Preseason 9 should be dedicated to a summoner spell rework.

Critmaster Garen·Sep 21, 2017·9 votes·960 views

its pretty absurd how many champions and balanced abilities has broken, and the champions have been dumpstered or had to be balanced around the summoner as a result.

body slam taunt knockup

just to name a few big ones who have recently been in the spotlight.

yes, the summoner has its benefits and flash interactions can be fun at times. but there are as many times where theyre just as disgusting and unfair to deal with.

flash is also the largest offender when it comes to suffocating summoner spell diversity.

its been a long time coming, and i think we finally have to deal with flash and evaluate our options.

26 Comments

mad grimmSep 21, 20172 votes

stop being a pussycat and l2flash faster

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=mad grimm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-21T22:37:13.712+0000)

stop being a pussycat and l2flash faster

i dont think you really understand what im talking about.

this isnt about who flashes first, but how flash interacts with certain abilities in ways that it removes their counterplay and hence these champions became massive picks at high ranks in solo que and in the pro scene and got repeatedly nerfed around these flash plays as a result.

these abilities by themselves are well designed and healthy, but theyre broken by their flash interactions.

for example you can miss the dash for a shen taunt and still get it by flashing on top of your opponent during the dash animation, without giving him a chance to react or outplay the ability.

there have been numerous of these interactions over the years.

but its not just flash that is problematic. other summoner spells have their own issues being too heavily tied to a certain role instead of a playstile of the individual player.

mad grimmSep 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-21T22:44:21.359+0000)

these abilities by themselves are well designed and healthy, but theyre broken by their flash interactions.

for example you can miss the dash for a shen taunt and still get it by flashing on top of your opponent during the dash animation, without giving him a chance to react or outplay the ability.

flashing to connect a spell is to ensure a swift catch/kill.. its not op...

Op would be having an invulnerable ability every 5 secs cough fizz cough

you say its broken.. but you can only do it every 5 minutes.. (flash cd)

and its countered if you have good enough prediction/reaction..

If i know gragas is gonna gank me & I know his flash is up.. best believe i'm flashing as soon as i see body slam going off and he's nowhere near me cuz i know he's gonna flash to connect..

I understand what you're trying to say but you're viewing it in a very bias way... these plays can only be made by a small amount of champions and every 5 minutes.. so to say its op.. is kind of a long reach..

UnboundHadesSep 21, 20172 votes

There is no reaction to flash u have to predict it, its instant

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=mad grimm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-21T23:01:08.768+0000)

flashing to connect a spell is to ensure a swift catch/kill.. its not op...

Op would be having an invulnerable ability every 5 secs cough fizz cough

you say its broken.. but you can only do it every 5 minutes.. (flash cd)

and its countered if you have good enough prediction/reaction..

If i know gragas is gonna gank me & I know his flash is up.. best believe i'm flashing as soon as i see body slam going off and he's nowhere near me cuz i know he's gonna flash to connect..

I understand what you're trying to say but you're viewing it in a very bias way... these plays can only be made by a small amount of champions and every 5 minutes.. so to say its op.. is kind of a long reach..

these interactions keep popping up, and theyre obviously causing balance issues. this isnt even just my own opinion. the same champions have often been hit by nerf trains due to these flash interactions to the point where their entire effectiveness depends on if they have flash ready.

riot is tackling to rework an archaic and outdated system with the dual customization system of runes and masteries for season 8.

the next one would imo be summoner spells, which are plagued by the same problems of imbalance between summoner spells and lacking diversity in playstiles around summoner spells.

mad grimmSep 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-21T23:08:54.561+0000)

these interactions keep popping up, and theyre obviously causing balance issues. this isnt even just my own opinion. the same champions have often been hit by nerf trains due to these flash interactions to the point where their entire effectiveness depends on if they have flash ready.

name 2 more champions that have the same flash mechanic? .. They don't keep popping up.

RekSai doesn't even have this mechanic.. he simply just flashes to gap close and w to knock up.

neither grag or shen have been hit with nerf trains, and their entire effectiveness does NOT depend on having flash ready.

Have you played this game longer than a month? I don't see your logic.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=mad grimm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-21T23:16:49.942+0000)

name 2 more champions that have the same flash mechanic? .. They don't keep popping up.

doesn't even have this mechanic.. he simply just flashes to gap close and w to knock up.

neither grag or shen have been hit with nerf trains, and their entire effectiveness does NOT depend on having flash ready.

