Dabox finally spoke out about the Veigar changes.

Yuumi or Lose·Feb 27, 2015·120 votes·16,955 views

For those of you who don't know who Dabox is, here you go. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dabox

He is considered the most iconic, well known Veigar player who ONLY played Veigar( Of course played someone else to fill a different role if needed). At one point he was Challenger top 10 from only playing Veigar. Not sure where he ranks now but he currently remains Challenger and ranks as #1 Veigar in the world. He finally spoke to another very good, well known Veigar player, SadisticVeigar, about the changes. Guess what?

Unplayable and unwinnable.

Here's the thread in which SadisticVeigar comments in.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2x6jw3/veigar_is_unplayable_after_nerfs_plat_veigar_main/

Is this what you really wanted, Riot?

Now ask yourselves, Veigar mains. Where is your god?

http://puu.sh/gdaWU/3554725a4f.jpg http://puu.sh/gdaYL/281efead59.jpg

Thank you Rrett for the chat.

Thank you One True Siren for the statistics.

135 Comments

WatchdaWorldBurnFeb 27, 201577 votes

My issue with the Veigar nerfs is more of the double standard apparent in Riot's balance philosophy. Why is it ok for other assassin/carries to be absurdly overpowered, cancerous and entirely unfair to play against (I'm looking at you Zed, Leblanc, Nidalee, Kalista and a few others), but all of a sudden it's necessary for Veigar to feel "fair" to his opponents. Riot balance team has gone on a spree of nerfing AP assassins/carries to the point of being unplayable and entirely unrewarding/frustrating in the past 1-2 years. They have entirely ignored or willfully ignored the real root problem, which is essentially unlimited, 0 REAL resource cost, out of control mobility/safety in the champion kits/new champion releases. Every new champion they release has more and more obscene mobility which they of course argue is "gated in a healthy way" but is obviously wildly out of control in the player's eyes. Meanwhile they continue to castrate the champions with no mobility/ older AP burst combo mechanics (I guess with the goal of force removing them from the meta). It seems to me their intent is to balance the game solely around ever increasing mobility. I would guess that they've essentially given up trying to balance the older immobile AP mages to be competitive in the current game and are just satisfied relegating them to "troll picks" or niche support picks.

I didn't play Veigar much, but when I did occasionally I really enjoyed him. Even though he was far from dominating or overpowered. In fact I felt I had less influence over then game when I played Veigar than when I played many other solo lane carries.

DFG removal already severely hurt Veigar's ability to solo carry. But then to gut an iconic champion like that, totally destroying his E (one of his most enjoyable abilities) and nerfing everything else about his kit, was just uncalled for, disrespectful to their player base, and is resented by more than just a few players. Again, the only logical reason I can come up for as to why they would take such action is he was especially good against Riot's beloved out of control mobility champions. Can't have players picking a champion specifically to counter all these unfun, cancerous, frustrating hyper mobility carries now can we. Easier to just make no one want to play Veigar and balance the game around, "How much obscene mobility do we give to every champion".

Very sad.

InsaneSamuraiFeb 27, 201510 votes

Its good for the game if they start applying the logic to all champs. If they just keep being biased toward some "un-fun" champs, but never nerf a handful of obvious top offenders then it's just a random slap in the face :P

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 27, 20153 votes

I think the Bard is going to be the first step away from the no risk mobility, because since it's a one way portal, and since EVERYONE can freaking travel through the portal, it won't be asure fire wescape tool, especially if Bard only has just enough mana to use the portal.

AtomBlast2Feb 27, 20157 votes

They want every champion to be "fun" to play against and to be able to respond to their abilities. That is a good way of thinking but I feel like it's impossible to achieve that, especially that champion designs vary wildly from 2009 do 2015. Maybe a FULL overhaul of every single champion released so far would result in better balance but that would take them years

ThryaleFeb 27, 201518 votes

problem is, old veigar was fun to play against. At least for me that is. I always got an evil smile on my face when I saw an enemy pick veig and laugh to myself as I lock in fizz or talon for some free kills. And I consider myself a veigar main, too. Old veig had weaknesses that made up for his instant stun and burst.

