Can Rift Herald be more substantial?

Eedat · 2016-09-30T20:35:49.648Z

Jungle main here. As a jungler, I feel Rift Herald is very low in priority because dragon is so much better. Especially stacking as many dragons as possible for stacking buffs and a strong elder dragon buff. Rift Herald is shit in comparison. So why is this a problem? Quite honestly I will almost never gank or show on the top side of the map if dragon is up. I will even pass up some of my buffs if it's on the top side. Pretty much all my ganks are focused on mid and bot which is why it feels like whoever wins bot wins the game. It's not that the ADC will always carry the game, it's that that's where pretty much all the teams' effort is concentrated. Junglers gank it. Mid laners roam there. Top laners TP in here. I've been playing support a lot on another account with one of my irl friends who is an ADC main and every single game there are multiple 4-man gang bangs bot lane followed by the team taking dragon. Every. Single. Game. And as a jungle main I can confirm that bot lane is a priority gank and completely understand why it happens and that I do it myself. So can you make Rift Herald a relevant thing instead of a mediocre buff on a single person on your team? Would be great to not feel guilty showing top to gank and I'm sure bot lane mains would really appreciate not getting 4 man dove 10-15 minutes into the game every single game.

ProfDrDeathSep 30, 20161 votes

Would it possibly make sense for Rift Herald to have another, more lategame-oriented reward?

For example, would it make sense for Herald to count like an Elemental Dragon for the purpose of determining the strength of the Elder Dragon buff?

CremepieSep 30, 20162 votes

Have you considered changing the buff overall as well? I Never really notice the power of it, unless im dead even with my opponent and its still early game.

EedatSep 30, 201622 votes

I honestly think maybe some sort of flat global gold would help. Like the old dragon did. Thats gives the team focused on scaling and utility a choice with dragon and teams that want an immediate small advantage an option as well

SkiasSep 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Agreed on Rift Herald not hitting the mark. We'll be making some tweaks to it in pre-season, starting with its damage output rather than its reward. Feeling is that it's just too risky to do in many circumstances where it should be a good choice (odds of giving an enemy champ a double kill are too high).

Problem is, losing DRG for it is never worth it. Its reward never feels like it is helpful. Also taking it by time laning phase is ending also makes it awkward. It would be nice if it was something cooler than a stat stick with a shiv attached to it. Map control, vision or something.

RiotMeddlerOct 1, 201618 votes

We don't want Rift Herald to be of comparable value to dragon. Teams being able to trade objectives and come up both in equal spots often results in low interaction games (why contest one objective when you can just take another and neutralize the play?).

A cooler reward's a possibility certainly, though not something for pre-season at least (Rift Herald isn't one of our main focuses). We'll put some more subtantial time into it at some point next year I expect.

LankPantsOct 1, 20161 votes

We don't want Rift Herald to be of comparable value to dragon. Teams being able to trade objectives and come up both in equal spots often results in low interaction games (why contest one objective when you can just take another and neutralize the play?).

It doesn't need to be as good as Drake, it just needs to be worth contesting. Currently if you see enemies taking Rift Herald the best play is just to let them kill themselves on it and kill them after. The buff isn't worth risking a fight for.

SaltyKrackaOct 1, 201611 votes

It should be more valuable than any given dragon. Dragons respawn, and aren't time-limited either.

Hell, it should be more valuable than any two dragons, given the opportunity cost and sheer unavailability of it.

DengedenOct 1, 20162 votes

Top laners scale faster and TP is still the most impactful late game summoner. Gotta take that into account too when you give them buffs.

SaltyKrackaOct 1, 20166 votes

There are two basic ways of making Herald more valuable. There's giving it more solo power, where it directly pumps more power into the player who grabs the buff and influences his lane from there. Then there's giving it team power, most likely in the form of XP or gold for the team.

I would prefer it if killing the Herald also gave a large flat burst of XP to every member on the killing team, as it would not only be valuable in a way nothing else on the map is, it would also be of disproportionate value to the jungler and the support, the two roles most often low on XP.