Have you played this game longer than a month? I don't see your logic.

how about LeeSin and his goodamn w + flash ult ganks? and his ability to reposition with flash while youre stunned in the kick animation?

ive seen people talk about Rammus recently and its in the same line of bypassing counterplay by flash engaging with a power ball knockup.

ive already seen videos of the new reworked XinZhao being able to extend his w range with flash.

gragas and shen have both been nerfed in previous seasons around their flash engages. so did reksai.

reksai was never even intended to be built like a tank. the entire reason it happened was, because flash knockup engages on ganks were too reliable, and they kept gutting her damage in return to the point where her entire effectiveness was tied to her knockup engages. people started switching from bruiser builds to tank builds and played her as a flash engage bot.

you cant deny that flash has caused many issues over the years and even warped certain champions power budgets around its use.

mad grimmSep 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-21T23:23:19.814+0000)

how about and his goodamn w + flash ult ganks? and his ability to reposition with flash while youre stunned in the kick animation?

gragas and shen have both been nerfed in previous seasons around their flash engages. so did reksai.

reksai was never even intended to be built like a tank. the entire reason it happened was, because flash knockup engages on ganks were too reliable, and they kept gutting her damage in return. people stated switching from bruiser builds to tank builds and played her as a flash engage bot.

ive seen people talk about recently and its in the same line of bypassing counterplay by flash engaging with a power ball knockup.

So.. pretty much in your opinion the SS "flash" is op..? bc you're pretty much just giving me examples of how flash can be used.. Almost any champ can FLASH > USE CC .

Dash-Flash mechanics like Grag, Shen are strong but like i said, wasting a 5min summoner to connect is not OP.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=mad grimm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-21T23:31:06.524+0000)

So.. pretty much in your opinion the SS "flash" is op..? bc you're pretty much just giving me examples of how flash can be used.. Almost any champ can FLASH > USE CC .

Dash-Flash mechanics like Grag, Shen are strong but like i said, wasting a 5min summoner to connect is not OP.

flash is op. thats why its mandatory.

but thats besides the point. except from being probably the most universal powerful summoner, it can be problematic by interacting poorly with certain abilities.

ThunderneedleSep 21, 20172 votes

Considering they nerfed ghost to force people to take flash....

Yeah, they don't care

REVERT GHOST! Why even nerf the 2% ghost users and not the 98% flash users??????

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Considering they nerfed ghost to force people to take flash....

Yeah, they don't care

REVERT GHOST! Why even nerf the 2% ghost users and not the 98% flash users??????

they nerfed ghost, because every mid laner was running flash and ghost.

make of that what you will, but when when ghost was picked, it wasnt even a viable alternative to flash, but only to the other secondary summoner spells next to flash.

Blue MystifiedSep 22, 20172 votes

I think his point is that it shouldn't be mandatory that every character in the game besides maybe shaco and maybe singed requires flash or else they're at a severe disadvantage from everyone else. it's like you only get to pick one summoner- your second one. and then there's the 4 practical ones to choose from- in order, ignite, heal, teleport, and maybe barrier. I for one think it needs a rework.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Mystified,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqtBJVH6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-09-22T03:35:50.728+0000)

I think his point is that it shouldn't be mandatory that every character in the game besides maybe shaco and maybe singed requires flash or else they're at a severe disadvantage from everyone else. it's like you only get to pick one summoner- your second one. and then there's the 4 practical ones to choose from- in order, ignite, heal, teleport, and maybe barrier. I for one think it needs a rework.

correct. even your secondary summoner spell doesnt feel as optional as it used to anymore.

youll get a lot of flak for not running tp on top lane these days, even if you pick something as "mainstream" as ignite that should always be an option.

try running smite, which at least hypothetically should be an option to increase objective control for your team and youd get called a troll and put your team on tilt in champ select.

UnboundHadesSep 21, 20171 votes

Nah thats mid season 8 season 9 is gonna be the season with barely any new champs and alot of vgus

RavenhaleSep 22, 20171 votes

I wouldn't mind seeing flash replaced with that channeled ability they mentioned in the Dev Blogs. It just feels like Flash becomes an offensive tool the higher up you go when I've always thought it was meant to be a defensive tool.

JyoeruSep 22, 20171 votes

What makes you think that about flash? Depending on the champ (Annie), flash combos make/break that champion. It's a tool for either, but for some champs, the only way they get a good edge is using flash combos. I've become pretty good with a flash root/ult combo. Take that away from me, and I am half as effective as a player and champ.

