Stop changing the jungle every season

Big Lincoln·Mar 1, 2017·137 votes·9,091 views

always turns out the same way

Last season ends on a decent note, there's a fairly large roster of jungle champs, and everyone is happy with where it's at New season comes with jungle changes which completely warps the meta and who's good; it'll almost always end up being Lee Sin and the champs that can keep up If it's not Lee Sin and friends then there is a seriously broken item that they can't use as well as the best abusers of it; sometimes it's so strong even laners will pick it up. (Cinderhulk prime, infinite Devourer, sated Devourer, Runeglaive - I heard that Spectral Wraith and Elder Lizard were just as stupid at the height of their strength) Kha'Zix and Hecarim will get completely butchered in subsequent patches, drop to laughably bad winrates, and then in 6 months return to top tier anyway Some champions that used to be staple junglers are now nowhere to be found

After season 4, I've yet to feel elated about jungle reworks. Why do we need to reinvent the wheel every year?

84 Comments

RalanrMar 1, 201715 votes

To prevent the jungle from getting stale.

As weird as that sounds, that's the intention of every jungle rework because by the end of the season the most efficient pathings are common knowledge.

Though I also think Riot treats the jungle like Blizzard treats helmets and shoulder armor. It's the only thing you can really modify (most gear beyond helmets and shoulders basically only differs in patterns and colors. So not much artistic freedom is allowed. Lanes you can't really modify that much beyond numbers like minion waves or tower strength, you can't just change the actual lane. Though it'd be interesting to see how they could change lanes).

Big LincolnMar 1, 201732 votes

The jungle has never felt stale to me in seasons 5 or 6. Even in season 4 which was kind of iffy, Spirit Stone made it SO much more feasible to play AP junglers like Karthus without getting flak for it, and there was overall just a hugely viable roster of champs that's been steadily shrinking each year since.

It feels stale right now when I'm gimping myself by not picking from the roster of LeeSin Graves Khazix and every top tier jungler is equipped with strong and safe clears on top of good ganks.

RalanrMar 1, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ez0jBAOt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T15:48:30.565+0000)

The jungle has never felt stale to me in seasons 5 or 6. Even in season 4 which was kind of iffy, Spirit Stone made it SO much more feasible to play AP junglers like Karthus without getting flak for it, and there was overall just a hugely viable roster of champs that's been steadily shrinking each year since.

To you, sure. But in proplay it would basically become stale as every path was common knowledge. It would be like laneswapping.

It feels stale right now when I'm gimping myself by not picking from the roster of and every top tier jungler is equipped with strong and safe clears on top of good ganks.

Can't argue with that. I never said Riot's changes are successful.

Big LincolnMar 1, 201719 votes

But in proplay it would basically become stale as every path was common knowledge. It would be like laneswapping.

All this does is make jungle paths confusing for the early part of the new season. An optimal one still gets figured out eventually; it only took this long in season 7 because they kept changing Krugs and Raptors.

RalanrMar 1, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ez0jBAOt,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T16:03:00.391+0000)

All this does is make jungle paths confusing for the early part of the new season. An optimal one still gets figured out eventually; it only took this long in season 7 because they kept changing Krugs and Raptors.

And that's bad because? People adapt, that's a good thing.

Big LincolnMar 1, 201724 votes

Because no matter how often they change it, it will still become 'stale' once the best champions find the best clears.

I'd rather see the junglers changed than the jungle itself.

RalanrMar 1, 20175 votes

Junglers are balanced around the jungle. The jungle is not balanced around the junglers.

TheSingularityMar 1, 201716 votes

He still has a point. As long as you're not playing a piss weak jungle, anyone could figure out the optimal jungle path in under a week. And they never ever change drastically. It's merely the question of, "Will I get gang raped by raptors?" Yes? don't do it No? do it.

All this seasons' jungle changes achieved were smashing an absurd amount of junglers out of the meta because they simply can't keep up or can't clear the camps fast enough.

The only successful jungle changes imo would be the changes to the jungle wall hitboxes, addition of gromp/scuttle crab, raptor/wolf smite buffs and my personal favourite, the quill coat <3

Semi-successful changes would be the elemental dragons (infernal/earth drake are still very strong compared to ocean and wind), jungle fruits (vision fruit too strong, not really centered around making plays, if they are there then yipee) and jungle smites. Why jungle smites? They just seem rather eh to me. You don't really buy one to fit ur playstyle, more so to fit ur champ just like the spirit items.

