PSA: Black cleaver is an AD caster item

Paroe·Mar 14, 2017·6 votes·1,219 views

ARE ALL its intended users.

17 Comments

5000000000000000Mar 14, 20176 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-74-notes "While The Black Cleaver is meant for fighters like Darius and skirmishers like Fiora, it packs so much offensive power that glass cannon champs are buying into it as well."

Back when the item was first introduced, yes, black cleaver was an AD caster item. That's no longer the case today. It's not meant for backline AD carries.

Arcus DiabolusMar 14, 20173 votes

As a Riven player, I'm actually terrified that BC is getting looked at as much as it is. If BC gets nerfed too much more, my entire build will probably have to change and I won't have a good go-to first item anymore.

I mean, it isn't the worst thing that could happen, as I'm sure I could get the CDR, armor pen and AD from other sources for sure, but damn it would suck.

Variks the LoyalMar 14, 20172 votes

MonkeyKing Gnar LeeSin RekSai Pantheon Olaf Camille JarvanIV Kled

You forgot a few.

You also added a bunch that really should not be building Cleaver. They're all Marksman. BC is never healthy in the hands of a Marksman.

Chibi BronzlifeMar 14, 20173 votes

wrong, caster marksman should be using it, they don't want the typical adc build. Jhin, and Varus will want this item, maybe not in the early game but as it advances into mid/late game yes. If you're not going full crit build on MF you should consider this item as well, it's not a necessary item on MF, but it's useful.

Variks the LoyalMar 14, 20172 votes

They shouldn't be building it. I'm not saying they don't want to, I'm saying them building it is inherently unhealthy.

Jhin, for example, has oodles of passives and innate synergy in his kit that makes you want to build crit and attack speed. An intended Jhin build would not have room for BC, because he is all about crit and attack speed. The fact that you consider BC a worthy item on it is indicative that there is a problem.

The nature of Black Cleaver means it can never be balanced on an entirely ranged champion. If Marksmen want to build it, they need to make a significant trade off for doing so; building BC on a Marksman should evoke the same imagery as building Warmogs. You're sacrificing the damage for the durability.

Currently, Marksmen don't sacrifice anything for building BC, and they should. A Fighter, meanwhile, does not sacrifice anything for building BC, and they shouldn't. It's the nature of the classes that make the item healthy on some champions and unhealthy on others.

Chibi BronzlifeMar 14, 20172 votes

actually marksman do sacrifice something when they build BC, crit and AS. Jhins currently aren't going the crit dmg build because it's not as good, Varus hasn't really ever wanted crit. Lucian is a bit of a weird scenario where either crit or brute dmg could possibly work evenly but he is (or at least wasn't before 7.5) in a good place overall so no one was even playing him to test out how he worked in the new ADC world, MF now wants to focus a bit more on crit and maybe shouldn't buy BC anymore but can maybe still get away with it in a full damage build since she doesn't synergize as well with things like AS or LS as she does raw dmg and crit. Ezreal and Corki the other two famous caster ADCs should never build BC, but at the same time don't want the standard ADC build either. It's about understanding more than just what was intended, and honestly I don't expect the Jhin crit build to ever come back to the top of his builds so yeah.

Variks the LoyalMar 14, 20172 votes

The fact that BC is a significant item on Marksmen who were built for crit and AS, in and of itself means that they aren't sacrificing anything significant.

ParoeMar 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The fact that BC is a significant item on Marksmen who were built for crit and AS, in and of itself means that they aren't sacrificing anything significant.

Marksman have SYNERGY with crit and attack speed more so than melee champions, but AD casters STILL are AD casters. Your argument is like saying "DoT mages shouldnt be buying rabadons deathcap because it makes them unhealthy". AD casters are and always have been MEANT to use A-pen and CDR. If CDR wasnt such an easy stat to obtain on ADCs it would be much more of a tradeoff AD casters actually make.

Part of the reason why i always found "lethality jhin BUSTED BROKEN OP OP OP OP OP" threads stupid is because jhin is both an AD caster AND an assassin. Literally he is supposed to build those items if he wants that backline poke and kill secure playstyle.

Variks the LoyalMar 15, 20171 votes

Actually, Jhin is supposed to function as those roles, to a certain extent, while being primarily a crit based Marksmen.

Twitch functions as an Assassin, to a certain extent, but he is still primarily a Marksman, and will never be an Assassin like Zed or Rengar are.

Black Cleaver, meanwhile, is not made for a backline poke playstyle. It's Health and stacking percentage based ArP specifically are meant to function counter to that playstyle.

ParoeMar 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Jhin is supposed to function as those roles, to a certain extent, while being primarily a crit based Marksmen.

Twitch functions as an Assassin, to a certain extent, but he is still primarily a Marksman, and will never be an Assassin like Zed or Rengar are.

