it should be an ability with an active and a passive portion.
the passive portion adds the 3 hit passive with the % max health damage as physical damage, and the active portion turns it to true damage for a short duration, and is put on a long cooldown timer (~20 seconds).
would give that blasted champion finally a window of weakness and some counterplay.
especially if youre planning to give her a 600 health anti burst shield.
Ragnaveil43 votesYa know, that doesn't sound that terrible actually. Varus' W got changed for the same thing: It was too strong of a on hit passive so they had to shift power to an active. This would also open up chances for her to get good stat buffs for early game to make up for the change. Yes, she should be weak early, but if we nerf her like this, it might hurt her a little bit too much if compensation for the power allocation isn't considered.
KFCeytron7 votes
Critmaster Garen17 votesWe've been over this. Just because you can't manage the counterplay doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Practice against Vayne instead of spamming threads about it.
no one has presented any argument to what counterplay her kit actually offers.
all ive seen so far is a bunch of people being adamant about it being in there somewhere.
i want a direct answer to a direct question. which ability in her kit is inherently outplayable? go.
Elohaven3 votesPeople have and you've been adamant with saying "no - you're wrong" and just giving anecdotals.
There's no point in arguing. You won't consider anything else that disagrees with you.
Critmaster Garen11 votesPeople have and you've been adamant with saying "no - you're wrong" and just giving anecdotals.
There's no point in arguing. You won't consider anything else that disagrees with you.
my argument is that vayne lacks mechanical counterplay.
until now no one has presented a counterargument. the only answers so far were
"well the vayne can just play bad"
"well vayne has short range" (which isnt true if you dont just regard adc and mages, but melee champions aswell)
"well vayne can get counterpicked by x"
"well vayne isnt even played in pro play" (which ive directly disproven)
none of this had anything to do with mechanical counterplay.
i asked a direct question. "which ability in vaynes kit has mechanical counterplay?"
im still waiting for anyone to give an answer to this question. so far, no one has. because you cant. because there isnt such an ability in her kit. only the stun on her e, which is such a minor part of her kit that outplaying it still doesnt win you a fight against her. landing it practically guarantees her winning against you, but getting displaced by her is enough for a lot of champions to still automatically lose against her.
Elohaven5 votesHer E has clear mechanical counterplay. You can stay out of an angle towards a wall for her E and block the ability with an item or an ability.
You can CC her or kite out her range. You can slow her. Slowing a Vayne destroys them.
Her Q+stealth has mechanical counterplay since it requires autos from her to be efficient. Use this knowledge to force her to stay out of stealth. Hard, but effective mechanical counterplay.
Her W has mechanical counterplay since it requires 3 autos to proc. Thus, you can prevent that or shield yourself to play against it. You can also heal yourself. Autos can be reduced through armor+damage significantly.
Vayne's Attack Speed can be reduced through items.
ADCs trade a lot of survivability for auto-attacks which do not have mechanical counterplay. That's the point of ADCs. High DPS machines that you need to mow down.
There are different classes, and ADCs have the least mechanical counterplay but have a lot more contextual and situational counterplay which you're not considering.
Critmaster Garen17 votesHer E has clear mechanical counterplay. You can stay out of an angle towards a wall for her E and block the ability with an item or an ability.
You can CC her or kite out her range.
ccing her implies a targeted ranged cc ability. only very few champions have this in their kits. its not counterplay that is inherent to vaynes kit.
you cant kite out of her range, because she gains bonus movement speed on you when you try. she also has ranged auto attacks, and short cooldown mobility.
how do you propose a melee champion like 
kites in and out of 550 + tumble range auto attack range before she landed 3 attacks on you?
i want you to realize how impossible it is to kite in and out of her attack range to drop the stacks. she isnt a slow melee champion like darius who only has his base movement speed and 175 attack range to work with.
You can slow her. Slowing a Vayne destroys them.
if you have a slow ability or a slow item and get into melee range of her. how do you do that when she has her e? how would it affect her, if she can stil disengage on you with her e despite being slowed?
again, this is specific to the champion youre playing.
Her Q+stealth has mechanical counterplay since it requires autos from her to be efficient.
LFMAO
do you even understand what mechanical counterplay is? its something that is in your control and not entirely in vaynes control.
Use this knowledge to force her to stay out of stealth.
you cant force her out of stealth. it has a fixed duration.
Her W has mechanical counterplay since it requires 3 autos to proc. Thus, you can prevent that or shield yourself to play against it. You can also heal yourself. Autos can be reduced through armor+damage significantly.
it is literally impossible to kite in and out of her auto attack range before she gets 3 attacks (2 with rageblade) off.
heals and shields just extend your health bar. they dont specifically counter her w.
which champion in this game has a shield that he can proc every single second in the rythm of vaynes w proc?
Vayne's Attack Speed can be reduced through items.
a little, yes. its a counterbuild i give you that. but its not very effective, since she can artificially increase her attack speed with q auto attack resets.