Complete fail changes would be this seasons changes to all of the jungle monsters and sated devourer/feral flare

Mythic pepeMar 2, 20176 votes

"In proplay" makes by blood pressure rise so much

Its basically ruined league, balancing a game of millions players around small number of asians :/

Peng0dMar 2, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mythic pepe,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ez0jBAOt,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2017-03-02T00:36:03.962+0000)

"In proplay" makes by blood pressure rise so much

Its basically ruined league, balancing a game of millions players around small number of asians :/

That's incredibly rude and innacurate.

SirLapseMar 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ez0jBAOt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T15:48:30.565+0000)

The jungle has never felt stale to me in seasons 5 or 6. Even in season 4 which was kind of iffy, Spirit Stone made it SO much more feasible to play AP junglers like Karthus without getting flak for it, and there was overall just a hugely viable roster of champs that's been steadily shrinking each year since.

It feels stale right now when I'm gimping myself by not picking from the roster of and every top tier jungler is equipped with strong and safe clears on top of good ganks.

Pre-season 5 was extremely stale and most of that pre-season was spent correcting it. 4 viable junglers and well...that's it. We had Sated Devourer picks beat tanks, tanks beat gankers, and gankers beat Sated Devourer users. It was like Rock-Paper-Scissors. Was diversity high in that regard? For sure. But overall there were still fewer junglers than we see today. I'm not talking "usable," I'm talking "viable."

The reason that the jungle changes meta so much every time Riot touches it is always relating to:

Jungle gold/exp
Jungle spawn rates
Jungle tankiness

Whenever 1 is strong, gankers are the most powerful because they will collect better impact. We're seeing that right now via Kha'Zix, Rengar and Elise. Lee Sin doesn't really abuse that aspect and is more of a jack of all trades.

Whenever 2 is strong, Master Yi, Shyvana, Xin Zhao, etc. all became meta because they can farm better and faster than most other characters.

Whenever 3 is high, slow clearers drop out of the meta and it effectively snuffs out the meta until buffs are made to either a jungle item or champion. Best example being Sejuani and even Amumu can count.

So we have 2 elements that dictate whether something is strong, and 1 element to dictate if something is weak. Since all 3 have changed literally every season, it will flop the meta. Doesn't make everything viable which I think Riot has yet to understand, but they only added plants this season, effectively making it S6 meta outside of a Hunter's Machete buff iirc. The only details missing being obviously that champions were nerfed and those slight taps eventually kill a champion when the meta shifts.

RizHippoKhanMar 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

To prevent the jungle from getting stale.

As weird as that sounds, that's the intention of every jungle rework because by the end of the season the most efficient pathings are common knowledge.

Though I also think Riot treats the jungle like Blizzard treats helmets and shoulder armor. It's the only thing you can really modify (most gear beyond helmets and shoulders basically only differs in patterns and colors. So not much artistic freedom is allowed. Lanes you can't really modify that much beyond numbers like minion waves or tower strength, you can't just change the actual lane. Though it'd be interesting to see how they could change lanes).

y the downvotes? ur stating what riot thinks,not explicitly saying u support this xD

RalanrMar 1, 20176 votes

Trust me, this isn't the first time I've been downvoting for explaining Riot's side.

ExhibitDMar 2, 20171 votes

Not saying the down votes are warranted, but that could all be avoided if you gave some sort of mention to the fact that you are expressing Riot's point of view.

RizHippoKhanMar 2, 20171 votes

#sadlyf

RebonackMar 1, 201713 votes

"Good idea, we'll start changing the Jungle in mid-season updates, too." -Rito Gaems

5000000000000000Mar 2, 20176 votes

"Now blue side has two blue buffs, and red side has two red buffs. We believe this would separate good junglers from great junglers."

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20177 votes

They keep trying to find a way to make the Jungle, without having only one real path that everyone takes. The idea, whether or not it worked, with the camp changes was to make some camps easier for some champs, and less for some. In reality, this just made the camps difficult for some, and impossible for others, or plain out easy for a few.

I personally think the Smite buffs last season was in the right direction, but eventually the "Most efficient" way showed after all, and where Smite buffs where meant to give decisions, it became rather non-interesting. It became formulated, instead of what fit the situation best.

Dextix LTMar 2, 20171 votes

They keep trying to find a way to make the Jungle, without having only one real path that everyone takes.

Why is Riot then always trying to do the impposible?

It is impposible to change that. There will always be a path that is the best path.

Unless you are willing to change the game and turn it on its head for no reason every season, that will always happen.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20171 votes

Then I guess we're getting another Jungle rework next season.