Black Cleaver, meanwhile, is not made for a backline poke playstyle. It's Health and stacking percentage based ArP specifically are meant to function counter to that playstyle.

What? No its not. Black cleaver was originally intended to help AD casters keep up with AP casters in the arms race. After riot severely nerfed AP itemization its existence became a moot point entirely until the lethality rework. After A-pen was reworked into lethality, black cleaver AND ALL champions who could do rapid damage (also known as BURST), were suddenly MUCH better because the amount of available AD went up on AD caster itemization AS DID the flat armor penetration. Marksman are simply ranged champions who scale off of AD and attack speed. Theres some marksman who have a lot of power put into their abilities and some who dont. Ashe Jinx MissFortune TwistedFate Vayne are all champions who dont succeed well with lethality. MF is a marginal exception because only her ult really shines with lethality due to its synergy with black cleaver and the huge requirement of team competence.

you seem to have this very strange idea that "CASTER =/= ASSASSIN" when caster refers to the archetype, not the class. An assassin is by definition a caster because they use ABILITIES to DEAL MOST OF THEIR DAMAGE. Listen guy, theres two kinds of damage champions. CASTERS; champions whose damage comes mostly from abilities Auto attackers; Champions whose damage comes mostly from basic attacks.

They are THE two archetypes in the same for damage dealers (theres three kinds of tank archetypes for example; Shields, mitigation, and healing).

Variks the LoyalMar 15, 20171 votes

... Yes, I know that. I know what an AD Caster is.

Example AD Casters include Renekton Riven JarvanIV Pantheon Zed

The key is that the majority of their damage comes from abilities, not from AAs.

With Jhin, the majority of his damage should come from his AAs, not his abilities. This is the case for any 'caster' Marksmen. They still get a significant amount of damage from AAs, but they don't get as much from abilities.

And Black Cleaver was not made for Marksmen. Riot outright said it's made for beefy frontline Fighters like Darius, and CDR reliant, AD Skirmishers, like Fiora. They retooled it recently _specifically _ to try and get it _out _ of the hands of Marksmen.

ParoeMar 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

... Yes, I know that. I know what an AD Caster is.

Example AD Casters include

The key is that the majority of their damage comes from abilities, not from AAs.

With Jhin, the majority of his damage should come from his AAs, not his abilities. This is the case for any 'caster' Marksmen. They still get a significant amount of damage from AAs, but they don't get as much from abilities.

And Black Cleaver was not made for Marksmen. Riot outright said it's made for beefy frontline Fighters like Darius, and CDR reliant, AD Skirmishers, like Fiora. They retooled it recently _specifically _ to try and get it _out _ of the hands of Marksmen.

Yes but AD CASTERS ARE STILL ITS INTENDED USERS. Champions like Varus Lucian Jhin are ALL AD casters. Marksman IN GENERAL have HIGH SYNERGY WITH ATTACK SPEED AND CRIT.

You cant just say "these champions are ranged so were removing an important part of their itemization". Thats asinine. Regardless of their status as marksman, it means nothing more than they have PLAYSTYLE DIVERSITY. It wasnt until the lethality rework that HYBRID A-PENxCRIT was even viable.

Variks the LoyalMar 15, 20171 votes

Keep on trying to tell me that Renekton and Jhin are the same type of champion.

Chibi BronzlifeMar 14, 20171 votes

ummm there are a few more that can use it as an intended item. MF can get away with it still as a late item, Wu should probably be using it I'm sure there are a few others but yeah

ParoeMar 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chibi Bronzlife,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=evpiqbpf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-14T05:21:27.875+0000)

ummm there are a few more that can use it as an intended item. MF can get away with it still as a late item, Wu should probably be using it I'm sure there are a few others but yeah

Wu is considered an AD caster; AD casters are AD champions whose majority of damage comes from abilities. MF is borderline though.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 15, 20171 votes

Why is Jhin Lucian in there? They're not intended users. They're "abuser" of BC.

ParoeMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why is in there? They're not intended users. They're "abuser" of BC.

Intended. Users. A majority of their damage still comes from abilities.

{quoted}

Keep on trying to tell me that and are the same type of champion.

Jhin is less so because hes tooled to be viable with either cookie cutter ADC or cookie cutter AD assassin. By design, jhin is strongly both with little to no power loss between the two. Listen, if you can say "a sheen would work well on this champion" theyre a caster. Have you ever TRIED trinity jhin? Or lucian? As a rush item, its pretty damn powerful. Jhin less so because of his innate synergy with standard ADC items though. DFT is another caster thing; if you can say "DFT would work well on this champion" it is most likely a caster.

Also, i didnt know renekton never hit anything with his basic attacks. Or that his basic attacks somehow didnt do damage. I mean, its not like 250AD hurts or something.