Where's the clarity in Ivern's ult, Daisy?

Yuumi or Lose·Oct 11, 2016·110 votes·7,300 views

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Daisy's stats all scale AP but doesn't tell you exactly how much you're gaining from it. What? [zombie-brand-mindblown]

48 Comments

Critmaster GarenOct 11, 201643 votes

riot has the tendency to dumb down tooltips to the point that youre not knowing what the ability precisely does anymore.

in the past theyve kept this to the in client descriptions and the champion pages here on their homepage, while the ingame tooltips still contained all the details.

but ive noticed it in some cases happening on ingame tooltips more often aswell. they will just casually use phrases like "the enemy is briefly slowed" without actually telling you by how much and for how long.

KnalxzOct 11, 201612 votes

What? From what I've heard over the past 3 years people have been complaining that they write a short story about the champions abilities.

Critmaster GarenOct 11, 201631 votes

{quoted}

What? From what I've heard over the past 3 years people have been complaining that they write a short story about the champions abilities.

thats because champion abilities have become a lot more complex, than "point at this target and click for some damage and cc".

but ive also noticed cases like this, where theyre leaving crucial information entirely out of the tooltip.

VegathronOct 11, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ezmMnmPc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-11T07:30:43.224+0000)

thats because champion abilities have become a lot more complex, than "point at this target and click for some damage and cc".

but ive also noticed cases like this, where theyre leaving crucial information entirely out of the tooltip.

this. its ridiculous

LatetotheRaceOct 11, 201612 votes

IMO I'd rather have a short story than a non-informative half truth/tall tale.

dunkeroniOct 11, 20167 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mhkoDNhF_pU/VpbDo15B7mI/AAAAAAAA2tg/YWfb33zydtw/s640/je.jpg

KoKobotoOct 11, 20161 votes

I also feel, depending on who from Riot works on the tooltips you get different formats and information which is pretty stupid. All tooltips for all champions should follow a similar format

Velzard of KozOct 11, 20161 votes

Most irritating part. Someone writes magic damage, someone Magic Damage. Vel'Koz's tooltips got converted into the later form recently (If I remember correctly they weren't so before).

Velzard of KozOct 11, 20162 votes

What's your problem? I think Brief is very informative unit. It's named after its inventor, Jonathan Brief, who also came up with idea of an underwear type. One Brief is like 0.5 second, however don't get tricked, two Briefs can already be 2 seconds. It also depends on what converting scale you use, the European or the African one.

RedagaOct 11, 20163 votes

The stats are on the Wiki page http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ivern

also it would be good if Riot give her more AI. right now is nothing different than a second character that you have to almost fully control. if a target gets out of range or dies she just derps out and stand stills. she should at least be able to auto lock to a new target that is closer. then if there is non is when you should have to control her.

this also goes for the Q + R dash. if she is not engaged. even if she dash she wont attack unless you R + click

theArtifactsOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The stats are on the Wiki page http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ivern

also it would be good if Riot give her more AI. right now is nothing different than a second character that you have to almost fully control. if a target gets out of range or dies she just derps out and stand stills. she should at least be able to auto lock to a new target that is closer. then if there is non is when you should have to control her.

this also goes for the Q + R dash. if she is not engaged. even if she dash she wont attack unless you R + click

How smart do you expect a giant rock to be?

Rook LouxOct 11, 20161 votes

Atleast as smart as the ape playing the tree

RedagaOct 11, 20163 votes

thats offensive Malphite

theArtifactsOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

thats offensive

If Malphite is offended by a question I think he has illustrated my point xD

XosraOct 11, 20161 votes

Wow the ratios on her bonus armor are so low to be useless. At the average of maybe 400 ap you might get she will on have 40 bonus armor.

AmazoXOct 12, 20161 votes

Lets not forget you can smite Daisy.

RisenDarkKnightOct 11, 20161 votes

Dear god, I looked at the wiki, and those AP scalings are ridiculousy low. No wonder he has a 32% winrate. They could double ALL of Daisy's AP scalings and Ivern would still be super underpowered. Daisy is barely better with 1000 AP than normal in everything except DPS, and even then, a level 15 Ivern with 1000 AP probably still has a much weaker Daisy than a lvl 16 Ivern with 0 AP.

RedagaOct 12, 20162 votes

it gets worst when you realize Ivern has to build tank to be useful... going full AP not only still make him hit low (not even worth for peeling) but he is sooo squishy almost any other champs can out trade him whether is is long range or gets 100% mauled by bruisers or assassins.

my current best working build is item 1039 item 3742 item 3009 item 3152 ( item 3001 or item 3157 ) from that point changes are based on situation. if going ahead. then I can risk AP item mostly item 3089 and item 3285 . if not, keep going Tanky ( item 3065 / item 3110 ) and finish either item 3512 or item 3026 )

so you top AP is only about 150 AP to 400< AP at best.

