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Thoughts on Malzahar

Eedat··36 votes·3,001 views

We've had a bit of time since his nerfs and I wanted to point something out. First off, he's at a 55% win rate. You can check here at op.gg and here at champion.gg. Its pretty obvious that he's still very overtuned. However, I wanted to address a problem we saw after his rework thats happening again.

His passive is eating up too much of his power budget.

We saw this after his rework. His passive being so strong and limiting potential counterplay is going to lead to the rest of Malz's kit getting trashed again.

If we want Malz to stay an AP carry Midlaner, the passive has to go. I know a lot of people dont want this, but we've been here before and its going to happen again. His damage is going to get nerfed over and over again to balance out the rest of his kit. This is going to force him out of the mid lane role again.

Malz is going to have to give up either damage or utility. I think giving up the utility of his passive is the best route to continue being a Midlaner. You don't have to like it, but you Malz players have already lived through the alternative. I think this is the best way to save him from Bot Lane.

tl;dr Instead of nerfing Malz's damage again, please consider doing something with his passive so his MIdlane viability isn't destroyed

76 Comments

Thresh Outta Fux25 votes

As an old Malz player;

Fuck that shield.

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thresh Outta Fux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f63uEzBP,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-21T01:18:11.620+0000)

As an old Malz player;

Fuck that shield.

^^^

Starting with a Banshee's Veil at lv1 on a character that can hold people still to death is ridiculous.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

But......if his passive is removed then my strategy to get free wins against any assassins with it + item 3802 item 3102 rush will fail :(

I have a 93% winrate with it.

....

It might actually be slightly OP now that i really think about it.

KitSun91 votes

Slightly... '_'

Thefrostyviking1 votes

You drive a hard bargain, i´ll settle for "somewhat" and i won't budge a single step further >.<

Okuma11 votes

His current passive is also quite difficult to balance, but compensating with nerfing his dmg output is wrong imo.

iTaLenTZ11 votes

A good Malzahar never needed that passive to begin with. It was a top-down decision forced upon us by Repertoir. As a used-to-be main Malzahar I say please remove his passive. His old passive was a lot more fun revolving micromanagement of your spells and voidlings. In lane it added a lot of decisionmaking and separated the good from the bad Malz players.

deadlychuck4 votes

But you can't have a learning curve to champion, a player should be able to google a build and then utilize every feature of the champion by their 3rd or 4th game.

At least that seems to be the approach riot has taken to their champion designs, adding stupid amounts of passives with very simplistic player input.

ZyniX8 votes

Eh it was just an excuse to nerf his damage. No malzahar player wanted it. Riot is just obsessed with flashy champions and malzahar tells them all to sit the fuck down and stop moving.

OP Garen Support1 votes

Exactly cant say it any better.

Ultrios10 votes

I have a couple problems with current malzahar.

  1. the voidlings spawn on top of you, meaning they take just forever to actually walk up and hit something. I really dislike this. This means malz is inherently MUCH better at kiting than chasing. It's really irritating due to point number 2.

  2. the voidlings have such low HP pools that at all stages of the game, they die from anything instantly. I'm fine with autoattacks or turret shots killing them instantly, but currently any aoe ability or incident aoe from any teamfighting kills the voidlings instantly. Even a Janna tornado kills them instantly. Why even give them HP pools at this point? Even if you max them first, they die in one shot from any ability. Even at the final stages of the game. At all stages of the game they fall over from anything at all. Just make them instantly die if anything touches them. That is how they work basically right now. So you're not really getting anything out of the voidlings EXCEPT if you're kiting AND you have rylai's. They spawn, they start walking up, they usually die before hitting anything.

This means malz is absolutely pigeonholed into building rylai's every game. Even then, the voidlings are pretty junk. It's not that there is counterplay, it's that the voidlings get accidentally deleted no matter what during a teamfight. Theyre really just pretty useless right now. And it doesn't matter if you summon 1,2, or 3. They're dead usually before they AA anything.

I'd much rather see them be a useful and interactive part of the kit. As it stands right now, all your damage comes from Q (poke and cc during teamfights) and R. Your E does damage, but its over time and its just not as effective as most midlaners core spells should be. It's ok, it slows, it's fluff. IDK you're not gonna kill anyone but a low HP squishy with it.

TBH I'd love for the voidlings to be a core part of the damage, and the ult (suppress) be a cc for your voidlings and E to do the work. They were headed in the right direction. Where they are right now is relying on Q, R, and to a lesser extent E. You're only maxing E in lane for efficient waveclear and pressure/shove.