RavenhaleSep 22, 20171 votes

It was my initial impression of Flash. As for your comment about Flash combos making/breaking a champion, that plays directly into what Critmaster Garen was saying. Because Flash exists, Annie gets balanced around her ability to make Flash plays.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What makes you think that about flash? Depending on the champ (Annie), flash combos make/break that champion. It's a tool for either, but for some champs, the only way they get a good edge is using flash combos. I've become pretty good with a flash root/ult combo. Take that away from me, and I am half as effective as a player and champ.

this is exactly why flash is a problem. certain champions cant be good on their own without it. and instead of summoner spells supporting your own playstile, some of them but especially flash, make or break champions.

JyoeruSep 22, 20171 votes

Maybe fair enough. But I think many champions just ended up working best that way. I don't think anything good comes from removing flash from the game. I keep trying to not use it, but I can't not use it.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Maybe fair enough. But I think many champions just ended up working best that way. I don't think anything good comes from removing flash from the game. I keep trying to not use it, but I can't not use it.

im not even talking about a straight removal.

but flash might be possible to split up into different effects depending on its uses.

for example for champions who need it strictly as an offensive engage, something along the lines of summoner 32 could work. for its defensive uses there could be an item or even a rune that gives champions a situational backwards dash.

i think while the game is way too focused around flash for many champions, there are ways to take a couple steps back and make champions work better on their own without the summoner while providing alternative playmaking tools.

its at least worth exploring.

JyoeruSep 22, 20171 votes

So what you want is a one-sided commitment in 2 parts? Instead of an escape tool that is also a harder-to-master engage tool for many champs (like Zyra or hook champs), you'd prefer a harder pure engage for one spell and a dash back for a 2nd spell? I think that'd break a lot of supports anyway. Like: choose between hard-engage dash, hop back, and exhaust.

Flash plays really are the wild card imo. Low ELO champs don't know how to use it; mid-level ELO champs start to learn; higher ELO use it for better engages (both sides can do this!); and master players use it for flashy. . . yeah accidental pun. . . plays.

I don't see flash as something that needs to be reworked. I fear doing so will cause more damage than good. It's a tool that many, many champions can use in a variety of ways, so it's not like only a handful get a solid over-the-top advantage.

I guess I have mixed feelings about it, but I will tell you, while not required, my Zyra flash E is a solid playmaker. And it's risky. And about 30% of the time I screw it up. And about 30% of the time I land it well but lose my escape and get smacked around. And the rest of the time, it's a sinister playmaker that gives me an advantage I'd be without without it.

At this point, I wouldn't want to see it changed. That surprise element it brings makes it one of the most prominent and infinitely useful summ spells in the game, imo.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So what you want is a one-sided commitment in 2 parts? Instead of an escape tool that is also a harder-to-master engage tool for many champs (like Zyra or hook champs), you'd prefer a harder pure engage for one spell and a dash back for a 2nd spell? I think that'd break a lot of supports anyway. Like: choose between hard-engage dash, hop back, and exhaust.

Flash plays really are the wild card imo. Low ELO champs don't know how to use it; mid-level ELO champs start to learn; higher ELO use it for better engages (both sides can do this!); and master players use it for flashy. . . yeah accidental pun. . . plays.

I don't see flash as something that needs to be reworked. I fear doing so will cause more damage than good. It's a tool that many, many champions can use in a variety of ways, so it's not like only a handful get a solid over-the-top advantage.

I guess I have mixed feelings about it, but I will tell you, while not required, my Zyra flash E is a solid playmaker. And it's risky. And about 30% of the time I screw it up. And about 30% of the time I land it well but lose my escape and get smacked around. And the rest of the time, it's a sinister playmaker that gives me an advantage I'd be without without it.

At this point, I wouldn't want to see it changed. That surprise element it brings makes it one of the most prominent and infinitely useful summ spells in the game, imo.

i think for those cases it would be just as possible to make a channeled blink ability with slightly larger range than flash.

imagine flash crossed with a varus q. youre slowed and move while you channel a flash that increases in range during the channel and then instantly zap to the location when you let go of the button.

the main difference is youd have to make these engage plays from positions where enemies dont have vision on you to see it coming. this would make it a good situational engage tool and a crappy escape.

this is just a general suggeston of what would be possible to do.

but overall it would at least be worth looking into alternatives to flash just as a universal offensive/defensive play making tool with nasty side effects.

part of the reason why flash is so mandatory is because an instant positioning tool is just that useful in every conceivable situation.