I really think riot is going overboard with "counterplay." You don't always have to have "counterplay" if you make trade offs for that power. Veig's trade off was he is a free kill if he misses his stun.

I thought the whole point of being able to master a champ was obtaining the ability to become unstoppable unless you went up against an enemy who was also a master of their specific champ. Not just being mediocre and heavily depending on the rest of your team despite the mastery you acquired.

LyraSonaFeb 27, 20152 votes

Maybe a FULL overhaul of every single champion released so far would result in better balance but that would take them years

lol that's really what should happen. Stop releasing new heroes and just fix the ones you got.

youngjake93Feb 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

My issue with the Veigar nerfs is more of the double standard apparent in Riot's balance philosophy. Why is it ok for other assassin/carries to be absurdly overpowered, cancerous and entirely unfair to play against (I'm looking at you Zed, Leblanc, Nidalee, Kalista and a few others).

Well, with all those champions you have to use positioning, mechanics and decide which order you need to use your skills in situationally. Old Veigar you literally only needed to get within 800 range and press your buttons. I'm not saying Veigar wasn't horribly nerfed, but he wasn't a 'healthy' champion before. All Riot had to do was lower the delay on the E and/or remove the cast time as so many people suggested. We'll see if they fix him next patch, but I think they do have the right idea adding counterplay even if they were dumb and made him underpowered at the same time.

Baron of BreadMar 1, 20152 votes

Veigar also relied upon positioning and skill order. If he was ever caught out by 2 or more people he was dead. He might take out one of them, but he might not. He could throw his box at you, but if he didn't catch you with an edge you just laughed, dodged his W, and then killed him as he tried to waddle away. If he could delete you with just his ult and Q he probably deserved it by doing well in lane where he usually did poorly.

Sure, if you got near a good Viegar when he had his stun up you were likely to be nuked into oblivion without much chance to react, but that's because if you catch him off guard or when he doesn't have his stun you get an easy kill. His counterplay has never been mechanics, it has always been strategy, and quite some strong counterplay it was.

Urdnot EntarFeb 27, 20152 votes

This, so much.

Riot continually alienates players by leading them to believe something about their standards for the game (champions should have counterplay, the game should be technically stable, the meta shouldn't be enforced, ranked play is worthwhile) then turning around and doing something so ridiculously contrary to the seemingly reasonable things they say.

WullfFeb 27, 201523 votes

looked at the link of his statistic.

Seems like he played Veigar ONCE after rework.

Seem good amount of games to judge his viability.

(maybe he is viable maybe he isnt, still one game is not enought to make that judgement)

Arcade AndrewFeb 27, 20157 votes

I played one game before the changes and one game after Veigar is still playable and still broken (IMO) And honestly if riot really wants to balance him they didnt do a goob job at it.

On the game after the rework, I tried something new,

Id Q multiple minions obviously and get double AP farm (which really helped alot I got 100AP on it 10-15 minutes, before took me 20+ minutes for 100 AP on it)

And what I would do, once I landed a stun Id Q a minion and it would travel to the target behind the minion (the enemy champ) And Id get the minion AP + a kill + the champion AP kill

as for the W I didnt notice a change, still felt the same to me honestly It was easier to hit personally and ill explain why next

The new stun, the only bad thing about it, is the reduced range. That was a bad move honestly, but when you look at balance It needed to be done, as for the .75 sec delay it actually is a hidden buff

see for me as veigar before It was always E>delay to see where my cage ended up and where they get stunned>W

now its E>.75sec delay and I can see wheremy cage will pop up allowing me to predict what part of the vage they are actually going to hit> throw down my W before I even stun them and hit the W then follow up with my Q on the minion combo and ult if need be

Sure I may be bronze and bronze tards feed and suck, but that would also mean I suck and shouldve fed with veigar? if hes so bad how come a bronze player thinks his rework feels more natural?

