whole idea that the Boards are exceptionally toxic or whatever, just because they give a lot of criticism, is a crock of shit. One can look at literally any game feedback forum, no matter how successful the game, and find heaps upon heaps of complaints, along with many emotionally-charged responses that mock or attack the character of the game's developers. Even games with famously positive communities, such as Team Fortress 2 and Warframe, have these people. League is no different, and to pretend otherwise is to show tremendous ignorance as to how game communities work on the internet. I get that this isn't always the most pleasant environment to work with, but it should absolutely not be used as an excuse for Rioters to stop interacting with us, and I feel much of the degradation in Riot's player communications has been blamed on their own playerbase, even if we are not the ones responsible for it.
What also irritates me with Riot's attitude towards their players is that they keep making excuses for why they're not communicating so well, namely that the Boards are not a good place for constructive dialogue (which is partially true), yet nobody seems willing to devote even the slightest amount of extra resources towards actually resolving the issue. This is why Riot spends literally no money on the Boards, why they, a major corporation, exclusively hire unpaid volunteers for the sole purpose of answering the report queue to their official community site, and why the Boards have experienced so little growth since their creation that the home page still has a Beta tag. A core reason why the Boards have issues is because they were hastily built with a lot of core problems, then left to rot ever since. It should be no surprise then that we continue to have major issues as a direct result of this, namely the upvote-farming culture based on Reddit-style voting.
Another worrying trend I've been seeing recently is that, while Rioters always tell us that they're generally too busy to spend time talking on the Boards (which is usually true), we've been experiencing an increasing amount of Riot replies that don't reply to constructive threads at all, but instead respond directly to more confrontational threads, and add fuel to the fire by starting an argument on how the poster was rude or hyperbolic or the like, often with a response that clearly took some time to write. It's all very nice to hit back at players who upset you, but in the end those kinds of Riot responses are completely unproductive, and only contribute to the impression that Rioters look down upon their players, while positive threads continue to be met with silence. When a player is toxic on a game forum, it's bad, but at least not that uncommon; however, when a game developer is toxic to their own playerbase, something is very, very wrong. There has been an attitude problem with some more recent Riot replies, and that urgently needs to stop.
y0r1ck3 votesI will contest this. They're not special, and it's not their job to be nice to assholes. You cannot speak in absolutes. Not every constructive thread is ignored and not every reply to a toxic thread is combative. Riot employees are normal people, and I see no reason for them to constrain themselves more than others must. Tell it like it is, I always say.
It may not move the discussion forward, but people should be expected to defend themselves.
I agree that this site is unsuitable for constructive criticism. Upvotes on main posts need to go, and only replies should be voted on and counted for visibility algorithms. Rules are too vague, and so too subjective. Low effort and rule breaking posts must consistently be moderated asap.
Teridax681 votesI will contest this. They're not special, and it's not their job to be nice to assholes. You cannot speak in absolutes. Not every constructive thread is ignored and not every reply to a toxic thread is combative. Riot employees are normal people, and I see no reason for them to constrain themselves more than others must. Tell it like it is, I always say.
This is not in any way what I said or implied in my post. I am perfectly fine with Riot taking time to call out toxic behavior and users, especially if they're causing a major negative impact or are generating disinformation purely for the sake of farming outrage-fuelled upvotes. However, what I take issue with is when Riot devotes precious communications resources just to pick fights with randos on the internet, as has been happening more often recently (though that's obviously not what Rioters have exclusively been doing). Moreover, I disagree with you: as providers of a product and service to the playerbase, it is Riot's job to remain professional, and it is certainly not the job of any Rioter to go out of their way to spread negativity for negativity's sake. If they don't want to deal with an asshole in particular, and if they're experiencing a larger issue, they can actually make an effort to make their communications space more positive. In none of these cases does sparking interpersonal arguments solve anything, and in the end it's a waste of time that is damaging to Riot and its relationship with its playerbase.
It may not move the discussion forward, but people should be expected to defend themselves.