AmazoXMar 2, 20171 votes

Yeah after Ryze 4th rework though. Kappa.

Troy242621Mar 1, 20175 votes

Last season the jungle was actually relatively well balanced, really is a shame.

h5LYF41LamMar 1, 20173 votes

tbh the jungle last season was busted,the jungle role should be a role about helping other lanes not solo carrying the entire game because you got a kill.

Not xPekeMar 1, 201713 votes

because that's not how it is now?

the top tier jglers can take the game by storm right now and never look back.

most of the time the team that has the snowballing jgler will win regardless of how laning is going.

Martian SpartanMar 2, 20171 votes

This is way to true.

KotexMar 1, 20173 votes

Ahhh the good old days of building Elder lizard as a laner...

tacofacefartMar 1, 20173 votes

I wish they had the same creativity with towers as they did with the jungle.

Mythic pepeMar 2, 20173 votes

Yeah they ruined the jungle from a what i need now perspective? 1.help push tower=krugs 2.check dragon for wards/dragon=raptors 3.be on look out for counter jung=wolf

now its a 3-6 champs personal stomping ground

Play off meta=get your shitpasted

Btw off meta in this case means not one of the afromientioned champs

EnloctMar 2, 20173 votes

A list of broken jungle items abused by laners that doesn't include Wriggle's Lantern? I feel old. For reference, it was a lifesteal/armor/AD item that came with a free ward with 100% uptime back before there was any other kind of free ward. It also had a passive that did damage to jungle camps.

But I'm definitely ready for some changes for S8 jungle because I've been a jungle main since the actual release of the game and this is the first season I've just given up and gone mid.

Shaco PsychoMar 2, 20171 votes

Ahh, season 4. I have fond memories of those days :P

MonkeyMadnessMar 2, 20171 votes

Riot Games is a shit company. They don't care about you or me or anyone that isn't a professional player, and even they get pretty abused. This game was quite literally the pinnacle of competitive gaming for so long, and now it caters to the casuals so hard that if you try to keep your competitive mindset you generally find yourself getting banned (happened to me and a couple of my friends, the rest of them quit the game before it could happen to them). If Riot's game design bothers you, do yourself a favor and leave now. If you feel the need to make posts like this, you have already become disillusioned with the game. I can tell you from experience, it will not get better.

Peng0dMar 2, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Riot Games is a shit company. They don't care about you or me or anyone that isn't a professional player, and even they get pretty abused. This game was quite literally the pinnacle of competitive gaming for so long, and now it caters to the casuals so hard that if you try to keep your competitive mindset you generally find yourself getting banned (happened to me and a couple of my friends, the rest of them quit the game before it could happen to them). If Riot's game design bothers you, do yourself a favor and leave now. If you feel the need to make posts like this, you have already become disillusioned with the game. I can tell you from experience, it will not get better.

Erm, I fail to see how being competitive gets you banned, you clearly did something wrong.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20174 votes

Self reflection is hard for some people

MonkeyMadnessMar 2, 20172 votes

And so is descending from that self-appointed moral high ground.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20172 votes

The thing about High Horse's is that it's too high. I can't come down now, but I've accepted my life on the high horse.

MonkeyMadnessMar 3, 20172 votes

Moral high ground and High Horse are rather different terms, and the fact that you would say something like this proves that you are both a pretentious ass and rather uneducated on issues regarding morality.

MonkeyMadnessMar 2, 20172 votes

I got called out for "trolling" in a normal game (pantheon support after I asked my team if they were ok with it and they said yes), and when I tried to defend myself, I got reported and suspended for "toxicity". Nothing I said was even on the order of magnitude of the insults being hurled at me, yet I got banned and the did not.

ModAcademy KaynMar 2, 20171 votes

Why would they agree and then still flame you? That seems fishy...

Nothing I said was even on the order of magnitude of the insults being hurled at me, yet I got banned and the did not.

You are responsible for your own actions. Doesn't matter if "they started it", you shouldn't have added in to it. You don't simply get banned for one bad game, which I'm likely guessing you've been "defending" yourself in plenty other games too.

MonkeyMadnessMar 3, 20172 votes

They flamed me because I was the easy target. I was playing the off-meta pick and it was my lane that ultimately ended up getting both outplayed (very good enemy adc) and horrendously outganked (our jungler outright ignored the ganking aspect of the game entirely). Pretty standard season 7 game actually: camp bot lane for easy win. My team just needed someone to blame and I was the easiest target. And when I say "defended myself" what I actually did was try to get the enemy team on my side so that I wouldn't get 9 reports lodged against me. I didn't really "fight back" so much as I simply plead my case with a third party.