ADCs trade a lot of survivability for auto-attacks which do not have mechanical counterplay. That's the point of ADCs. High DPS machines that you need to mow down.
when im talking about mechanical counterplay, im talking about a weakness in vaynes kit that you can play around no matter the champion youre playing yourself.
if melee carries need to be designed around having mechanical counterplay in their kits, then ranged carries should be held to the same design standarts. since their range grants them already higher reliability through target access and frontloaded damage, they need to be held to even higher standarts.
the fact that they arent is the reason why the class is so toxic and so hard to balance.
skillshot abilities for example have mechanical counterplay. you can dodge them. it doesnt matter which champion youre playing. every champion in the game can sidestep a skillshot ability.
fioras vitals have mechanical counterplay. no matter which champion in the game youre playing, you can position yourself to hide vitals inside walls and protect them from being being attacked by fiora.
urgots shotgun legs have mechanical counterplay. no matter which champion youre playing, you can outposition him in a way, where he doesnt get more than a single leg proc on you by moving so you face the same side of his hitbox while fighting him.
vayne has no such element in her kit, except for the stun on her e. the problem is, the stun happens to be attached to a direct target displacement that you still take even when she misses the stun itself.
kargish5 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=001100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T05:55:25.337+0000)
if melee carries need to be designed around having mechanical counterplay in their kits, then ranged carries should be held to the same design standarts. since their range grants them already higher reliability through target access and frontloaded damage, they need to be held to even higher standarts.
Agreed.
The majority of melees are heavily dependant on landing their kit to be effective, though often the reward is also significant 
etc.
Ranged carries aren't restricted to this and the only real criteria for them is to be alive and in range to be at full effectiveness. It's one of the reasons why I consider 
to be among the best designed marksmen. There are multiple ways to reduce his effectiveness, by either preventing Q from increasing in damage through positioning, or dodging his most potent long ranged abilities.
Not to mention that Jhin gives you plenty of opportunity to decide if you want to keep up the fight, or disengage before he executes a lethal fourth shot, after which he's vulnerable.
KFCeytron1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2019-01-30T04:37:24.223+0000)
no one has presented any argument to what counterplay her kit actually offers.
all ive seen so far is a bunch of people being adamant about it being in there somewhere.
i want a direct answer to a direct question. which ability in her kit is inherently outplayable? go.
I presented it. You didn't understand the difference between "it's too hard for me to disengage before her third hit" and "it is logically impossible to avoid the third hit." This thread is just whining. Spam whining, too, because you post the same thread regularly. You're the Duckin Sicks of Vayne; congratulations.
Paroe2 votesI presented it. You didn't understand the difference between "it's too hard for me to disengage before her third hit" and "it is logically impossible to avoid the third hit." This thread is just whining. Spam whining, too, because you post the same thread regularly. You're the Duckin Sicks of Vayne; congratulations.
So.... How do you out play a 1.0 total AD point and click nuke with a % chance to deal 200% damage thats on a 0.5 or less second cool down? On a champion with massive chase mobility due to a spammable ability and a huge flat MS steroid just for being around? It.... Dude this isnt smite. You cant outplay a marksmans basic attack. Vaynes entire kit is designed to work with itself so that all of vaynes weaknesses are covered. The tumble buff is solid proof of that. Also, this same argument is applicable to Akali, since her counterplay is literally walk away from her shroud. However, its not a 'real' argument and so many people will scream at you if you try to use it as one.
Just... Compare vayne to Vi. Vayne has; A passive that gives her a massive MS steroid which is always up. A Q with a less than 2 second cooldown that repositions and gives her stealth. A W that is always up and deals high %HP true damage. An E that is both a massive stun and a massive displacement. And an ultimate which gives her a massive AD steroid and buffs some of her abilities.
Meanwhile Vi has.... A passive that gives her 12% of her HP as a shield for a few seconds before going on cooldown when she uses an ability A Q that has to charge up to reposition and has an appreciable cooldown/ A W that deals %HP magic damage. An E that has a 6 second cooldown cone AoE. and an ultimate that gap closes.
Keep in mind Vi was literally meant to be the melee equivalent of Vayne. While vayne has 0 counterplay, Vi, a melee, is chock full of counterplay and is getting a slough of nerfs to give her MORE counter play so she has to work ten times harder to perform at the same level as her marksman counterpart.
KFCeytron4 votesSo.... How do you out play a 1.0 total AD point and click nuke with a % chance to deal 200% damage thats on a 0.5 or less second cool down? On a champion with massive chase mobility due to a spammable ability and a huge flat MS steroid just for being around? It.... Dude this isnt smite. You cant outplay a marksmans basic attack. Vaynes entire kit is designed to work with itself so that all of vaynes weaknesses are covered. The tumble buff is solid proof of that. Also, this same argument is applicable to Akali, since her counterplay is literally walk away from her shroud. However, its not a 'real' argument and so many people will scream at you if you try to use it as one.
Just... Compare vayne to Vi. Vayne has; A passive that gives her a massive MS steroid which is always up. A Q with a less than 2 second cooldown that repositions and gives her stealth. A W that is always up and deals high %HP true damage. An E that is both a massive stun and a massive displacement. And an ultimate which gives her a massive AD steroid and buffs some of her abilities.
Meanwhile Vi has.... A passive that gives her 12% of her HP as a shield for a few seconds before going on cooldown when she uses an ability A Q that has to charge up to reposition and has an appreciable cooldown/ A W that deals %HP magic damage. An E that has a 6 second cooldown cone AoE. and an ultimate that gap closes.
Keep in mind Vi was literally meant to be the melee equivalent of Vayne. While vayne has 0 counterplay, Vi, a melee, is chock full of counterplay and is getting a slough of nerfs to give her MORE counter play so she has to work ten times harder to perform at the same level as her marksman counterpart.
Vayne's true damage doesn't apply on every attack. She needs three consecutive hits against the same target with under three seconds between hits. Knock her away, dash away, stun her, use an untargetable effect, whatever. That's the counterplay. It's more conditional and has more counterplay than most ADCs' steroids (Trist Q, Lucian passive, etc.).
