Boards›Gameplay

The Reason the Cassiopaia Rework failed - and how to fix it

SaltyToplaneGoat··3 votes·555 views

Tl, dr.: Scrap everything, design the champ new based from the theme. Now, if this tl, dr confused you, I recommend reading the full post.

Ok, we all know that Cassio desperatly needed some love back then. Partly because she wasn't that poplar, but also because her kit back then didn't deliver her theme (poision, betrayal, Noxian Aristocraty, etc...) properly. Then the Rework happened with the aim to finally make Cassiopaia feel like she should feel like ingame. But instead... you totally failed. And why?

You clung too much to her old kit and mechanics even through they were suboptimal. If this kit would have delivered the theme perfectly, there would have been no need to rework it, no?

But nope, you estranged her kit EVEN MORE from her theme by giving her a low interaction, completly missing the mark, nonsential stacking passive wich is pretty much pure stat boost. Really? In what part of Cassiopaias lore have been "Stacks", "Power Drain" or even "Evolving" a point? Her main themes are

1.) Aristocraty (This is important for her personality, wich is the total opposite of Katarina's.) 2.) Betrayal, backstabbing (Unusual methods, not a champ deisgned for head on combat) 3.) Poision (Her main method of fighting) 4.) Her curse (this is by no means a simple empowerment. I wouldn't be surprised if in ancient Shurima this curse was a commonly used practice to mark those who have made themselves guilty of a major crime and were exiled from society.)

Also her Ultimate is more fit for a gorgon, but not for a poisionous snake. Not sure how that fits into the kit or if it should be scrapped too.

Another problem: The current Cassiopaia Rework is the biggest waste of potential that I have ever seen - mostly because the dude working on her simply thought of poison = DoT.

Now, let's all think for a moment, what IS poison? A substance that affects you negatively over time, the worse the higher the dosis and the longer you are exposed to it.

I would move the poision part to her passive, with her Q W and E abilties to be diferent ways to apply different poisions that can stack on the enemy.

Ability Example: Passie: Treacherous Poisions: "Every basic ability of Cassiopaia applies a special type of poision to the enemy (temporary stacks). The more poisioned (=the more stacks) an enemy has, the stronger the poisions effect will be. An target influenced by multiple posions at once will get stacks faster."

So, but for that we need different kinds of poision, no? First of all, I oppose the idea of a damage-only-poision. Like this she would just be another DoT mage like Swain or Malzahar. Also if she stops hitting you with spells it will take a short moment and the stacks will disappear again.

Note: Her skills WILL deal damage, but that shouldn't be the important factor (especially not for the poisions A and B I'll propose first here)

Possible Poision a) A slow, growing stronger the more infected the target is with the skill

Possible Poision b) Reduced Vision: starts rather weak, but can be stronger than a Noc ult at full stacks. (for the single, poisioned target ofc, no zapping out the entire map)

Now, that you have spent all your time slowly blinding and slowing your victim that it can't move, you do what? NO; YOU DON'T THROW GREEN GLOWING GIANT FANGS AT THEM! WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THAT?! That's not her style.

She will simply take her time and stab you in the back with a poisioned dagger while you don't even see it coming and then will leave you to croak, just like she did with Sivir.

Possible Poision c) Damage. Yes, I said something before, but hear me out on this: this is only short duration AND REALLY CLOSE RANGE, but deals damage the more stacks of poision A and B have been applied to the target - so you really need to make use of your skills.

I can see her gameplay pattern going like this: effective use of poisions to slowly render your opponent helpless and then execute them by using their limited vision and speed to get close and apply the most damaging poision.

Still have no idea how to include her ultimate into this kit, but I'm not even sure of the current one fits her theme. To make her a unique character, and less of a Medusa-wannabe, I propose scrapping it entirely and replace it with something to actually go along with her theme. But maybe that's just my opinion.

Her ultimate move should be also her strongest poision, maybe a pool or cloud of acid that eats everything away? An damaging AOE that starts getting really nasty after one or two moments, eating away resistances and armor? This could go along with the poisions I proposed before...

Ok guys, ideas?

8 Comments

Hello I am Bird2 votes

Maybe poison c would be similar to Kalista's spears, and that it would erase all stacks but deal tons of damage I wouldn't go with that ult, it seems a bit too overbearing. Instead I would go for a more assasin type ability, dealing more damage the lower the targets health is. But considering shes a dot mage, It might take a few seconds, dealing (x value) over 3 seconds. After 3 seconds, the poison takes further effect, slowing/stunning/silencing the enemy, for longer depending on the amount of stacks currently applied. This would create a choice, on weather to use your poison c first to get the enemy to lower health, possibly killing with the ult, but removing stacks of cc just incase they dont die, or would you use ult first, hoping you can keep up for the cc to take effect, to then use your poison c and finish the job. I dunno if this would be AOE or single target, and I'm definetley NOT inplying she needs to be a secondary assasin.