You don't simply get banned for one bad game

couple issues here:

OMFG yes you do...ik it's hard for you self-proclaimed moral authorities to realize, as you've never had issues with the banbot before, but if your account is flagged, it really doesn't take much to get a ban. My account is flagged because I was a dick in season 2. I have long since reformed, but singular bad day usually gets me some form of suspension because Riot thinks this is a just way to treat people that put in real effort to change their behavior.
I was temp banned, not permabanned. Obviously single infractions don't get you permabanned, but this was not a permaban, so that's not a relevant argument here.
the new system of banning accumulates "strikes" against your account indefinitely. Meaning that I could have one bad game a month ago, then one bad game today, and BOOM. Banned. Which is actually what happened here...
I'm not going to pretend that I don't have games where I am definitely out of line. Everyone does, even you moral highground people (I dare you to prove my point by refuting this claim). But Riot's bot clearly lacks the ability to determine between a bad day and a toxic player, and also believes that toxicity is just about anything other than "ggwp". The reason for this is that it is quite literally programmed to ignore the context of any reported chat. And before you try to counter this argument, please read up on the current situation regarding PewDiePie and how lack of context quite literally fucked him out of millions of dollars in the most unjust manner possible.

You are responsible for your own actions. Doesn't matter if "they started it", you shouldn't have added in to it.

So you are therefore also of the opinion that if someone is being bullied they should just take it up the ass and not try to defend themselves? This creates a society of victims in the worst possible way. I have a right to defend myself from people who attack me unjustly, and as long as I do so without actually intentionally ruining the game (ie trolling my team to prove my point or otherwise holding my team hostage) I am not in the wrong. I may not be the nicest person, but not being nice and being toxic are rather far apart on the behavioral spectrum. Also, let's focus on this part of your statement:

Doesn't matter if "they started it"

Hmm, well legal precedent would strongly disagree with you on this point. If someone comes at you with a knife, and you injure them defending yourself, THEY are guilty of attempted assault with a deadly weapon, and you are innocent of any wrong doing provided you stop attacking when the threat is "neutralized". They "started it" and they are still guilty. QED.

ModAcademy KaynMar 3, 20171 votes

This isn't real life. This is a game. In your Knife situation, you don't have the choice to do nothing. In a game, you have the choice to escalate the conflict, or to simply mute the dude and move on. You are responsible for your own words and actions, just at the person who started it is.

MonkeyMadnessMar 4, 20172 votes

So you are placing responsibility on me to either leave the game (bannable) or mute the offending party (even thought Riot itself very clearly states that the mute function is NOT an excuse to harass other players, and therefore I can NOT be held culpable for refusing to use it). Fact is, it is NOT my responsibility to escape these situations, it is entirely on Riot to prevent them in the first place, and they are failing miserably.

Also, going back to the mute argument, you are quite literally blaming me for not taking extra precautions to protect myself instead of the people I should have protected myself from. See how that's the very definition of victim blaming?

ModAcademy KaynMar 4, 20171 votes

Never said that. The other person is still being punished, but you don't need to escalate the situation by responding. You don't give him the time of day. And yes, the mute button is not an excuse for harassment. That said, you can still use the mute button regardless, and report the dude. There is literally no benefit to responding to someone negative.

Nope, I'm not blaming you for not protecting yourself. I'm blaming you of escalating the situation, when you can simply ignore it. Why respond to toxicity, it doesn't do anything.

MonkeyMadnessMar 7, 20172 votes

you have the choice to escalate the conflict, or to simply mute the dude and move on.

Liar. Bold faced fucking liar. You quite literally blamed me for falling victim to the actions of my offender. And the fact that no "a player you reported has been banned" notification came up, they categorically did NOT get punished (at least not due to me reporting them). You people who have never been banned need to wake the fuck up and accept the fact that Riot very much manipulates their statistics regarding who gets banned and what they get banned for. It's pretty fucking bad. A while back, I got a 14 day ban for saying literally only "gg afk". Never actually went afk, nor did I say anything else for the duration of the game. Not only did I get a 14 day ban, I got a 50 game chat ban, and a 20 game ranked restrict upon my return from the temp ban. Only 10 lines of chat were in my chat log, pregame banter and "leash blue", etc, the "gg afk", and then something about nunu being OP at counter jungling (so this was definitely a while ago). THIS is the kind of shit Riot punishes people with flagged accounts for. I have been actively improving my behavior since season 2 (and I definitely deserved those bans). But it has done nothing. I get punishments for single offenses, regardless of the nature of the offense and how long it's been since I've been "toxic". This is NOT player reform, it is strictly punitive, and in the absolute worst way. This is the singular reason why actual toxic players make smurfs with the intent to ruin the game for others. It's the only way they can enjoy this shitty system riot has created.