I'm not going to compare Vayne to Vi because Vayne is a single-target marksman ADC while Vi is a tanky diving jungle fighter.
Saying "Vayne has 0 counterplay" doesn't make it true. The translation is "I'm not skilled enough to deal with Vayne." And that's okay! Not everyone is great at the game. I freely admit to being one of those bad players (nothing wrong with that), but I don't feel the need to make up excuses and claim that the counterplay doesn't exist just because I can't manage it.
Critmaster Garen3 votesVayne's true damage doesn't apply on every attack. She needs three consecutive hits against the same target with under three seconds between hits. Knock her away, dash away, stun her, use an untargetable effect, whatever. That's the counterplay. It's more conditional and has more counterplay than most ADCs' steroids (Trist Q, Lucian passive, etc.).
I'm not going to compare Vayne to Vi because Vayne is a single-target marksman ADC while Vi is a tanky diving jungle fighter.
Saying "Vayne has 0 counterplay" doesn't make it true. The translation is "I'm not skilled enough to deal with Vayne." And that's okay! Not everyone is great at the game. I freely admit to being one of those bad players (nothing wrong with that), but I don't feel the need to make up excuses and claim that the counterplay doesn't exist just because I can't manage it.
so youre just going to pretend that she cant apply all 3 stacks in literally less than a second?
this shit has nothing to do with "not being able to outskill her". she applies the stacks way too fast for anyone but the most mobile champions in the game to be able to kite in and out of her attack range to drop the stacks.
its physically impossible for most champions to work around a 3 hit mechanic on a champion who attacks twice per second from range and then gets another attack off an auto reset within that same timeframe.
like, you can maybe avoid getting hit by 3 attacks when youre playing shit like leblanc who can jump into her range, burst and instantly jump out, but not when youre playing almost every single other champion.
thats not even talking about rageblade, which means she literally can proc her w with a single auto + tumble.
vaynes 3 (2) hit passive doesnt create counterplay. a longass cooldown window on her main steroid would at least be something her opponents can work around.
KFCeytron3 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=001100000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T19:42:30.052+0000)
so youre just going to pretend that she cant apply all 3 stacks in literally less than a second?
this shit has nothing to do with "not being able to outskill her". she applies the stacks way too fast for anyone but the most mobile champions in the game to be able to kite in and out of her attack range to drop the stacks.
its physically impossible for most champions to work around a 3 hit mechanic on a champion who attacks twice per second from range and then gets another attack off an auto reset within that same timeframe.
like, you can maybe avoid getting hit by 3 attacks when youre playing shit like leblanc who can jump into her range, burst and instantly jump out, but not when youre playing almost every single other champion.
thats not even talking about rageblade, which means she literally can proc her w with a single auto + tumble.
vaynes 3 (2) hit passive doesnt create counterplay. a longass cooldown window on her main steroid would at least be something her opponents can work around.
Panth's basic abilities have no counterplay: if he's in range, he can leap to you, which stuns you so that you can't avoid his E, and then he has a targeted Q.
Vayne's W requires three consecutive hits on the same target, so the counterplay is to prevent her from doing that by disengaging or forcing her to attack another target. Avoid dueling her and engage in teamfights, don't 1v1 her in the jungle, try to stay reasonably close to a turret, and so on.
It's hard to prevent her from benefiting from her W, especially when she gets a Rageblade and a few more AS items. But that is a thing that can be done, although not easily. And yet, it's still easier to prevent than most other ADC steroids, and it has a lot less burst, too.
Critmaster Garen2 votesPanth's basic abilities have no counterplay: if he's in range, he can leap to you, which stuns you so that you can't avoid his E, and then he has a targeted Q.
thats why hes kept shit, and is on the major VGU list and didnt just receive buffs to force him into the meta because of a skin sale.
he has the same issues, and hes on a list to get his entire kit probably except his ult updated. i promise you, when theyre done with him hes going to have some form of minigame or some sort of glaring condition in his kit that he has to fulfill to successfully fight his opponent, and that you as his opponent will be able to actively deny him. his kit is not going to be a bunch of direct target cc and damage without counterplay anymore. because that type of kit - like vaynes - is cancer. but apparanly this is only a standart that we aknowledge for melee champions for some reason.
meanwhile vayne is still not going to have to do shit but auto attack a target to access her w. because she isnt even on the radar, because riot either doesnt realize or ignores their own double standarts.
Vayne's W requires three consecutive hits on the same target
WHICH SHE CAN DO LITERALLY IN LESS THAN A SECOND
she builds attack speed.
do i have it write it out in caps for you? do you not understand that only very few selected champions can kite in and out of her attack range in less than a second to avoid the proc and drop silver bolts stacks?
this has nothing to do with skill.
not even 
is in and out fast enough to not eat a silver bolts proc from vayne.
how does this mechanic create counterplay? ^^
im actually laughing right now. youre so biased, that you just ignore all the glaring issues that champion has. how do you expect anyone to kite in and out of her attack range in the time before she applied 3 stacks? except very very few handful of champions, most simply dont have the tools to be able to do it.
if she needed like 6 or 8 stacks, then yea. i might buy that explanation, but not when she hits you with the ability within 1 second without any chance for you to deny it like you can deny fioras vitals.