Defending oneself and slinging mud back at someone else are two very different things. If someone were trying to start a false rumor concerning a Rioter, I agree that they deserve to quash that and call out whoever lied in the first place. However, when a Rioter goes out of their way to call the Boards an echo chamber too full of biased and negative people to be worth consideration (and this has happened), or when they specifically pick on how a person made one exaggeration in a statement that was clearly not meant to be taken literally, in total ignorance of whichever larger point they were trying to make, those kinds of comments come off as unprofessional, disrespectful, and altogether immature. Moreover, if a Rioter has to come personally defend themselves, every time one player among literal millions makes a post calling them a poo poo pants, then perhaps they're not quite cut out for the job of game design.
Low effort and rule breaking posts must consistently be moderated asap.
I very much agree with this, but the problem right now is that it is simply not possible given Riot's approach to moderation. Right now, every moderator is a volunteer, meaning that they do this job without any pay, or real training, and are generally given very lax guidelines on how much work they're expected to do. When I was on the Warden team, i.e. the predecessor to the mod team, I constantly ran across this problem where any attempt to address low-effort posts was met with a ton of inertia, mostly due to the larger amount of work it would entail. By contrast, in the most other online game forums, and the near-totality of forums for large games, the people assigned to this kind of duty are paid workers, who are properly trained, and who spend their entire time on the clock running through the forums to address toxicity. There are often still volunteers, but these people tend to be VIPs or other community leaders, who don't have to deal with the nitty-gritty of addressing individual toxic posts, and who instead get to spend their volunteer time leading by example, organizing community projects, and generally acting as a medium for quick feedback between the community and the devs, including feedback on how to improve the forums. As such, if Riot wants to move forward on this, they're going to have to actually spend resources on hiring trained people to moderate full-time, instead of outsourcing their entire burden to essentially just random Boards users.
Asterfix14 votesThey're focused around pro play because that's what makes them money. Sure, hundreds of thousands of players buying skins helps to but that's what the skin team is for. The balancing team is there to make pro play look interesting so people tune in and they get that sweet ad revenue. The only thing we can do is adapt or quit. They have no intention of balancing around regular players because we aren't crucial to their survival. In a way it's good at filtering out players that lucked their way into higher elo's but it also royally screws average players trying to climb.
What differentiates Riot from other nobody developers is the same thing that differentiates Blizzard from other developers. They have a foothold in the genre. LoL has had more than 8x as many players as other MOBAs for a while. The game is akin to a gambling addiction. "Will I get carried this game? Will I get a team of dullards who can't tell the difference between their Q and their ass? Who knows! Guess I better roll the dice." You feel good when you win and you want to win when you lose.
That's my take on it anyways.
Chalze1 votesThey're focused around pro play because that's what makes them money
This in my opinion is all you need
Percentages1 votesIDK i see the numbers on twitch and they are dwarfed by other games.
Karunamon1 votesThere's also not that much interesting going on right now unless you're deeply invested in the run up to MSI. It definitely goes up in the lead up to worlds.
Percentages3 votesLCS is super lame and boring... exact same champions every single game.... LLLAAAMMMEEE!!!!!!!!
Lord Phazanor 5 voteswho can't tell the difference between their Q and their ass
Bonjour ;)
OHminus13 votesmake pro play look interesting
Pro play is boring af. It's not fun to watch teams dance around baron for 5 minutes before one of them fucks up and baron goes to one team, leading to a game ending push.
Asterfix2 votesPro play is boring af. It's not fun to watch teams dance around baron for 5 minutes before one of them fucks up and baron goes to one team, leading to a game ending push.
Well this is the opinion of a few vs the millions that tune in to championships.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesMillions of idiots also watch football games where one team parks their bus infront of the goal while the other team tries to actually play the damn game doesn't make it less of a snoozefest.
FinalFlare2 votesThey're focused around pro play because that's what makes them money. Sure, hundreds of thousands of players buying skins helps to but that's what the skin team is for. The balancing team is there to make pro play look interesting so people tune in and they get that sweet ad revenue. The only thing we can do is adapt or quit. They have no intention of balancing around regular players because we aren't crucial to their survival. In a way it's good at filtering out players that lucked their way into higher elo's but it also royally screws average players trying to climb.