DengedenOct 1, 20161 votes

Then there's giving it team power, most likely in the form of XP or gold for the team.

Which risks making it an equivalent to dragon that people will end up trading like Meddler said.

it would also be of disproportionate value to the jungler and the support, the two roles most often low on XP.

This myth needs to stop. junglers and supports have less EXP than the rest of the team, yes. (Unless the jungler goes off but, details.) Which is why people pick champions in those roles that aren't reliant on EXP as others might be.

Any lead is always better on champions that are even or ahead compared to their lane opponents. Including EXP

SkiasOct 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We don't want Rift Herald to be of comparable value to dragon. Teams being able to trade objectives and come up both in equal spots often results in low interaction games (why contest one objective when you can just take another and neutralize the play?).

A cooler reward's a possibility certainly, though not something for pre-season at least (Rift Herald isn't one of our main focuses). We'll put some more subtantial time into it at some point next year I expect.

Thanks for the response, meddler. I can completely understand not competing with dragon to avoid people "trading" objectives. Instead of defending DRG, let them have it and get herald. But perhaps I was unclear. I was thinking of a power with its own unique purpose and use besides "be stronger in lane". Like if it had roving ghosts or something that spread through the map and slowly searched for a short period of time. So perhaps as an invading jungler or duelist, that would have significant value to you. But definitely something with a limited duration, likely shorter than the value of baron or dragon.

Perhaps it's that herald as a buff is incentive to stay on top island which is, to be honest, somewhat dull at times. If you are locked against Nasus or Tryndamere, the lane never ends. It would be awesome if herald interacted with the map/lanes and gave top some effects besides TP bot for a 4 man dive.

Thanks for considering it though!

Shadow HazardOct 1, 20161 votes

Part of making it a cooler reward is making it desirable for not only to get help from the other team members but not have that mini pissing contest that happens in soloq for every team member piling on top trying to steal from each other. An idea I would say to go with those 2 points for the herald buff would be Glimps of the Void:Reduce incoming damage and increase damage dealt by 5%. For each nearby ally lose 0.5% and they gain 1% of the buff.

Also a big first point of a way to deal with the extreme amount of damage the herald does is to remove the %health damage it does.

CritkeeperOct 1, 20161 votes

How about instead of bonus damage and resistances, make it halve the summoner spell cooldowns of the champion who picks it up. That way the top laner can teleport all over the place.

If its just the difficulty / risk in taking it you are looking to change, then I suggest it create a healing zone for the team that killed it for 3 to 5 seconds, that way you can recoup some health from taking it and not immediately have to back to lose even MORE cs / gold / experience.

One reason people don't take the rift herald is because you could have just taken a tower, gotten more gold and map influence along the way. You have to value the rift herald against time better spent pushing down a lane for gold, experience and map influence. One way to balance that equation is to make the rift herald provide some map influence, for instance a shield shrine for the team that killed it until baron spawns.

Sire HippingtonSep 30, 20169 votes

Honestly, it's less the damage(risk), but more how long it takes(effort). If you do herald with jungler+top, iyou easily loose 1-2 waves of minions, you just both fall behind in cs and xp and you then need the buff to make up for that instead of actually getting much of an advantage.

If you just lower the damage, then add some more local gold/xp to make up for all the cs you are missing because of how much effort it is to kill it even as two. But as it is now, i only ever go for it if **nothing **else is to take on the map and we have two people close to it.

RiotMeddlerOct 1, 201618 votes

I could see a reduction in its health happening as well, agree the opportunity cost is pretty high at present. We'll probably start with the damage reduction and then reassess though.

dunder killOct 1, 20162 votes

I don't think thats the issue though. The issue is that rift herald buff isn't very good as it is.

La BarbotteOct 1, 20162 votes

yeah, make the buff a three hit thing that does %max base and last game dmg scaling on how much AP you lost fighting red buff before 20 minutes without boots

DeathBurstOct 3, 20161 votes

I disagree. The buff is a pretty huge boost in 1v1 potential and tower taking. It just doesn't work in team, so it's not good in all circumstances, but the problem with Herald is not the buff.