KFCeytron2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00110000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T20:20:25.158+0000)
thats why hes kept shit, and is on the major VGU list and didnt just receive buffs to force him into the meta because of a skin sale.
he has the same issues, and hes on a list to get his entire kit probably except his ult updated. i promise you, when theyre done with him hes going to have some form of minigame or some sort of glaring condition in his kit that he has to fulfill to successfully fight his opponent, and that you as his opponent will be able to actively deny him. his kit is not going to be a bunch of direct target cc and damage without counterplay anymore. because that type of kit - like vaynes - is cancer. but apparanly this is only a standart that we aknowledge for melee champions for some reason.
meanwhile vayne is still not going to have to do shit but auto attack a target to access her w. because she isnt even on the radar, because riot either doesnt realize or ignores their own double standarts.
WHICH SHE CAN DO LITERALLY IN LESS THAN A SECOND
she builds attack speed.
do i have it write it out in caps for you? do you not understand that only very few selected champions can kite in and out of her attack range in less than a second to avoid the proc and drop silver bolts stacks?
this has nothing to do with skill.
not even
how does this mechanic create counterplay? ^^
im actually laughing right now. youre so biased, that you just ignore all the glaring issues that champion has. how do you expect anyone to kite in and out of her attack range in the time before she applied 3 stacks? except very very few handful of champions, most simply dont have the tools to be able to do it.
if she needed like 6 or 8 stacks, then yea. i might buy that explanation, but not when she hits you with the ability within 1 second without any chance for you to deny it like you can deny fioras vitals.
Okay, totally unbiased Mr. Garen complaining about an anti-tank marksman.
Critmaster Garen2 votesOkay, totally unbiased Mr. Garen complaining about an anti-tank marksman.
and this is the moment where i know that you dont have anything to contribute anymore.
just like all the other guys who run out of arguments, you fall back to the "hes a garen main, so he cant be right" excuse to rationalise your opinion.
KFCeytron2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=0011000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T20:52:10.140+0000)
and this is the moment where i know that you dont have anything to contribute anymore.
just like all the other guys who run out of arguments, you fall back to the "hes a garen main, so he cant be right" excuse to rationalise your opinion.
"Bias" is the same argument you thought was just so incisive a couple hours ago, fren. I got tired of repeating myself, but I guess you'd rather die to Vayne and spam your whining on the forums than practice the counterplay you refuse to admit exists and maybe stop getting rolled. Have fun with that!
Daddy Ants2 votesOkay, totally unbiased Mr. Garen complaining about an anti-tank marksman.
Ofc he's crying about an anti tank marksman.
He can't build Trinity into full tank and roll face across keyboard and 1v9 on his braindead champ.
Z3Sleeper7 votesOnly if she says "Silver of the moon" every time she activates it.
Tormentula6 votesShe does have counterplay; vayne spotting and abusing her early game.
Vayne does crazy true damage sure, but when you really analyze it, she's single target and has to weave into dangerous situations. She's not a 
user, where whatever damage she's doing she's criting your whole team and your back line with 1k autos 
(not implying anything about them, but js vayne 3 procing 1k off of one player while other's are doing 500-1k to 3 people at once possibly even backline with longer range doesn't make her seem all that bad), so all-in-all, the true damage aspect is more managable then players would like to believe. Vayne herself is more of an anti-tank comp pick, she can carry but she mainly shines only with and against specific comps unless she's overtuned enough to thrive in all of them. If you wanted to nerf vayne, you're better off targetting other aspects of her kit (either the damage itself, base stats, or the recent ult buff), but really, its all specific to what the current meta is.
I don't see a reason to play with her mechanics, they already tried that with varus and it just feels so awful, and coincidentally he's been awful since lol, he at least used to be genuinely picked as a scaling marksmen, now its like he isn't played at all and when he is, well 47% winrate speaks for itself. Whether you make vayne's W an active, a passive, whatever its not going to change the reason why vayne is picked, why she's strong, or add any interactivity because its more emphasis on "did she remember to press it?" rather then "o i outplayed that W with my own skill." Consistency is easier to balance when you know the source of damage is guaranteed and can tune it, skill expression isn't.
Critmaster Garen13 votesShe does have counterplay; vayne spotting and abusing her early game.
are you kidding? relying on vayne to make a mistake has nothing to do with counterplay. what if both her and her opponent dont make mistakes? she just always wins? bullshit.
if melee carries are all designed around kit inbuilt counterplay, then ranged carries need it even more.
there needs to be some sort of weakness in her kit that you can abuse. some window of weakness, some sort of mechanic that you can outplay.
the only thing that comes close to it is the wall stun of her e. the only problem is, that the displacement on its own is so powerful that it barely matters if she even lands the stun. being able to just point and click disengage already wins her the fight most of the time.
Tormentula4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-01-30T00:48:42.398+0000)
are you kidding? relying on vayne to make a mistake has nothing to do with counterplay. what if both her and her opponent dont make mistakes? she just always wins? bullshit.
Idk what MMR you're in, but even in high MMR I assure you vayne players make a fuck ton of mistakes to abuse.
"what if both her and her opponent dont make mistakes? she just always wins?"
Mistakes as in misposition, get caught, not grouping, etc are ways a vayne can fuck her up own game.
Baiting out her Q and one shotting/CCing her in the window she's not invis (and you have 5 players who can do this) is on your end. I personally don't struggle with Vaynes and there's a fuck ton of smurfs where I'm at, its simple, save my shit for when she overcommits or continue to let her be inactive and get engaged on instead. If she has a team peeling that hard for her, well better team wins is a no brainer.