Im tired of all these QQ threads because honestly he still is broken, he still will one hit anything(AD or AP) that he ults and Q's (speaking of Q you can now get double kills with it which is very amusing)

And honestly the update added more clarity to him

Because as fun as it was to press e and A WILD CAGE APPEARS Its nice to actually see the delay and have it outline where the walls will be on the map (instead of the blue circle) so I can predict where they will get stunned Also as for the delay fucking him up when it comes to jungle ganks? it really doesnt, you see the jungle you pop the cage they miss the first wall but get snared on the inside (due to the delay) or they get trapped for a short time on the inside of the walls (risking a snare) which gave me tons of opportunities to kill the enemy jungler/escape

as for the games themselves here is the first one: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1742134714/46709557?tab=overview (ranked game)

the second one http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1742541131/46709557?tab=overview (Which was only team builder so I could assure Id get to play veigar mid to test him out without the worry of him being banned or picked in ranked draft mode)

obviously the ranked game I did better and had more items and farm, but thats because it lasted longer, The shorter non ranked game, I used the same runes and masteries and still did pretty well (if not better statistically) Went for the same build, and still won.

TLDR: stop bitching about veigar because he isnt ruined you guys just are so thickbrained to actually learn how to play him now that he requires like 10% skill instead of E>W>Q>R>dead

EDIT: note that I Didn't even need DFG with these games, removal of DFG did nothing to hurt veigar without DFG veigar is still 100-0 after the "nerfs" he is still 100-0

WullfFeb 27, 201525 votes

I get your point.

Still the fact that you are in bronze means that players you play against might lack the "skill" to dodge that stun. And that is the main problem of every complaint about Veigar.

In your comment you are kind of counting with you hitting enemy with your stun.

Arcade AndrewFeb 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I get your point.

Still the fact that you are in bronze means that players you play against might lack the "skill" to dodge that stun. And that is the main problem of every complaint about Veigar.

In your comment you are kind of counting with you hitting enemy with your stun.

implying the stun wasnt the huge point you had to hit before the rework?

JivvieFeb 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I get your point.

Still the fact that you are in bronze means that players you play against might lack the "skill" to dodge that stun. And that is the main problem of every complaint about Veigar.

In your comment you are kind of counting with you hitting enemy with your stun.

This is one stupid ass comment. The only thing that separates Bronze from Platinum is decision making. Getting "skill" from playing champs is not hard one damn bit. What separates Plat from Diamond+ is consistency and diversity. Yeah, some people are more mechanical than others but... yeah whatever.

WullfFeb 27, 20154 votes

i used "might". Not saying that any bronze is unskilled, but there is bigger chance being so than in higher tiers.

Learn 2 SwimFeb 27, 201531 votes

{quoted}

looked at the link of his statistic.

Seems like he played Veigar ONCE after rework.

Seem good amount of games to judge his viability.

(maybe he is viable maybe he isnt, still one game is not enought to make that judgement)

He is the best Veigar player in the world.

If the NBA raised the height of the baskets another 3 feet would Michael Jordan have to play in 100 games to give you an accurate judgement as to what this would do to the game?

CaptnJakSparrowFeb 28, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Learn 2 Swim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaOEAX1k,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2015-02-27T13:24:52.560+0000)

He is the best Veigar player in the world.

If the NBA raised the height of the baskets another 3 feet would Michael Jordan have to play in 100 games to give you an accurate judgement as to what this would do to the game?

Shaq would be useless and unviable.

Hard PenetratorFeb 27, 20159 votes

It would be true if changes were flexible, but Veigar problem is straightforward. You don't even need to be Veigar player to know what is wrong.