LadyRenly9 votes

Id like to see the passive gutted so his abilities can remain in tact

I love playing Malzahar, but I don't even like the shield

J Epstein9 votes

almost all current malz players hate the shield.

lose the shield.

OP Garen Support1 votes

Shield is especially useless since anything can turn it off. Meanwhile he is immobile and cant ward side lanes because Riot removed the 75 gold ward item and the wars upgrade from the game

Paroe9 votes

@thread If malzahars passive shield is removed then he needs his base stat nerfs reverted. Theres no reason for an immobile mage with one AoE burst ability to have such low MS and attack range if he isnt very safe.

Ill also reiterate something ive said since the beginning; Make malzahars passive a spell blade that scales with AP/level and makes his voidlings target whoever he hits if malefic visions is down. Alternately, the idea of making his passive something that buffs stats based on level would be interesting... Voidlings getting better over the course of the game, base MS increasing over the course of the game. Perhaps even a magic shield that scales with AP like a malphite passive would be interesting too.

Stalinium3 votes

Voidlings not dying to one fucking auto would be incredibly, incredibly nice...

Voluug131 votes

Voidlings not being an enforced way to reduce Malz's reliable damage could be fantastic.

ClatoVerataNicto7 votes

His shield should be replaced. It would really make sense if the voidlings were the passive instead of an ability, because they feel really clunky to use right now. This way we could give him another ability.

Voluug134 votes

How about we move the R pool to his W, buff R flat dmg and ratio?

Totally not a revert lmao

ClatoVerataNicto1 votes

You catch on quick young grasshopper.

Salson4 votes

Honestly, he'll never be healthy until they make his ult a skillshot.

General Esdeath 9 votes

His ult is fine, it's easy to counter and makes him immobile for the duration and an easy target.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

the only means to counter it is item 3140.

General Esdeath 5 votes

Or any CC from the team, a silence, a Kassadin Q.

TwitchInMyPants5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f63uEzBP,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-06-21T04:17:50.353+0000)

the only means to counter it is item 3140.

Or you can try not being alone or keeping note of the range

Its a channel, cc breaks it. He also holds himself still along with his target, he's exposed to all dmg for 3s. Malz has always had his ult and it's been fair, the passive shield just means ccing him is way harder now and removing that gives more windows to mess with his R.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Or you can try not being alone or keeping note of the range

I already know how to play ty. I don't lose against malz. But i know what's fair or not. His ult isnt. Just think about it, if u are a melee what's ur weapon against his ult ? nothing but item 3140 (1300 gold).

Malz has always had his ult and it's been fair,

It was never fair to begin. And he always had it don't prove anything.

Voluug132 votes

if u are a melee what's ur weapon against his ult

Do nothing, because he counterpicked you. His entire niche is being an anti-assassin anti-dive champion.

King of Mongoose2 votes

lmao

ZyniX3 votes

Are you kidding? I have been begging Riot to get rid of that crutch of a passive forever. His old passive required forethought (or a bit of luck) and could even be used to block skill shots. He even felt more fun being a vulnerable mage when you succeeded regardless.

Cosmic Warper3 votes

The passive needs to be changed to allow him to actually survive as a battle mage in an extended fight. That shield is too polarizing.

Pater Gascoigne3 votes

Honestly? Just full revert him. AD champion always countered him hard with QSS. It were the mages that had problems against him, because Banshees wasn't an option. Now that Banshees has been reworked and made into a core AP item, I don't see how old Malzahar would be unhealthy for the game. (Afk farming with E isn't really an argument since pretty much any midlaner has an instant waveclear spell)

General Esdeath 1 votes

I don't think he's weak at all right now, and I'm glad the old Malz is pretty much back with controllable voidling spawns.

The Deckowner5 votes

OP isn't saying he is weak, but rather being worried about the eventual nerfs to his damage due to his passive taking up a large portion of his power budget.

Voluug132 votes

with controllable voidling spawns.

This is actually a design issue thought.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

My issue isn't only his passive... but more important his stupid and point & click root is all but fair

Paroe6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f63uEzBP,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-06-21T04:15:17.125+0000)

My issue isn't only his passive... but more important his stupid and point & click root is all but fair

Its self CC. How can you say self CC isnt fair? In a 1v1 its used as an execute. In a team fight hes very likely to get blown the frag up if he ults at the wrong time or even in lane if the enemy jungler is nearby.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

How is it an execute? He just uses EWQR very quickly to 100-0 a squishy, no "execute" there.