If you want to have an ADC hate discussion, by all means bring any of them up but vayne isn't one of those ADCs I'd consider problematic. Maybe players where I'm at just understand how to shut down a lane early better, and focus/follow up on a priority target better, doesn't mean when other players don't that its broken.
Critmaster Garen11 votesIdk what MMR you're in, but even in high MMR I assure you vayne players make a fuck ton of mistakes to abuse.
"what if both her and her opponent dont make mistakes? she just always wins?"
Mistakes as in misposition, get caught, not grouping, etc are ways a vayne can fuck her up own game.
Baiting out her Q and one shotting/CCing her in the window she's not invis (and you have 5 players who can do this) is on your end. I personally don't struggle with Vaynes and there's a fuck ton of smurfs where I'm at, its simple, save my shit for when she overcommits or continue to let her be inactive and get engaged on instead.
If you want to have an ADC hate discussion, by all means bring any of them up but vayne isn't one of those ADCs I'd consider problematic. Maybe players where I'm at just understand how to shut down a lane early better, and focus/follow up on a priority target better, doesn't mean when other players don't that its broken.
your argument is still.
"but she might play bad"
no buddy, thats not counterplay to a champion. thats just the guy playing like a moron. vayne doesnt actually have counterplay to her kit, and thats part of the problem with her, and why she tends to just skip the line between broken as shit and useless.
if you fight vayne, then you dont have any agency over the fight. shes just designed to win, and if she can beat you depends more on the guy playing her, than your ability to make a play on her.
Elohaven4 votesVayne is supposed to excel in duels.
Just like Yasuo and Kai'Sa should destroy you 1-on-1 and Fiora, Vayne as well. Except, Vayne has more weaknesses and less safety nets. Also, it's more of skill/purely conditional matchup between other duelist champions.
Critmaster Garen9 votesVayne is supposed to excel in duels.
Just like Yasuo and Kai'Sa should destroy you 1-on-1 and Fiora, Vayne as well. Except, Vayne has more weaknesses and less safety nets. Also, it's more of skill/purely conditional matchup between other duelist champions.
she excells in duels and teamfights.
when is the time to fight her then?
vayne has more weaknesses and less safety nets than yasuo? her mobility is unconditional. yasuo has to target enemy units. if there arent enemy units around, yasuo literally cant access his dash. vayne can always access her tumble.
yasuo actually has to carry in melee range and not from a distance which means he has to get up close and personal with his opponent(s). his windwall has a massive cooldown window, is stationary and does shit against other melee champions. his ult is literally disabled until he hits a knockup, which is avoidable by his opponent.
i ask you again. what ability in vaynes kit can you possibly avoid and outplay?
Elohaven5 votes[sg-lux-2]
Vayne does not excel in teamfights. There's a reason she is not in pro-play and gets shit on the higher your elo.
She's a duelist who exploits mistakes and opportunities which is why she can do well in SoloQ but sucks against coordinate teamplay. Also, you can destroy her early to mid-game. She's also very easy to punish with how many mistakes you can make in her kit in 1 game.
Else, you'd see her shine every day against Caitlyn, Jinx, etc. The only reason they're not popular right now is because crit ADCs got gutted because people like you have complained about how much crit was hurting the game.
Critmaster Garen5 votes[sg-lux-2]
Vayne does not excel in teamfights. There's a reason she is not in pro-play and gets shit on the higher your elo.
She's a duelist who exploits mistakes and opportunities which is why she can do well in SoloQ but sucks against coordinate teamplay. Also, you can destroy her early to mid-game. She's also very easy to punish with how many mistakes you can make in her kit in 1 game.
Else, you'd see her shine every day against Caitlyn, Jinx, etc. The only reason they're not popular right now is because crit ADCs got gutted because people like you have complained about how much crit was hurting the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZT9yB2TXQ
the LCK isnt pro play? better go and tell the koreans not to pick her again.
ok then.
Elohaven4 votesYikes.
Patch 8.1 Vayne. That's some bias right there man. Everyone knew she was OP then and she got hit HARD in 8.2, resulting in her late-game getting gutted. (Fun Fact: She hit 14th place late-game pre-buff)
Outside, of that, more than on average - yes. Vayne sucks at teamfights and isn't picked in team. That one case doesn't validate your stance that Vayne excels everywhere.
OrangeMarine4 votesIdk what MMR you're in, but even in high MMR I assure you vayne players make a fuck ton of mistakes to abuse.
"what if both her and her opponent dont make mistakes? she just always wins?"
Mistakes as in misposition, get caught, not grouping, etc are ways a vayne can fuck her up own game.
Baiting out her Q and one shotting/CCing her in the window she's not invis (and you have 5 players who can do this) is on your end. I personally don't struggle with Vaynes and there's a fuck ton of smurfs where I'm at, its simple, save my shit for when she overcommits or continue to let her be inactive and get engaged on instead. If she has a team peeling that hard for her, well better team wins is a no brainer.
If you want to have an ADC hate discussion, by all means bring any of them up but vayne isn't one of those ADCs I'd consider problematic. Maybe players where I'm at just understand how to shut down a lane early better, and focus/follow up on a priority target better, doesn't mean when other players don't that its broken.
thats what the boards and low elo in general is. no team cohesion, no fucking any knowledge about how to properly exploit a champ's weaknesses/window of vulnerability.
so u just have idiots ramming their chubs into everything and then complaining why it doesnt work when usually it's on them for blowing their load at the wrong time
Daddy Ants1 votes[deleted]
Critmaster Garen35 votesShe has a window of weakness.