I dunno, just my Idea, tell me what ya think!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Now that you bring out Kalista... you would mean forcefully removing the poison stacks from the enemy, causing them damage? Too bad we already have someone who ahs this as a unique gameplay pattern... Twitch

Yes I have still no idea for the Ultimate, but her current one is just super random and kinda out of theme. It should be something that completes her "melt you down with poision" playpattern, a powerful tool, but on a high cooldown.

I thought of the "Poison C" ability as a really short ranged execute, not something you use to begin fights (mostly, since it's damage comes from the stacks it would be rather useless if used in any other way). Just like I wrote before, first use Poision A and B so you can get even close enough and then strike.

About what is AOE or single target... I think A and B can be AOE moves (although it should be different ones), the execute (poision move C) should be single target. High cooldown, some kind of reset when it kills the target.

Hmmm about what you said... if we look at her lore Cassiopaia is indeed an Assassin. Not the kind Katarina or Talon are - the two sneak behind you and slice your throat. Cassiopaia invites you to her house just to poision your tea ^^ Both methods are highly efficent in assassination.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

bump

Comeon guys... usually everyone's complaining, now I'm trying to starta discusion here and no one answers...

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Next time I should start threads when NA is actually awake... last desperate try to bump

Oleandervine1 votes

I've stated several fixes to her - have to say, I like the vision reduction as an add on. However, I disagree that damaging poisons shouldn't be part of her kit, as they are the most clear cut, obvious poison. My idea for her goes as follows:

Passive: Whenever Cassiopeia poisons a target who is already under the effects of the same poison, the damage is increased by 20%, maxing at 40%.

Q: Cassiopeia poisons a single target, dealing damage over 3 seconds.

W: Same as current, except with ratios and cool down tweaked.

E: Cassiopeia deals slight damage to a target. If the target is under the effects of a poison, the poison's duration is increased by another 2 seconds and is spread to nearby enemies.

R: Kept as is, except without the cast time

Cassiopeia's R is unique to her and ties her in with her Gorgon-esque features; it works because it helps her with making sure targets stay put for her poisons to work effectively. One of her biggest balancing issues now is the sheer amount of AOE poisons she has. If one of those (the spammable one) is slashed down to a single target spell with alternate ways of making it AOE, that would reduce her bullying presence and help make balancing her simpler.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

For clarity: the poisions will ALL do damage, but the main purpose won't be the damage but the effect that is slowly building up (at max stacks the vision reduce would be too broken if it would also fucntion as a primary damage spell)

Also I oppose single target spells on long range. Low counterplay and for that the numbers would habe to be tuned down, making her overall weaker (and lowering her skill cap.) The only point&click skill I'd propose (if it couldn't be solved better) was the "Poision C Ability"/The poision execute at a very close range.

While your proposed changes are still too close the the current kit in my opinion I like your idea of an ability to prolong the poisions effects, as well as "spreading" the poision.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

You clung too much to her old kit and mechanics even through they were suboptimal. If this kit would have delivered the theme perfectly, there would have been no need to rework it, no?

Riot has given their designers this as a strong directive since the Karma relaunch got so much hate. New Karma is way healthier and clearer than Old Karma, but she never became a popular champion and people are still salty years later about how Riot "deleted their champion".

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

There is a difference: Karma Rework back then took her old kit and replaced it with "generic mage kit that's a bit similiar to pre-rework-karma" with reduced complexity. I think back then they really did their best but just messed up. Even when "promoting" the Rework. They tried to keep the old theme but scrapped every visual aethetic somehow. (The fans are a good example for this. I bet if she would use them to cast after the rework people would have raged less)

I won't say that that Karma rework was unneeded since, even I who mained Karma preRework admit that, old karma was a hell to balance.

But what if they are not "removing" a theme when reworking, but are instead amplifying it, developing a new kit that actually delivers a unique character (what the new Karma kit completly lacks. Ok, her theme had been unclear before, but now it's just... well, meh, generic mage)

Riot Designers should LEARN from the past mistakes instead of being scared of them.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by SaltyToplaneGoat

As a 600k Soraka main the very existence of Senna is just a slap in the face
Gameplay198 comments
247
votes
Congratulations Riot, with this patch...
Gameplay252 comments
234
votes
Wouldn't it be possible to code the Nami Ult as a lot of tiny projectiles?
Gameplay141 comments
199
votes
The focus on Esport will be the downfall of this game.
Gameplay137 comments
175
votes
I do understand that Akali as an assassin needs massive damage and mobility, but...
Gameplay207 comments
170
votes
We shall remember the date as Caitlyn has become completly obsolte...
Gameplay201 comments
167
votes