WinTheWarOnPantsOct 1, 20161 votes

what about making it much weaker, but spawn multiple times before baron. one thing i really don't like about it is that the buff is 20 min and persists through death. why not make more like a small baron buff?

SwiftKitten88Oct 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I could see a reduction in its health happening as well, agree the opportunity cost is pretty high at present. We'll probably start with the damage reduction and then reassess though.

i agree.. i mean, i can solo dragon the instant i finish my jungle item. on any of my jungler.. where as rift hearld? im not going to go near that thing alone..

hell even in a bot game.. with 12k gold before the 15 min mark.. i couldn't solo the damn thing.

RivuoOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eukcnvIp,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2016-09-30T23:08:34.953+0000)

Honestly, it's less the damage(risk), but more how long it takes(effort). If you do herald with jungler+top, iyou easily loose 1-2 waves of minions, you just both fall behind in cs and xp and you then need the buff to make up for that instead of actually getting much of an advantage.

If you just lower the damage, then add some more local gold/xp to make up for all the cs you are missing because of how much effort it is to kill it even as two. But as it is now, i only ever go for it if **nothing **else is to take on the map and we have two people close to it.

i mean... isnt 1-2 waves worth a 20 minute op solo buff..?

Sire HippingtonOct 1, 20161 votes

Considering that your jungler also wastes alot time without getting anything and the danger of giving kills+that buff for prettymuch free to the opposing team. Also, that buff isn't that OP, it rarly changes how the lane goes, if it's even, you hardly get an good opportunity for herald, if you are loosing, it rarly alows you to come back in lane, and if you are ahead, your opponent would avoid 1v1 situations anyway. And vs somewhat decent teams, splitpushing hardly gets you further than the outer turret. The main reason for why the buff isn't that strong is That it only works if you are alone, and you can't get much done in this game alone.

RivuoOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eukcnvIp,comment-id=0000000400010000,timestamp=2016-10-01T01:16:14.720+0000)

Considering that your jungler also wastes alot time without getting anything and the danger of giving kills+that buff for prettymuch free to the opposing team. Also, that buff isn't that OP, it rarly changes how the lane goes, if it's even, you hardly get an good opportunity for herald, if you are loosing, it rarly alows you to come back in lane, and if you are ahead, your opponent would avoid 1v1 situations anyway. And vs somewhat decent teams, splitpushing hardly gets you further than the outer turret. The main reason for why the buff isn't that strong is That it only works if you are alone, and you can't get much done in this game alone.

Well you didnt say all that.

warpenguin555Oct 1, 20165 votes

are there any plans for bot lane? It feels like if you lose that lane you lose the game 90% of the time. Also games are feeling really snowbally again. not as bad as the start of the pre-season, not even close to that, but still pretty snowbally

AMYS GRAVEOct 1, 20161 votes

Good assessment, a combination of its tankiness and damage are significant investments for the situationally useful buff.

Blue Moon WolfOct 1, 20161 votes

I'd like to see Rift Herald as something that when you are counterpicked and forced to play safe, can give you enough extra power to level the playing field (would have said "helps when you are behind", but if I recall, that is exactly what it is for :p).

I don't know how much of a difference there would be between "helping champs who have been counter picked" and "helping champs who are falling behind in lane" in terms of bonuses, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'd like to see it as a nice bonus to give you an edge for even match ups and a useful way to level the field for when you are countered.

Jesus is SaviorOct 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Agreed on Rift Herald not hitting the mark. We'll be making some tweaks to it in pre-season, starting with its damage output rather than its reward. Feeling is that it's just too risky to do in many circumstances where it should be a good choice (odds of giving an enemy champ a double kill are too high).

Can you change the way the buff is transferred? As an assassin jungle main, most of the reason I don't waste time on Rift Herald is because:

If I donate it to my top laner, it puts me behind.
If I want it for myself, it doesn't really matter. My top laner with his bigger hitbox is gonna steal it even if I'm standing right on top of it.

