reminder that steraks gage needs to be reverted to base ad increase (and sheen items reworked)

Critmaster Garen··2 votes·1,564 views

when item 3053 was introduced to the game it was meant to be a strong ad+health item on juggernauts, and nothing more than a situational defensive item on champions like Jax Fiora Irelia Camille and other mobile skirmishers.

it was designed to increase base ad to feed into auto attacks and ability damage of juggernauts who were specifically changed to scale with total ad values.

bonus ad scaling skirmishers could not empower their abilities with the item, which made this much less effective offensive choice, and more of a defensive item for them.

since steraks gage was changed to grant bonus ad, it feeds into all the ability damage of skirmishers, like Fiora passive and became way too good of an item on them.

most skirmishers have adopted either item 3053 or item 3748 or both into their core builds and became mobile, versatile juggernauts.

change back steraks gage and rework sheen instead to avoid trigage abuse, and do it before you start balancing these champions around those items.

24 Comments

Illabethe3 votes

You do realize most Juggernauts scale Bonus AD too, right?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

You do realize most Juggernauts scale Bonus AD too, right?

most of them and their abilities scale with total ad, not bonus ad.

theyre were specifically changed that way in season 5 because of steraks gage, and because they tend to have the highest base ad in the game to be able to carry with defensive builds.

there are only singular cases like Darius ult that scales with bonus ad because of the large ad bonus off his passive. but everything else scales with total ad.

Darius ult could literally just be changed by entirely removing the base damage, and making it scale with total ad aswell, which means his base ad would just provide the same base damage to the ult as the flat damage currently.

this is why steraks gage was made that way.

they put a system in place to make juggernaut items noticably more powerful on juggernauts, and then they broke it.

Illabethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f8KIbe5W,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-09T19:44:26.589+0000)

most of them and their abilities scale with total ad, not bonus ad.

theyre were specifically changed that way.

there are only some cases like Darius ult that scales with bonus ad because of the large ad bonus off his passive. but everything else scales with total ad.

this is why steraks gage was made that way.

they put a system in place to make juggernaut items noticably more powerful on juggernauts, and then they broke it.

Darius's Passive also scales Bonus.

Also, everything that scales TOTAL AD is indifferent to the change in Steraks, because that includes Base And Bonus.

In other words, nothing changed for champs it was originally designed for. It was just opened up as an "all melee" item.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Darius's Passive also scales Bonus.

Also, everything that scales TOTAL AD is indifferent to the change in Steraks, because that includes Base And Bonus.

In other words, nothing changed for champs it was originally designed for. It was just opened up as an "all melee" item.

the problem isnt that steraks gage became weaker on juggernauts. steraks gage and titanic hydra arent supposed to be open to every melee champion.

the problem is that these items are too strong on other champions now. the difference in effectiveness between a steraks gage on Irelia and Darius is extremely small after this change.

non juggernauts with more versatile kits became almost as strong as juggernauts in raw melee power because theyre stacking their items.

champions like Fiora Jax Irelia Yasuo and others are supposed to rely on their kit inbuilt outplay tools to dodge teamfight aoe and burst. but instead they become just or almost as tanky as juggers.

Yorick and Irelia are building practically the same items, and these items are almost equally strong on both champions. but irelia has the more powerful kit.

Illabethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f8KIbe5W,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T19:50:29.780+0000)

the problem isnt that steraks gage became weaker on juggernauts. steraks gage and titanic hydra arent supposed to be open to every melee champion.

the problem is that these items are too strong on other champions now. the difference in effectiveness between a steraks gage on Irelia and Darius is extremely small after this change.

non juggernauts with more versatile kits became almost as strong as juggernauts in raw melee power because theyre stacking their items.

champions like Fiora Jax Irelia Yasuo and others are supposed to rely on their kit inbuilt outplay tools to dodge teamfight aoe and burst. but instead they become just or almost as tanky as juggers.

Yorick and Irelia are building practically the same items, and these items are almost equally strong on both champions. but irelia has the more powerful kit.

There you go. That's the conversation I've been trying to coax out.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

There you go. That's the conversation I've been trying to coax out.

wat. i made this clear from the start. its literally in my opening post.

i didnt make the argument of jugger items shouldnt be as strong on skirmishers as on juggers because skirmishers have the more powerful kits, but i did say that i disaprove that the steraks gage change made the item more powerful on those champions.

Dr Dog1 votes

and how would you rework sheen? keeping in mind ap users ofc

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f8KIbe5W,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-09T19:12:31.359+0000)

and how would you rework sheen? keeping in mind ap users ofc

how does sheen affect ap users outside of item 3100 which literally wouldnt change at all since it has an entirely different scaling? lichbanes proc scales with ap, and not with base ad, which was the source of the interaction with steraks.

i would change item 3057 and its items to something like

10% total ad + 5 damage/lvl, 60% effective for ranged champions (not neccessarily exact numbers)

item 3078 would just get increased values on the level scaling/total ad

item 3025 as a tank item would scale with % of armor+mr + damage/lvl

another option would be to literally just change sheen damage to be calculated before base ad increases.