What differentiates Riot from other nobody developers is the same thing that differentiates Blizzard from other developers. They have a foothold in the genre. LoL has had more than 8x as many players as other MOBAs for a while. The game is akin to a gambling addiction. "Will I get carried this game? Will I get a team of dullards who can't tell the difference between their Q and their ass? Who knows! Guess I better roll the dice." You feel good when you win and you want to win when you lose.
That's my take on it anyways.
Thing is, the money from micro transactions is nothing to scoff at. Riot Games is first and foremost a business, and businesses want to make as much money as possible. Catering only to the pro scene is such a terrible idea because it alienates thier player base, like the Kench nerf, in organized pro play he the nerf was justified, though in unorganized play ala solo/duo and flex it was kicking Kench while he was down, with about a 46% winrate. I agree they need to make balance changes for pro play, but they really need to keep ranked play in mind other wise LoL will start to tank, losing money from micro transactions.
Larriet1 votesThey have no intention of balancing around regular players
How can you say this with a straight face while there are so many champions who are stupidly weak in high-level play because if they were any stronger they would utterly dominate lower-level play? Champions like Garen and Master Yi come to mind.
TotalJerk12 votesNo. You should be nice because they are human fucking beings and this is a game. Do you walk into to Wal-Mart and screech about how stupid the employees are and how much you hate them because the item you wanted was on the wrong shelf? It's okay to criticize, but you are NEVER entitled to be a dick.
Anatera8 votesNo. You should be nice because they are human fucking beings and this is a game. Do you walk into to Wal-Mart and screech about how stupid the employees are and how much you hate them because the item you wanted was on the wrong shelf? It's okay to criticize, but you are NEVER entitled to be a dick.
There have been plenty of people who have been "nice" about their criticism to Riot. They were ignored.
Leetri8 votesAnd that justifies being an asshole how? You think being rude is magically gonna make Riot listen?
AirKingNeo4 votesYes, it does. French people overthrew the country because the king refused to fix anything when they were being nice.
OHminus2 votesName doesn't check out, gonna have to give the downvote
AirKingNeo2 votesitem you wanted was on the wrong shelf?
Pretty sure league has had bigger fuckups than that. Wal-Marts are big and things can get lost easily.
This is a fucking video game. It's a very controllable environment.
Starcraft243ver8 votesinstead of just a balance team more concerned with data, graphs and 50% than anything else.
Yeah riot, please, stop using FACTS and NUMBERS to balance your game, why not take a random dude on boards and ask him to change whatever numbers need to be changed ? It worked quite well with skarner.
And no, riot do not owe you anything, you came here because they are doing a good job (or because you are stupid, because I dont see any reason you would invest time and money in a bad game).
If you are not happy, all you have to do is leave. Show them you are not happy by fucking leaving, not talking. Talking and keep playing is childish.
DW Diana2 votesYeah riot, please, stop using FACTS and NUMBERS to balance your game, why not take a random dude on boards and ask him to change whatever numbers need to be changed ? It worked quite well with skarner.
And no, riot do not owe you anything, you came here because they are doing a good job (or because you are stupid, because I dont see any reason you would invest time and money in a bad game).
If you are not happy, all you have to do is leave. Show them you are not happy by fucking leaving, not talking. Talking and keep playing is childish.
We do owe riot for the game, like I owe virgin for my broadband. Does that mean they don't also owe their customers? Does it mean virgin don't listen to their customers to ensure they are being looked after? Riot are a company that makes money of each and every one of us, whether we buy rp or not. They are currently focused entirely on their bottom line and forgetting that as a multi-million dollor company they need to look after their customers.
I'm not a game maker but I am the head of customer service for a multi-million pound (probably billion if you go by the American billion) company who has beta tested games for 17 years, including some of the largest and well known games in the world.
Anatera3 votesYeah riot, please, stop using FACTS and NUMBERS to balance your game, why not take a random dude on boards and ask him to change whatever numbers need to be changed ? It worked quite well with skarner.
And no, riot do not owe you anything, you came here because they are doing a good job (or because you are stupid, because I dont see any reason you would invest time and money in a bad game).
If you are not happy, all you have to do is leave. Show them you are not happy by fucking leaving, not talking. Talking and keep playing is childish.