It's called the early game.
melee carries have to bend over backwards to achieve some kind of win condition. riot takes excessive care that they all have some form of counterplay built into their kits that is present at all stages of the game.
fioras vitals can be outplayed by outpositioning her, aatrox damage can be avoided by dodging his q, darius has to get 5 bleed stacks on a target before he can pop off, garen is shit against everyone but the villain, even yi has a longass cooldown on his e that only gives him a short window in which he can access his true damage.
meanwhile you have ranged carries like vayne running around with their steroids on some sort of easily accessable passive. she will always be cancer as long as her w doesnt have some sort of mechanic that you can play around as her opponent.
a cooldown window on her w would at least be something.
they should be held to the same design standarts as melee carries and have counterplay directly built into their kits. i see no reason why ranged carries keep getting special treatment in that regard.
The thigh guy5 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-01-29T23:52:58.779+0000)
melee carries have to bend over backwards to achieve some kind of win condition. riot takes excessive care that they all have some form of counterplay built into their kits that is present at all stages of the game.
fioras vitals can be outplayed by outpositioning her, aatrox damage can be avoided by dodging his q, darius has to get 5 bleed stacks on a target before he can pop off, garen is shit against everyone but the villain, even yi has a longass cooldown on his e that only gives him a short window in which he can access his true damage.
meanwhile you have ranged carries like vayne running around with their steroids on some sort of easily accessable passive. she will always be cancer as long as her w doesnt have some sort of mechanic that you can play around as her opponent.
a cooldown window on her w would at least be something.
they should be held to the same design standarts as melee carries and have counterplay directly built into their kits. i see no reason why ranged carries keep getting special treatment in that regard.
Ranged carries are consistently shit on. Lol there are items that specifically got nerfed for ranged carries but not for melee. Not to mention they are almost always squishier, have less hard cc which is also more conditional.
Critmaster Garen13 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:08:28.145+0000)
Ranged carries are consistently shit on. Lol there are items that specifically got nerfed for ranged carries but not for melee. Not to mention they are almost always squishier, have less hard cc which is also more conditional.
and yet, theyre still consistently outperforming melee carries.
The thigh guy6 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:16:17.629+0000)
and yet, theyre still consistently outperforming melee carries.
Aight. Let’s have some fun. Top 5 win rates per role. Plat + cause average players.
Top lane Wu Kong Yoric Sion Nasus Quinn
Jungle Tryndamere Nunu Udyr Rammus Shyvana
Mid (ranged dominated) Kayle Zilean Vel koz Malzahar ahri
Bot (ranged dominated) Donger Ziggs Twitch Jinx Sivir
Support (range dominated) Sona Zyra Zilean Nami Soraka
So out of 5 roles. 2 are vastly dominated by melee champions. (One entirely) but somehow range champions are over performing? [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Definetly seeing it.
Critmaster Garen9 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:27:58.498+0000)
Aight. Let’s have some fun. Top 5 win rates per role. Plat + cause average players.
Top lane Wu Kong Yoric Sion Nasus Quinn
Jungle Tryndamere Nunu Udyr Rammus Shyvana
Mid (ranged dominated) Kayle Zilean Vel koz Malzahar ahri
Bot (ranged dominated) Donger Ziggs Twitch Jinx Sivir
Support (range dominated) Sona Zyra Zilean Nami Soraka
So out of 5 roles. 2 are vastly dominated by melee champions. (One entirely) but somehow range champions are over performing? [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Definetly seeing it.
right, wukong with his massive 0.7% pickrate in top lane and 1.6% in the jungle isnt garbage in 1 out of 100 matchups.
and i have never even once seen a yorick 1v9 carry games like vayne. because there is actually shit you can do to make plays on him and stop him. dodge his w, his e, orb walk on his ghouls and youre fine. its entirely in your hands.
what mechanic in vaynes kit allows you control over a fight with her exactly?
The thigh guy5 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=000500000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:46:34.812+0000)
right, wukong with his massive 0.7% pickrate in top lane and 1.6% in the jungle.
and i have never even once seen a yorick 1v9 carry games like vayne. because there is actually shit you can do to make plays on him and stop him. dodge his w, his e and youre fine. its entirely in your hands.
what mechanic in vaynes kit allows you control over a fight with her exactly?
The mechanic where to deal damage she has to build glass cannon? You know, the type of champion that dies to a stray ludens proc?
If you lose to a Vayne 1v5 it’s because no one picked any hard cc, in which case it’s entirely your own fault for losing to her. She doesn’t get anything that reduces it, outside of qss, which she can’t afford to buy because adc items are so expensive, and if she gets merc treads and for some reason an elixir of iron, she gives up sustain and a shit ton of damage.
As for yoric, that champion is stupid af. I’ve also never seen a leblanc 1v9 carry a game, does that mean she’s fair and balanced now? 0.0
Critmaster Garen12 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=0005000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:51:58.191+0000)
The mechanic where to deal damage she has to build glass cannon? You know, the type of champion that dies to a stray ludens proc?
If you lose to a Vayne 1v5 it’s because no one picked any hard cc, in which case it’s entirely your own fault for losing to her. She doesn’t get anything that reduces it, outside of qss, which she can’t afford to buy because adc items are so expensive, and if she gets merc treads and for some reason an elixir of iron, she gives up sustain and a shit ton of damage.