FantasySniperOct 12, 20161 votes

The AP scaling is 19.92 / 22.99 / 26.05% for DPS. 50% AP for bonus health 5% AP for bonus resistances

Even assuming that her attack speed is halved with how much she has to chase, that's still a fuck-ton of scaling from AP.

RisenDarkKnightOct 12, 20161 votes

50% hp for health is terrrible. At most you get 1000 AP, but 90% of the time you will have less than 400, since you usually need to build pretty tanky. So if you have 300 AP, that's 150 hp. Daisy has 3500 HP, so with 300 AP you only get a 4% increase in hp. 4%!. With 1000 AP it's still only 500 HP or 14% increase. If Ivern invests in 1000 AP, which requires a ridiuous build with Mejais and Seraph's + Deathcap and probably an Infernal Drake, he should get more than a 14% increase in Daisy's HP. And the resistance bonuses give 15 Armor/MR for 300 AP and 50 Armor/MR for 1000 AP. 50 armor and MR does sound kind of nice, except by the time you get 1000 AP, the enemy carries will all have penetration items that negate a lot of the bonus resists.

Many AP scaling abilities triple in effectives for someone with 0 AP vs someone with 1000 AP, (I.E. a lux E that does 240 base damage does 840 damage with 1000 AP). It's just silly that going from lvl 15 to 16 grants 60 Armor/MR, 1500 HP, 20% attackspeed, and 50 damage, while getting 1000 AP basicly negligibly improves all of those except damage (which it helps) and attack speed (which doesn't have AP scaling).

Ivern's tooltip is pretty misleading when it says Daisy's defenses and damage scale off AP, because the damage does scale off AP, but the defense scaling is incredibly minor when compared to just leveling up to 11/16.

FantasySniperOct 12, 20161 votes

You get 125 / 182.5 / 287.5 effective health from 100 AP. And AP has a quadratic scaling on effective health.

Combine that with 19.92 / 22.99 / 26.05% AP scaling for DPS, Daisy gets beefier and stronger real fast.

The value of AP scaling is not determined by base values, it's based on the AP scaling.

RisenDarkKnightOct 13, 20161 votes

Yes the value of AP scaling is determined by base values. That's what everything is relative to. Whether you should go full tank Ivern or AP Ivern is entirely based on how good his AP ratios are. The AP ratios are completely meaningless without the context of Daisy's base stats and how just how good/useful Daisy is in general.

FantasySniperOct 13, 20161 votes

Most abilities increase their base values with level. You're saying that as the base value increases, the AP scaling is somehow worth less despite it never changing?

That's just wrong. You're not multiplying the base value with AP, you're only adding to it. The values are completely independent of each other and do not influence each other's value.

RisenDarkKnightOct 13, 20161 votes

I don't think you understand how items work in league of legends. Whether Ivern should build tank, 1000 AP build, AP with magic pen and ludens, or some mixture of both depends entirely on how good his base damages are relative to his AP ratios. If his base vaues are really high, he would have no real reason to build AP so he could build tank/CDR/magic pen. If his base values were low but AP ratios were high, tank Ivern wouldn't be very good because he would be dependent on AP to be useful.

By chosing to build a lot of AP ( item 3089 ) you are making a substantial tradeoff in build, getting a large amount of AP by sacrificing tankiness and usually other utility from items that have less than 100 AP. If doing so Doubled or Tripled Daisy's effective health that would be a worthy tradeoff because you'd get 2-3x the value out of Ivern's ult. But since it only provides a 14% increase in her HP (and around 50 armor/MR), there is little reason to invest in a high AP build since you can get a 3500 HP Daisy with 120 Armor/MR without investing in any AP.

If Daisy had only 500 HP to begin with, investing in 1000 AP to give her 500 more HP would be vital to Ivern's success. Going from 3500 to 4000 HP is a much less important.

FantasySniperOct 14, 20161 votes

I don't think you understand that certain item stats don't interact with base values.

Certain stats only contribute to scaling, so why are you measuring their worth when they have no interaction with base values?

Penetration interacts with base values. It increases all damage output by countering mitigation. AP doesn't interact with base values. Whatever damage it adds is entirely independent of base values.

Example: 100 + 10% AP vs. 5000 + 50% AP

Which AP scaling is better? Spoiler Alert! It's the second one. AP scaling is worth 5 times more than the first one, regardless of the fact that the base value is worth 50 times more than the first one.

You can say that "penetration and utility is worth more because high base damage compliments it." But "AP is worth less because of a high base damage." is flat out wrong.

And guess what? Ivern doesn't get anything out of Daisy by building utility, but he does get more tank and damage out of her by building AP.