This is a dumb response. When people leave they typically leave for good. How is that in Riot's benefit? And not everyone can "just leave." Some people have invested money, time and relationships into the game. "Just leave" is a solution given by someone who refuses to understand that the situation is complicated and would rather see everything in black and white. The world is not a big red skittle. There are people who are torn by the decision to play and not to play. And your idea that decisions can be made entirely by numbers is ignorant too. This is a game. Whether or not it's fun counts too. Feelings count too.
Starcraft243ver1 votesThe question is :
let's imagine for one second that the people leaving do it for the same reason.
How many other people would leave because they wouldnt like :
Run the numbers if you can :).
This is a game. Whether or not it's fun counts too. Feelings count too.
These are just numbers as well.
CatSith3 votesJust because a group of people doesn't agree with their decisions in balance changes doesn't mean they are incorrect. If anything, I find the community here is spoiled. Riot listens to their community more than most companies and this is from a free to play game.
FilDaFunk1 votesYou're talking as if no one is spending any money on this game.
Craft Zeppelin2 votesIf they are so focused on said "tournaments" why the hell there are teemo supports and MF supports that get away feeding their arses while I get penalized for pointing it out its silly to pick them against Khazix or J4.
Starcraft243ver5 votesBecause you dont punish people for being stupid or being bad.
You punish people for breaking the rules. And the rules say you can't harass.
Craft Zeppelin1 votesBecause you dont punish people for being stupid or being bad.
You punish people for breaking the rules. And the rules say you can't harass.
SIGHHHHHH I already knew that answer.
Zed genius2 votesBut they do make things that make sense to the players. When mages get nerfed, mage mains will cry on boards, when adc's gets nerfed,so will adc's, when assassins got nerfed reworked assassin players complained. The game is both riot's and the players',that's 100% true, but you can't back up the fact that they do not do things that help the players just because people spam rage posts here lol
FilDaFunk2 votesmaybe they should do things that actually make sense to the player too, instead of just a balance team more concerned with data, graphs and 50% than anything else.
Hey! Don't diss graphs.
They're looking at what has low winrate and buffing them, rather than looking at high winrate and nerfing. The balance team HAS to base their decisions on something reliable, which is maths.
remakoro1 votesYea gotta keep the powercreep.
Everyone gets a buff.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesI wonder why kai'sa then is still disgustingly overpowered. Ah yeah riots infamous numbers are something entirely different. Maybe riot should start playing their own damn game to realize how shit it is.
AgentBlack2 votesThey need the playerbase to fund the game, not help balance it. Most of the threads on this board are circlejerking garbage, and the threads with actual suggestions are usually naive as hell with no basis in game design. Unfortunately, instead of realizing this, players just make the same poor suggestions louder and more often.
warpenguin5552 votesThey should publish their data sometimes, even if it's a rare occurrence. It wouldn't stop all the complaining, but at least it could let us see the reasoning behind some of the changes. Some of the changes we see as random might make perfect sense to them, but because we can't see everything they do, we can't make sense of it. Publishing their data would be a good way to bridge that gap.
T4underbolt1 votesTheir data is useless. Old Leblanc with silence had 45% winrate. I guess she should have been massively buffed. Oh... Apperantly not so much. Win rate is just one of the meaningless stats. When you look at problems the mix of different stats all together can highlight the potential problem but doesn't really have to and something that cant be mirrored by data can get overlooked easily.
Pika Fox2 votesPlayers are good at knowing when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at knowing what that problem is, and even worse at telling you how to fix it.
You let the players tell you when they think theres an issue, and thats it. After that, you sift out 99.99999% of what theyre saying because its useless drivel ("ADCs are OP"), or you just ignore them altogether.
FurriesAreHot1 votesThe thing is, the boards is a minority of the player base, and whenever any Change is made, the people who don’t like it get loud and then people join the crowd until we reach where we are currently.
T4underbolt1 votesLet me explain you something. More than half of the players if not 3/4 are casuals who don't give a damn about what changes are done to the game as long as they can play it. The. There is 1/4 that contains: casuals and noobies who want to climb and win games do flashy oneshots without effort, veteran players who want this game to be properly balanced, pros and streamers. Now the problem is that riot catheter to casuals that are in that 1/4 of players and flip off veterans because there are less veterans than casuals. Additionally how does even riot checks if players like the game. I never seen any real survey that would ask.about state of the game. And even if it was, most of the players which is 3/4 wouldn't even care to speak on this matter and riot would take this as "most community thinks it's fine".