As for yoric, that champion is stupid af. I’ve also never seen a leblanc 1v9 carry a game, does that mean she’s fair and balanced now? 0.0
leblanc is a symptom of champions like vayne.
you have to have broken in the game to beat broken.
is leblanc fair? no. but neither is vayne. thats why unfair champions like leblanc are neccessary. maybe if we changed champions like vayne to actually have some counterplay in their kits, we wouldnt have to rely on unfair champion counters to beat them.
The thigh guy7 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00050000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:55:55.041+0000)
leblanc is a symptom of champions like vayne.
you have to have broken in the game to beat broken.
is leblanc fair? no. but neither is vayne. thats why unfair champions like leblanc are neccessary. maybe if we changed champions like vayne to actually have some counterplay in their kits, we wouldnt have to rely on unfair champion counters to beat them.
How is she unfair. 500 range, auto attack reliant, late game, situational cc and little to no utility. That’s like saying gangplank isn’t fair because his barrels ignore some armor and he’s powerful late game.
Here’s the counterplay. Burst her out. Or hell, use the argument everyone else uses for champions that are even slightly strong. JuSt cC hER.
Hayaishi29 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=000500000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T02:08:43.545+0000)
How is she unfair. 500 range, auto attack reliant, late game, situational cc and little to no utility. That’s like saying gangplank isn’t fair because his barrels ignore some armor and he’s powerful late game.
Here’s the counterplay. Burst her out. Or hell, use the argument everyone else uses for champions that are even slightly strong. JuSt cC hER.
Vayne has 0 counterplay. If the counterplay to everything is simply "cc her" "blow her up" then we should never ever nerf a champion since every single champion is vulnerable to either of these. Don't nerf Irelia because you can cc her lmao.
Vayne is a cancer that can't be allowed to be good because when she is she warps the game around herself. Every single time she is not trash she is obnoxious to deal with and the game becomes about stopping Vayne.
She's not even a high skill champion, if she was people could succeed with her even when she isn't meta, she's a pure stat check.
Vayne's range should be 525 for her to actually be exploitable.
Eonslegacy3 votesMate if i had a champ with a right click that said Enemy champ just dies, instantly but had 150 auto range, and no gapcloser or other ability, he would be broken and unbalancable even if he was kitable or what not. Predator boots, rightous glory, the rocket belt, flash and ghost pretty much make range a nonfactor for most champs at some point if thats their only counterplay. If vayne is ever allowed to be her past season self, where she crit her q, youd start seeing predator boot vayne bot running ghost, she would randomly appear in your mid lane and right click your syndra for 2.8k damage in 1 auto.
Vayne is balanced around the OTHER adcs being MORE broken than her.
Melee champs like 
are what makes adcs cry, BS mechanics that literally remove ALL counterplay from a champion. The only way loses is if her stats just arent high enough to win, as she is ALWAYS the one that picks the engage. Adcs are the equivalent of Camille at all stages as their ranged autos are for some reason allowed to do 700 damage or more every half second at some point, so the game HAS TO end before they come online, or everyone and their mother HAS to be able to 1 shot them with 0 counterplay skills to be viable.
Need to town down damage of adcs and buff tankiness of adcs, make them more urgot like(except urgots shotgunknees are kinda brokenly high precentage health damage tacked on for no reason other than to compete with other things that have rediculous damage).
The thigh guy3 votesMate if i had a champ with a right click that said Enemy champ just dies, instantly but had 150 auto range, and no gapcloser or other ability, he would be broken and unbalancable even if he was kitable or what not. Predator boots, rightous glory, the rocket belt, flash and ghost pretty much make range a nonfactor for most champs at some point if thats their only counterplay. If vayne is ever allowed to be her past season self, where she crit her q, youd start seeing predator boot vayne bot running ghost, she would randomly appear in your mid lane and right click your syndra for 2.8k damage in 1 auto. Vayne is balanced around the OTHER adcs being MORE broken than her. Melee champs like
Issue being that Adc is garbage for 30 minutes. That’s a 30 minute time frame, where they are the worst champion on the team. Why shouldn’t they be rewarded after surviving that?
Eonslegacy2 votesI love how theirs not really a melee carry in this list except from the jungle. I see Tanky tanky tanky tanky, assasin, Nasus(which isnt even top 100 on masters or diamonds list XD) then jg has melee champs because they have the 2v1 advantage, then ranged carries all the way down form there. NOw the arent ranged AD carries, but ranged carries non the less.
FrozenFrostFyre1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euIcEbI8,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-01-29T23:52:58.779+0000)
melee carries have to bend over backwards to achieve some kind of win condition. riot takes excessive care that they all have some form of counterplay built into their kits that is present at all stages of the game.
fioras vitals can be outplayed by outpositioning her, aatrox damage can be avoided by dodging his q, darius has to get 5 bleed stacks on a target before he can pop off, garen is shit against everyone but the villain, even yi has a longass cooldown on his e that only gives him a short window in which he can access his true damage.
meanwhile you have ranged carries like vayne running around with their steroids on some sort of easily accessable passive. she will always be cancer as long as her w doesnt have some sort of mechanic that you can play around as her opponent.
a cooldown window on her w would at least be something.
they should be held to the same design standarts as melee carries and have counterplay directly built into their kits. i see no reason why ranged carries keep getting special treatment in that regard.
This argument is so flawed and the only way you will ever be able to understand is going and playing adc's so you understand the massive stat differences between melee and range.
I would fucking love for range carries to get the same standards as melee that would be a massive improvement.