ModAcademy KaynMar 7, 20171 votes

Yeah, I'm starting to think I'm not the bold faced liar here... BUT rationalize however ya want. If you were truly banned by accident, it'd be fixed if you spent time opening up a card, but those consistent punishments show a real story.

Don't bother to respond, because I'm sure as hell not going to after that little spheel.

MonkeyMadnessMar 7, 20171 votes

Not by accident, but due to discrimination that is very apparent to anyone who has ever had their account flagged. The fact of the matter is that there are two very distinct camps here: people who have been banned and people who haven't, and you people who haven't actually have no fkin clue. The things Riot claims they do are straight lies. There is NOT email verification of bans, Riot Support NEVER responds to support tickets regarding bans (at least not anymore, they used to with canned/botted responses about a week after it was submitted). Look at the people like me complaining and see the shit we complain about. It's actually happening like that.

Shaco PsychoMar 2, 20171 votes

You literally contradicted yourself.

They don't care about you or me or anyone that isn't a professional player

Okay, so Riot only cares about the pro's

it caters to the casuals so hard that if you try to keep your competitive mindset you generally find yourself getting banned

Oh, now they only care about the casuals.

See the problem here? The pros are pros because they're competitive. Your logic is flawed sir. Good day!

P.S. I do wish Riot would focus more efforts into balancing the game for the Elo's which make up most of the games player base rather than those they stream on Twitch.

MonkeyMadnessMar 3, 20171 votes

You are right, this was phrased rather badly. Let me rephrase:

Riot only considers pro (and higher level play) when making gameplay decisions (ie balance changes etc), but favors the casuals when making community decisions (ie Dynamic Queue, banning people at the drop of a hat because some kid's safe space got violated etc).

Shaco PsychoMar 3, 20171 votes

Ah.

banning people at the drop of a hat because some kid's safe space got violated

Honestly, I don't know if I agree with this. I've been toxic a fair amount of times, and I have friends who are toxic quite frequently, and none of us have ever been banned. Not even temp banned.

It would take a lot of consistent and fairly substantial toxicity to get a perma ban. At that point, you're spending more time flaming than enjoying the game. And if that's the case, what's the point of playing League of Legends? :P

I guess what I'm trying to say is, League is a game where the objective is to kill the nexus. It's not an insult simulator :P.

MonkeyMadnessMar 3, 20171 votes

No, let me explain to you what it takes: a flagged account. I used to be a dick in this game, I'll admit it. In season 2, I was dealing with a lot of emotional issues and I took them out on other players, and I was justly temp banned for it. I have since reformed, but Riot still considers my account "flagged" and the threshold for a ban is dramatically less for me than for you people who have never had run ins with the ban bot. It is impossible to remove this flagged status, as has been clearly stated by Riot officials for some time, and now with the escalating punishments, it's basically impossible for me to avoid permaban (btw I'm not permabanned, just temp banned). My most recent reform card included games that were separated by literally months, meaning that Riot does not care if reform efforts are being made, and most definitely judge players like me for simply having a bad day, regardless of my behavior in the rest of my games. They keep adding strikes to your account that literally can not be removed until you get the permaban. If this seems fair to you, then you have serious problems with morality. This system coupled with the fact that literally everyone reports at the drop of the hat (due to the Riot-enforced mentality of "if you throw enough dirt, some of it is bound to stick") coupled with the fact that Riot finds almost everything other than "ggwp" to be some for of "toxic", it's pretty difficult for a competitive person like me to avoid punishment. Eventually, I'll lose my cool at the hands of some dickhead troll, and when that troll reports me, his report with be considered just as valid (if not more so) than my own, and I'll get banned for my actions regardless of their context, because that's how Riot wants their game to work.

Jaygo41Mar 2, 20171 votes

Jarvan is honestly slated for a rework, his pattern is relatively stale compared to the rest of the squad. I think he needs something to "do" once he gets in, like an auto reset or sweep attack or something. They're gonna look at him in December, then he'll go back to being a top tier jungler.