FurriesAreHot1 votesCan I ask how any of this correlates to my comment?
T4underbolt1 votesCan I ask how any of this correlates to my comment?
It is. You say that boards is minority. I say it is not because you should only count in people that care about the game. Most of casuals could have a champ that has 100% max hp true DMG skillshot at lvl 1 and would be fine with it. So that amjority you talk about is non existent.
FurriesAreHot1 votesI’m pretty sure if someone plays the game regularly they care about it to some extent. The boards is less than 0.1% of the playerbase, I highly, highly doubt that the other 99.99% don’t care about the game.
Grokmir1 votesThey can't just do whatever players want. There's literally millions of players across the world who play league and they all have WILDLY differing opinions on balance and game changes.
And even if you don't like a change, that doesn't make it a bad change. Even if there are dozens of people complaining on the boards about a change, that still doesn't make it a bad one.
I'd love it if they just straight up deleted lulu from the game, but that doesn't mean they should actually do it.
And there's not a single change that riot has made that SOME PLAYERS did not agree with. So which players should they listen to? The ones in favor of the change or the ones against it? They can't please everyone.
Larriet1 votesinstead of just a balance team more concerned with data, graphs and 50% than anything else.
I get what you're trying to say, but that ISN'T how they do things AT ALL. There have been so many champions with high winrates they consider to be in a healthy spot, and a lot of champs with extremely low winrates they consider to be fine, too. Where did you get the idea they want everything at 50%?
iGaveUpAtLast1 votesMaybe if the front page wasn't full of whiney complaints and rude posts they'd start caring more? Not trying to sound bitchy here but complaints without actual criticism will not be answered and I'd not even bother to open threads that have "Fuck your shitty company" in the title. There is a lot of really good criticism on the boards but those posts get overshadowed by the amount of sheer complaints without actual content. As the consumer you always have the right to voice criticism if you feel like a product isn't good enough but you should still behave like a decent human being. This community is so freaking negative and most threads contain outbursts of anger and frustration rather than reasonable arguments. If this community wants Riot to listen then they need to stop the hissy fits and deliver some substance because Riot probably won't bother to find the needle in the haystack.
Anatera1 votesMaybe if the front page wasn't full of whiney complaints and rude posts they'd start caring more? Not trying to sound bitchy here but complaints without actual criticism will not be answered and I'd not even bother to open threads that have "Fuck your shitty company" in the title. There is a lot of really good criticism on the boards but those posts get overshadowed by the amount of sheer complaints without actual content. As the consumer you always have the right to voice criticism if you feel like a product isn't good enough but you should still behave like a decent human being. This community is so freaking negative and most threads contain outbursts of anger and frustration rather than reasonable arguments. If this community wants Riot to listen then they need to stop the hissy fits and deliver some substance because Riot probably won't bother to find the needle in the haystack.
You act like the "nice" posts never existed. People only have so much patience for being nice.
iGaveUpAtLast1 votesAs I stated there are many "nice"/good posts on the boards and I don't mean that we should kiss Riot's ass or act like the world is all flowers and sunshine but Riot themselves said that they don't consider pure complaints because those don't contain anything they can work with. What I was trying to say is that I understand if Riot doesn't want to go through all the "useless" posts before they find a "useful" one. I understand that we all get frustrated and want to vent from time to time but before you go on the boards and write yet another "ADC's are OP omg Riot is so shitty fix it" post take a step back, calm down and think of why you believe ADC's are OP and give them something to work with. Heck if you want to complain then open up a big "let's complain" thread, one for every type of complaint like "I hate ADC's" or "I hate Ahri skins" and let people vent there. Usually the answers you get are the same anyway so it's not like you need 50 posts like this in a row. That way people could still complain when they're angry but won't overshadow posts that Riot can work with. If you want to be treated with respect you have to treat others with respect and maybe Riot would communicate more if the community gave them something to communicate about. Both Riot and the community are at fault here and BOTH could really improve their way of communicating.