Yi gets q resets and can dash around and be untargetable while also 2 hitting sqishies making him just as bad if not worse than vayne too btw. Darius can kill 1 person with his r to get a 1auto 5 stacks onto anyone else. Garen is extremely simplistic to play so he obviously gets less power. Fiora vitals dive her huge % hp truedamage so of course she has to hit them correctly, but with a low CD dash as reset and repose it's a fluid and powerful kit. Half the characters in the game have damage that you can avoid by dodging their stuff so the aatrox comment feels really hallarious that he is the one and not someone like xerath who has 4 skillshots. Or just mage chars in general.
Adcs have to play around divers/assassin's that can kill them instantly at all stanges of the game doesn't even matter I'd the zed is 0/4 still can one shot the ADC. Positioning is more important on ADC than any other class in the game and out of every class typically adc's lack the most cc. Or it's gated behind their long r CD or specific conditions like vayne condemn.
kingDeDeDarius2 votesThis argument is so flawed and the only way you will ever be able to understand is going and playing adc's so you understand the massive stat differences between melee and range.
I would fucking love for range carries to get the same standards as melee that would be a massive improvement.
Yi gets q resets and can dash around and be untargetable while also 2 hitting sqishies making him just as bad if not worse than vayne too btw. Darius can kill 1 person with his r to get a 1auto 5 stacks onto anyone else. Garen is extremely simplistic to play so he obviously gets less power. Fiora vitals dive her huge % hp truedamage so of course she has to hit them correctly, but with a low CD dash as reset and repose it's a fluid and powerful kit. Half the characters in the game have damage that you can avoid by dodging their stuff so the aatrox comment feels really hallarious that he is the one and not someone like xerath who has 4 skillshots. Or just mage chars in general.
Adcs have to play around divers/assassin's that can kill them instantly at all stanges of the game doesn't even matter I'd the zed is 0/4 still can one shot the ADC. Positioning is more important on ADC than any other class in the game and out of every class typically adc's lack the most cc. Or it's gated behind their long r CD or specific conditions like vayne condemn.
The only "condition" on vayne's point and click self peel is whether she knocks you back and stuns you, or merely knocks you back and slows you. Honestly, there is no counterplay to that. That knockback is all she needs at most. If anything, her E needs to become a skill shot, or her W an active as Critmaster suggested. Oh, and if adcs had same standards as melees, no melee would be viable, ever, so don't even wish such a horrible fate on league
FenjaminBranklen2 votesVayne doesnt have to play around assassins/divers. If they gapclose onto her she just E's them away. It doesn't matter if they hit a wall, she can use E just to create distance and get away, creating even more distance with q so that you can't even flash to get back onto her.
Daddy Ants1 votesVayne doesnt have to play around assassins/divers. If they gapclose onto her she just E's them away. It doesn't matter if they hit a wall, she can use E just to create distance and get away, creating even more distance with q so that you can't even flash to get back onto her.
Yet most assassin gap closers are low cooldown.
Condemn is 20 fucking seconds.
and she does NOT build cdr.
Bears Dont Care2 votesYet most assassin gap closers are low cooldown.
What? Which ones?
Everyone assassin's gap closer is at least 14s to 20s long. The oly exception is Kayn's Q which is 5s at the least, but the range is 350. Condemn's range is 550
Condemn is 20 fucking seconds.
and she does NOT build cdr.
This is such a terribly flawed argument. what duel lasts more than 20 seconds? What duel comes even close? Bringing up the cooldown of condemn is a terribly misleading argument
FenjaminBranklen2 votesYeah i think like, kha leap gets to be around 10 seconds late. But that's irrelevant. He jumped onto her because there was an opening. She just E's him away and then the opening is gone and if he tries to jump on her again she's now safely tucked into her team. Add on top of that botrk slow(which she does build) and there's almost no way to catch her unless she severely misplays, and having to rely on her misplaying is not counterplay.
Edit: also, at max rank, her condemn cooldown is 12 seconds. Essence reaver is also not unheard of on her. Nor is new Deaths dance. As a toplaner Triforce is good on her because of Q's low cooldown. She can also go duskblade and if she waits out the stealth on her ult Q she can proc that, and that item gives 10%. I've also seen people on vayne sell popped GA for Cleaver lategame until GA is back up. She does sometimes build some CDR. It's not a stat she prioritizes, but she can and often does get some.
Eonslegacy2 votes24 second cd zed W zed doesnt max this ability neither does vayne, Its not low cd gap closers its MULTIPLE gap closers. Viable assasins dont gap close 1 time they gap close 2 or 3. zed w r, kayn qr, camile E e r, kha zix E r, and so on.
Eonslegacy2 votesMelee champs are given BS to deal with the raw BS power that ranged harass is. Melee champs should be stronger in melee than ranged champs are, but yet they arent always stronger in melee than ranged champs. This is evident when lucian has the STRONGEST lvl 1 in league when they did the strongest lvl 1 video. When ranged champs were given dashes, they pretty much said they were ok with their being NO COUNTERPLAY for some champs against most of the others. Think udyr for example. What does udyr do against a caitlynn in the top lane? How does udyr even get on caitlynn? How Does he get on caitlynn and STAY on caitlynn? He doesnt so he has to flash and in the time of the bear stun, he has to just kill her thats it. Udyr either has to be so tanky his turtle stance spam makes him unkillable by cait, or he has to be able to just flash instagib. Thats one major flaw with league(and why udyrs a jungler and probably why the jungle even exists to begin with).