IF you don't have any fun playing new Veigar its obvious that remake didn't went too well. Why would you need more games to suffer if you know he sucks. There are nerfs you don't even need to test to know they will break a champion (Azir or Syndra for example).

WullfFeb 27, 20152 votes

I also think that he has a problem.

But I am also cautious to make definite statements. Might be that he is very well playable but you just have to play him defferent.

ThryaleFeb 27, 20157 votes

I played one game with veig after the rework, and that was more than enough to convince me I did not want to play this champ ever again. Heck, tbh, I didn't even play veigar. It was some random impostor imposing as my beloved veigar.

ShaabanglyyFeb 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

looked at the link of his statistic.

Seems like he played Veigar ONCE after rework.

Seem good amount of games to judge his viability.

(maybe he is viable maybe he isnt, still one game is not enought to make that judgement)

To begin with, a player like him more than likely has multiple smurfs and plays on the PBE. So there is no way to know how many games he has played as of yet.

JivvieFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To begin with, a player like him more than likely has multiple smurfs and plays on the PBE. So there is no way to know how many games he has played as of yet.

Man you people defend these popular kids with force and multiple excuses.

ShaabanglyyFeb 27, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ambiguous Case,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaOEAX1k,comment-id=000500060000,timestamp=2015-02-27T19:23:20.137+0000)

Man you people defend these popular kids with force and multiple excuses.

Im sorry that I respect the opinion of a well known highly rated player over that of, well, you.

RrettFeb 28, 20154 votes

surprised he even bothered with a single game honestly.

SirPacifistaMar 17, 20151 votes

Pssst, if you try a new champion in CHALLENGER you normally try him in normal and customs, not ranked... and trust me when i say that he has far more knowledge about every champion than you or me, mister gold and silver.

Yuumi or LoseFeb 27, 201522 votes

Nyjacky who is another Veigar high elo main said on stream that he's dropping Veigar because he is low tier.

Lean into itFeb 27, 201519 votes

its not ok for veigar to have an aoe stun but the next champ can aoe stun both teams :^)

Commando YiFeb 27, 201515 votes

i honestly feel bad for veigar players as a whole :/

a champion that was never seen in competitive play gets gutted straight into urgot tier

RrettFeb 28, 20152 votes

Worse than urgot haha

chumblerFeb 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Worse than urgot haha

There are actually 6 now with worse win rats (for what little the stat is worth) than Urgot. Three of them got there in just this patch. Excellent work, Riot.

Volt CruelerzFeb 27, 20158 votes

On the upside, as Meddler said in my thread, Riot is aware that they were likely too heavy-handed with the nerfbat and it is likely that at least some relief will come in 5.5, with more targeted love in 5.6.

Also, SadisticVeigar has his own thread on the subject and is the most up-voted Veigar thread that isn't a joke thread. I'm sure they're well aware of what they did. I just can't wait to see the win rates to see how he compares to Azir.

Learn 2 SwimFeb 27, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaOEAX1k,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-27T08:13:55.142+0000)

On the upside, as Meddler said in my thread, Riot is aware that they were likely too heavy-handed with the nerfbat and it is likely that at least some relief will come in 5.5, with more targeted love in 5.6.

Also, SadisticVeigar has his own thread on the subject and is the most up-voted Veigar thread that isn't a joke thread. I'm sure they're well aware of what they did. I just can't wait to see the win rates to see how he compares to Azir.

and he would have stayed the same if it wasnt for massive community backlash

TrídentFeb 28, 20153 votes

Really? Until 5.6? If Riot really realized their mistakes, they should fix it ASAP. Also, from what I saw, his winrate is lower than Azir's now.

RrettFeb 27, 20157 votes

Here are the screen shots if you want.

http://puu.sh/gdaWU/3554725a4f.jpg http://puu.sh/gdaYL/281efead59.jpg

Yuumi or LoseFeb 27, 20152 votes

How do I edit this on the post? I'm still somewhat new to this.