Dr Dog1 votes

by the ap in mind thing i ment people like fizz and such that get a sheen powerspike, i ment keeping sheen good for ap users on its own as not to ruin anyones powerspike, tho i do like the ideas

Selegun1 votes

While I can feel you that sheen items need a change I must recommend you go read what lichbane actually does. To save you the time it draws on both base AD and total AP

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

While I can feel you that sheen items need a change I must recommend you go read what lichbane actually does. To save you the time it draws on both base AD and total AP

i overlooked that part, but that could be replaced with a level scaling aswell.

item 3057 scaling is basically nothing but a level scaling anyway.

every champion has a fixed base ad and base ad/lvl growth. melee champions tend to have higher base ad than ranged champions.

so why not entirely replace sheens scaling with a level scaling and a small penalty for ranged champions?

Selegun1 votes

It's all good, I can't honestly remember the last time I used lichbane and only barely remembered myself.

I like the idea of linking the proc to level. Helps keep the scaling smooth if I'm looking at it right. What are your thoughts on using completed items as a multiplier of sorts so that the damage could scale with both level and gold? A rough idea would be something like 5 damage per level multiplied by each full build item. Make the item feel like the end game it's ment for rather than be so strong early.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It's all good, I can't honestly remember the last time I used lichbane and only barely remembered myself.

I like the idea of linking the proc to level. Helps keep the scaling smooth if I'm looking at it right. What are your thoughts on using completed items as a multiplier of sorts so that the damage could scale with both level and gold? A rough idea would be something like 5 damage per level multiplied by each full build item. Make the item feel like the end game it's ment for rather than be so strong early.

isnt that technically what

item 3005 and steraks shield passive do? they scale off other items.

Selegun1 votes

Kinda, though Atma's didn't get added to summoners rift did it?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Kinda, though Atma's didn't get added to summoners rift did it?

no it didnt. we really need it though.

Selegun1 votes

That would be fun to see in the game for sure. As much as I would like to see it on the rift I think I might like to see some more interesting defensive items first.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

while were at it, make Gangplank parrley count as a ranged basic attack instead of a melee basic attack, so klepto, grasp and some items dont have to be balanced purely around Ezreal and Gangplank existence.

yes, i understand that would nerf gp in his current state, but he could get that power back in some other shape, like increase the armor pen on his barrels again. its just to reduce impact of ape mode q spamming from range in lane and make barrel combos more rewarding instead.

Dr Dog1 votes

i dunno how id feel about that one, gp is already pretty dogshit because of the adc item changes gimping him late game to the point he actually falls off more from mid game now as people get resistances and his dmg cant keep up, tho i like the armor pen thing thats much needed and personally i think a good buff would be to lower his barrel cds early game so he doesnt just insta lose every lane because of their not only slow hp loss but giant cd

Moody P1 votes

Make steraks give armor and readjust juggernaut base damage

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f8KIbe5W,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-09T22:23:31.451+0000)

Make steraks give armor and readjust juggernaut base damage

i mean. that could work.

without the ad investment, it would make the item pretty crazy on sion and chogath though. not that sion cant already comfortably build it.

but changing it back to a base ad increase would at least keep it fighter specific. (sions abilities scale with bonus ad if im not mistaken).

edit.: nvm. sions q scales with total ad. but his ult scales off bonus ad. so at least there would be some less synergy with his kit than currently.

Moody P1 votes

juggernauts are meant to be high durability champs, on par if not situationally superior to tanks. currently tankiness is kind of a joke but even pre-conq juggs are sitting on almost pure HP builds most of the time. historically speaking the most successful designs are the ones who don't need to snowball into ungodly amounts of AD and can sit on one or no damage items to still remain a threat all game long

mundo, olaf, cho'gath if you stretch to count him, but also nasus before season 3 gutting, urgot right now, volibear in the rare occasion he's not been dumpstered randomly has actually seen pro quite a bit. it'd also make the item palatable for the entire juggernaut roster, because they all enjoy these stats; granted it would be a fairly big hit to Illaoi who is almost entirely reliant on her AD ratios to spike hard into mid game, but a good chunk of juggs don't even buy sterak's because they don't have the AD scaling to justify the price tag (or are just so bad you never see them picked to begin with)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f8KIbe5W,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T22:45:32.620+0000)

juggernauts are meant to be high durability champs, on par if not situationally superior to tanks. currently tankiness is kind of a joke but even pre-conq juggs are sitting on almost pure HP builds most of the time. historically speaking the most successful designs are the ones who don't need to snowball into ungodly amounts of AD and can sit on one or no damage items to still remain a threat all game long

mundo, olaf, cho'gath if you stretch to count him, but also nasus before season 3 gutting, urgot right now, volibear in the rare occasion he's not been dumpstered randomly has actually seen pro quite a bit. it'd also make the item palatable for the entire juggernaut roster, because they all enjoy these stats; granted it would be a fairly big hit to Illaoi who is almost entirely reliant on her AD ratios to spike hard into mid game, but a good chunk of juggs don't even buy sterak's because they don't have the AD scaling to justify the price tag (or are just so bad you never see them picked to begin with)

im fine with anything that works.

if turning steraks gage into a full defensive item and buffing juggernaut base damage/lvl scaling by ~70 at lvl 18 can help, then i dont see a reason why not.

though if sheen was reworked, the idea was also adding item 3005 with a base ad increase, and changing other jugger items item 3748 item 3022 to base ad increases aswell.

the end goal was really to have a bunch of jugger items in the game than arent easy to pick up for other champions.

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