Ergo, AP is worth a good amount to his ultimate no matter how high her base values are.

invisiblecat1Oct 11, 20162 votes

Just like how it doesn't tell you the percent slow on Gnar's E

MunchCrunchLunchOct 11, 20161 votes

just like tibbers u click on the pet to see

Corrupt BlissOct 11, 20162 votes

Tibbers is two part in damage: Summon, and continued.

dunkeroniOct 11, 20161 votes

I was confused by that as well. Since Riot seems to like making abilities more complex, I can't imaging why they wouldn't give any numbers about this one. Thet don't even state how long she lasts (60 seconds, as I understand it).

I can only imaging that they thought Ivern players wouldn't mind, since he's generally passive anyway, and people who play with the intent to watch a silly man talk about ducks probably don't care as much about the damage stats on a summoned minion.

SanKakUOct 11, 20161 votes

Edit: so my suspicion is that they accidentally put the player tooltips and spectator tooltips in the wrong places, or maybe just for that ability they did.

I literally just deleted most of the first part of the post and added this sentence because I got down-voted for not getting to the point I guess.

LatetotheRaceOct 11, 20161 votes

Nope

DrCyanideOct 11, 20161 votes

... you can see in the screenshot that he's not using the Spectator.

softest boyOct 11, 20161 votes

Probably because they don't want you to see how little your AP is effecting it... she kinda needs a slight buff in stats...

theArtifactsOct 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Probably because they don't want you to see how little your AP is effecting it... she kinda needs a slight buff in stats...

Daisy can be a boy too! Though I consider it gender-less as it is a giant rock golem.

5000000000000000Oct 11, 20168 votes

Wasn't Daisy referred to as a she in Ivern's lore?

theArtifactsOct 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't Daisy referred to as a she in Ivern's lore?

Quite possibly, I haven't read it all yet. It's still a giant rock golem that I'm sure has no vagina.

OmikayeOct 11, 20163 votes

Well Plants dont have vaginas and they can be male or female. So even if we dont know why Daisy is a she, I'm nearly 100% sure Ivern knows. And since he calls her a she, she is a she.

theArtifactsOct 11, 20162 votes

Y'all take this way too seriously.

RatbertOct 12, 20165 votes

I mean, you tried to derail the thread with a poorly researched statement.

theArtifactsOct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I mean, you tried to derail the thread with a poorly researched statement.

Actually the the thread is about clarity in the tooltip for Daisy. I was poking fun at the fact that it is a rock golem and rocks have no sexual organs regardless of what ivern refers to it as.

FantasySniperOct 12, 20162 votes

This is a game where void monsters with no known methods of reproduction have very distinct gender pronouns.

There's too much context to make the "assumed gender" joke.

DengedenOct 11, 20161 votes

I suppose you can click on Daisy once you summon her.

CrazyBear1987Oct 12, 20161 votes

I assume because Ivern is reasonably new its going to take the community to record and make a database on Daisy's stats.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_Wiki

Teridax68Oct 12, 20161 votes

As the person who recorded Daisy's stats and scalings on the wiki, I'm not too happy with how Riot just expects the community to pick up the slack when it comes to these things. It could have taken a Rioter five, maybe ten minutes to post the full list of Ivern's stats, ability numbers and scalings, instead it took the community several hours to get those same numbers through data mining or playtesting in custom games (and even then, the PBE usually locks up and slaps down a 2-person limit for customs a few hours after a champion's release/rework).

Beyond that, I think there's an ongoing issue with tooltips being stuck halfway between being too wordy for some, and not detailed enough for others: a person reading the tooltips just to get a basic idea of how an ability works is usually going to have to sift through a lot of colored numbers, which doesn't make for very clear presentation, and a player trying to look for the exact numbers on their champion has no way of immediately seeing their proper ratios using those same tooltips. We need different tooltip formats in addition to the standard one, with one short form and one long form.

CrazyBear1987Oct 12, 20161 votes

Wow, feelsbadman, good work tho. but yea, maybe Ivern's release with the Star Guardian skins and WORLDS was bad timing. As usual they are far from perfect and they desperately need a running start to keep up with community statistics.

KK SLIDEROct 19, 20161 votes

This seriously pissed me off to. Why can't i even see on the tooltip how much actual damage the pet even does.

Hilltop SunsetNov 2, 20161 votes

I completely agree with this: they need to make it more obvious just how your AP/Attack Speed is affecting Daisy, and what her stats are. In fact, there should be more clarity like this for every instance of a summon/clone so that players can know how their stats and item builds are affecting their summon/clone without having to take a 5 minute break from the game to jot down numbers and calculate results. For a game that prides itself on clarity, it sure missed a huge issue with this tooltip.