2 possible ideas:

Buffs "belong to the jungler" so if the jungler is in the general vicinity of the pit, then give it to the jungler (determined by the smite summoner spell). If the jungler is not in range (or multiple people in the pit have smite), then revert to the old "stand on top of it" system. Give the holder of the buff (even via the "stand on top of it system") an icon that they can click within 10-20 seconds, and then click on an ally to transfer it to them. ie: the jungler literally gets the buff, but can literally donate it to the top laner (or someone else) via a button.
Same as above, but instead of giving it to the jungler, let the jungler set a server flag using a command. eg: /herald <champion name>. If jungler is in the pit and <champion name> is also in the pit, herald goes to them. If <champion name> is the jungler, herald goes to them. Otherwise, the "stand on it" mechanic is used. Could also integrate it into the jungler's tab screen using the HUD and a checkbox (similar to the mute checkbox) instead of a server command.

Option 1 is the best option tbh. The mechanic already somewhat exists via Zilean's passive.

Akali is SO HOTOct 1, 20161 votes

I think it should be more team focused. The way it works right now is that it's almost never picked up, but when it is picked up it's really only because the jungler and top laner got a good pick on the top laner/jungler. Then the buff just makes the game snowball out of control for top lane. Dying to a gank already puts you behind but then having to lane against someone who has a buff for 20 minutes straight is almost impossible especially from behind. Not fun at all.

I think it would be a lot healthier for the game if the buff was removed in exchange for something else. I think a few ideas that might work or be worth looking into would be something like this:

Giving global gold like old dragon did
Giving a short global buff to everyone on the team (maybe a blue or red buff or something) instead of a 20 minute buff for 1 person
Making the next wave for every lane a baron buffed wave
Giving global experience
Fortification on all turrets for a few minutes
Permanent gold/s increase for everyone
Giving everyone one ward that lasts 10 minutes and cannot be destroyed

Just shift it away from making it more of a win top lane harder buff and make it more of a global reward that is worth taking over dragon early game.

StephenizgodOct 1, 20161 votes

I feel another big part of this is the First Blood Turret gold and Bot lane turret being easiest to take. Add all that on top of Dragon being Bot side and there is no real reason to go top unless Dragon is down or Turret first blood was already taken. As someone who picks Fill, I am a Support main basically and I have noticed that 4 or 5 people bot before 8-10 minutes is not uncommon at all.

I feel if Rift Herald was more important it could give some breathing room for Bot lane, because right now its basically whoever wins bot lane has a huge advantage for the rest of the game. Rift Herald shouldn't be equal to Dragon, but it would be nice if you could take it without feeling bad that you are losing Dragon and a Turret.

FallenSeruvimOct 1, 20161 votes

I for one as a top laner LOVE when my jungler gets me Rift Herald. If I'm doing well top with Renek and my jungler listens and gets me the buff, it helps a lot with top carries. I would LOVE to see a Rift Herald "buff" buff. Lol did I say that right? This could do wonders for top lane carries and split pushers being shuved out of the spot light right now.

Current meta consists of tanky disruptive saviors for 5v5 team fights, or huge aoe 5v5 team fighters =/. There's not much flavor there, so you've got Poppy, Gnar, and Shen, and Maokai then Rumble and Kennen. Lol. Again. This would be amazing and bring back Jax, Renek, Darius, Fiora, maaaaaaybe even Quinn? Who knows.

BlainezyOct 1, 20161 votes

What about making it sort of like dragon. Where elder boosts dragon effects. Would it be possible to give teams an added effect from taking baron IF they were the ones to secure rift herald in the same game?

VallalanOct 1, 20161 votes

What if herald gave something more of utility rather than combat stats that is more valuable to top and mid side of the map.

what if someone with herald had true vision (oracles) for the duration of the buff, what if they could deal massively increased damage to scuttle to control vision of the river easier, what if the buff itself lowered teleport cooldown timer?

I feel like right now it gives this straight up combat buff that is nice for a top laner, but the enemy top laner can just choose to not interact so thus its not prioritized. it also heavily favors split pushers rather than team fighters.

Can Rift Herald be more substantial?

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