PryotraFeb 27, 20154 votes

click the quote button to get the url. click the edit link under the post you want to insert his url into. Paste url into post, click save.

Yuumi or LoseFeb 27, 20152 votes

Thank you very much.

MarenjiiFeb 27, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Here are the screen shots if you want.

http://puu.sh/gdaWU/3554725a4f.jpg http://puu.sh/gdaYL/281efead59.jpg

Perfectly good champ? I don't give a fuck how high elo the person is. Believing that Veigar's extremely binary kit wit an instant stun of over 1k range was perfectly fine destroys massive amounts of your credibility. You buys need to realize that just because someone is high elo means they know jack shit about game balance. Is Veigar in a good state now? Maybe, maybe not, it has only been a damn day. But was his previous state good for the game? Hell fucking no.

Only Play DariusFeb 27, 201516 votes

item 3111 GG veigar can't touch you.

Champion SkinFeb 27, 20152 votes

No no... you know that every mage needs to build item 3020 of course... every single game... no matter what

MathbalnaseFeb 27, 20152 votes

Doesn't matter. With either one of those, you'll be fast enough to walk out of the cage before it stuns you unless you were dead center when he finished his cast time. In which case he still can't hit you without you having the chance to retaliate unless you're basically exclusively melee.

Curling VeigarFeb 27, 20156 votes

I wouldn't say this is speaking out. I told him to make a thread about Veigar and he said he might.

AudiomancyFeb 27, 20155 votes

Statistics don't lie, people.

DroogzyFeb 27, 20154 votes

Veigar used to be one of the most hated champions I'd play against, I certainly understand the direction Riot is coming from where there is little to no counterplay for opposing players against him, but even I have to say this is too much, he's probably one of the most laughably weak champions in the game right now without a doubt.

MrSlowDieFeb 27, 20153 votes

that's a news. but I doubt riot will take an action.

just like when wild ap sona came to boards and said sona was raped by nerfs, riot kept silent.

Edit : nvm, riot said will do something about veigar.

MathbalnaseFeb 27, 20152 votes

They said that about Cass, too.

OJ191Feb 27, 201511 votes

{quoted}

They said that about Cass, too.

cass is still a piece of shit though, she's just now a piece of shit with overpowered numbers

Yuumi or LoseFeb 27, 20153 votes

For those saying "Oh but it's only one Veigar main despite him being the best Veigar in the world" then what about all the other top tier Veigar mains? Nyjacky is dropping him, SadisticVeigar is also blabbering that his stun took a big hit and might make him change mains. There are other top tier Veigar mains that agree that this change is for the worse. Especially since his q is now a skillshot (Which I don't mind) how do you expect to combo people with the rest of his kit if you can't hit the easy to dodge stun? It's so harder to 100-0 someone. This is the problem here: You need for the enemy to fuck up to win lane. You can't outplay them anymore, they have to outplay theirselves. Veigar needs a jungler to help him win the lane. the q skillshot that hits up to 2 people is a cool idea but that means the enemy can hide behind minions now. It's easy to Q farm now but you would have to clear up the wave to hit the enemy. Then we have the W and E. Both need each other for synergy to maximize the damage and because of the cast time and delay on E, you are barely ever hitting your W's and they can easily dodge stun and outplay you everytime. Then we have the R ap ratio nerf that makes the final blow unsatisfying. Secretly, you're playing a champion without a W so you would have to Q farm much efficiently and constantly to make up for it.

RikariFeb 28, 20151 votes

I don't think that Veigar was "a perfectly good champ" but i do think that this "compensation" was overkill. Making his Q a skillshot that could double hit was enough.

chumblerFeb 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that Veigar was "a perfectly good champ" but i do think that this "compensation" was overkill. Making his Q a skillshot that could double hit was enough.

Making his Q a skill shot was actually a nerf, even with the double hitting.