Voluug133 votes

Because he cant ''use EWQR very quickly'' because he has cast times, and his combo is worthless if he starts with R. He isnt Annie either, his ''flash combo'' is not possible because he doesnt start with CC, he finishes with CC. The only ways he can reliably combo someone is that they are either diving him, or they facechecked a bush where he was in.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

But his R still isn't an execute.

Voluug132 votes

Semantics. The intent is the same, since he only uses his R to finish his combo and ensure you die.

deadlychuck6 votes
  1. it's not a root
  2. it's completely fair, even in a 1v1, so long as you're not on a champion with like 50% of their power budget in mobility.
rtbf2216514121 votes

Where did you get your "55% winrate" from? Challengers on op.gg have a 51% winrate.

He also switched from multiple rows back and forth.

Voluug131 votes

https://na.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid

55% winrate with 3.5% playrate.

Which is just about of his pre-rework stats, actually.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

https://na.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid

55% winrate with 3.5% playrate.

Which is just about of his pre-rework stats, actually.

You are looking only at mid. Again, he has been in multiple roles.

Mid, Jungle, Support.

If you are comparing last season overall roles to his mid now, there is a problem.

He was nerfed because lul solo baron alone without taking any damage whatsoever when the nerfs started.

Eedat3 votes

I literally linked two sources in the original post

?

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

I literally linked two sources in the original post

?

2 =/= 3 or 6

Eedat3 votes

Jesus Christ....

54% on leagueofgraphs

55% on op.gg

55% on champion.gg

55% on lolking

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

Jesus Christ....

54% on leagueofgraphs

55% on op.gg

55% on champion.gg

55% on lolking

What part of Jungle, support, and mid are different lanes did you not understand?

You have overall, mid, mid, and overall.

Malzahar used to be jungle as well and you want him nerfed. You need to look at his mid and jungle at least. Support is only secondary, but people have gotten used to using him as support.

He has a 51.39% winrate in challenger overall. It's not 55%.

He has 52.23% winrate including all other ranks.

The fact op.gg doesn't list his jungle winrate is disturbing.

Eedat2 votes

Malzahar used to be jungle as well

Nope.

Nobody played Jungle Malz. No site ever displayed Jungle Malz's stats because nobody outside of like 5 people ever played it. Your argument is ridiculous.

Thats like saying "Well Draven is strong right now but we shouldn't touch him because op.gg doesnt display his jungle win rate and I dont think he's good in the jungle"

Thats INSANE

I've provided data but its quite obvious you dont give a damn about an actual discussion and are desperately trying to cling to any completely insignificant detail you possibly can.

Challengers on op.gg have a 51% winrate.

Legitimately worthless. Its about as worthless as me saying

BUT MALZ HAS 63% WINRATE IN EUNE CHALLENGER! SO OP!

Nobody gives a damn about sample sizes of 50 because they're worthless

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

Nope.

Nobody played Jungle Malz. No site ever displayed Jungle Malz's stats because nobody outside of like 5 people ever played it. Your argument is ridiculous.

Thats like saying "Well Draven is strong right now but we shouldn't touch him because op.gg doesnt display his jungle win rate and I dont think he's good in the jungle"

Thats INSANE

I've provided data but its quite obvious you dont give a damn about an actual discussion and are desperately trying to cling to any completely insignificant detail you possibly can.

Legitimately worthless. Its about as worthless as me saying

BUT MALZ HAS 63% WINRATE IN EUNE CHALLENGER! SO OP!

Nobody gives a damn about sample sizes of 50 because they're worthless

Your troll is showing.

You do realize that pre-rework AD malzahar was a successful off-jungler? And you DO realize that post rework he became an objective focused jungler in an objective focused jungle?

Malzahar has always been an off jungler. It wasnt until the voidling nerfs (specifically they dont swarm) that he lost his ability to be a jungler in the first place. Right now his voidlings do no AD damage, so his AD variant (the one you would jungle with) isnt even viable because black cleaver was what made it work at all. Those sites dont show his jungle because he hasnt been jungle viable in a long time. Its not because he was NEVER a jungler. also, reason he was chosen as support was because his kit had VERY low ability to kill people alone and his ultimate was VERY useful in the botlane for locking down priority targets for the ADC to kill. After the base stat nerfs and the voidling speed/range nerfs he was in a limbo where he couldnt do ANYTHING competitively.

One last thing... Youre comparing a marksman with infinitely better itemization, better DPS, better tank, and better burst damage to a medium range mage with a single AoE ability who historically has been a counter pick to all-in champions.

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