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Talon witih no silence, what's the point of him now? How do you counter burst ap's?

Stiler··7 votes·2,530 views

So....I just got out of a game where I picked Talon vs Leblanc without realizing that Talon no longer has silence on his E.

I did VERY poorly against LeBlanc (someone that used to give me no problem when using Talon) and my entire team proceeded to badmouth me and blame me (even when I apologized and said If I knew Talon no longer had silence I woulda picked Ryze or Galio).

So I am wondering, what is the point of Talon now besides being a poor-mans Zed (without the dmg output or mobility).

Without his silence he no longer can interrupt mages casting, so people like LB, Annie, Malz, etc can simply burst-him down with their cc and combo's, meanwhile he has no way to counter them anymore.

I'm just finding it really hard to figure out why on earth anyone would pick him over Zed now.

HE really needs some kind of anti-mage buff since he no longer has his silence.

I know people complained about counterplay with him, but now how , as Talon, do you counter burst mages?

LB still has CC, annie has her CC, you have no silence, no hard CC, nothing aside from your ult , when you commit to your combo you go all in now without any way to counter the burst mages.

40 Comments

EliteGunm4n5 votes

His silence made him the exact same problem for many other mid laners. The ability to jump on them, burst them and retreat all before a spell could be cast.

What you are complaining about is that the burst Ap mages could retaliate against you and there was nothing you could do to stop them. Now picture it from the perspective of morgana or lux when Talon jumps on them and they are unable to cast spells. They are forced to trade with Talon using auto-attacks and will obviously lose all those trades.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

{quoted}

His silence made him the exact same problem for many other mid laners. The ability to jump on them, burst them and retreat all before a spell could be cast.

What you are complaining about is that the burst Ap mages could retaliate against you and there was nothing you could do to stop them. Now picture it from the perspective of morgana or lux when Talon jumps on them and they are unable to cast spells. They are forced to trade with Talon using auto-attacks and will obviously lose all those trades.

You arent gonna retreat for free unless you have ult. Outside of that his trading triggers minion aggro and takes out his escape pre 6. He is still playable post 6 but now that bad 1-5 is just downright abysmal. I dont even attempt to trade until I see that lv 6 hit.

AtheosisX2 votes

Welcome to the world of many other champs. Not all champs are meant to trade well early.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

{quoted}

Welcome to the world of many other champs. Not all champs are meant to trade well early.

What champions do you think has a worse 1-5 than Talon? Champions that arent junglers anyway. I just want to know.

Dryditch1 votes

Malphite has a hard time against anyone with ranged harass.

Nasus can be super weak early level if you can poke him down.

Singed gets absolutely wrecked by anyone smart enough to not chase.

Epilogue of Life3 votes

Well, similarly, Talon has no counterplay against their ranged harass either. His W range is about the same, slightly larger, than the mages auto attack, while a Lux would be casting from a 1000+ range, esp. after getting chalice/blue buff. Also, pre-6, if Talon chooses to engage, he has no real way of getting out after he goes in, and after that one second of silence is gone, the mage can turn on him with all their ranged spells. Talon, after having used his E, has no other way of re-engaging to return damage, AND Talon would most likely be tanking minions. I find that when laning against someone who knows when to back out of my E range and when to allow me to E to them without me having to use flash, any engage would most likely not end in my favor. Pre-6, Talon is basically an AD Kassadin. I can't poke as well as mages, and if I all-in, mostly likely I'll lose due the to minions and the fact that my early damage is mediocre at best, even if I land everything. Talon also have no innate sustain, so if Talon and Ahri both loses 300 HP in a trade, it will almost always be more worth for the Ahri. Lastly, Talon's escape is infinitely close to zero, and his only option is to E to the incoming jungler if the jungler chooses to come up from behind him(and if that jungler is not an Udyr who can get off his stun even if silenced), so Talon really can't push past the river safely, while champions like Leblanc(another champ who lost silence) basically never dies in lane unless she fucks up big time.

forist2 votes

Morgana isn't exactly a good example. All you had to do was cast black shield as soon as Talon moved towards you to cut-throat, then just root and pool him while walking away, or root, pool, ult, and ignite for a free kill. In fact, morgana's ult can even reveal Talon if he goes into stealth to try to escape. If you were losing to talon as mid-lane morgana, you were definitely being outplayed.

EliteGunm4n2 votes

Morgana and lux were just the first champs that came to mind as low-mobility mid laners there are obviously many more that would fir the bill. My point is that silence on an assassin with a blink-like ability and cloaking is very strong. As far as using black shield to block his jump, yeah you can do that. if you want to use black shield every time he starts to walk towards you i guess though you will quickly run out of mana and be unable to do much if you need to retreat every time he makes a move forward.

The point was just that a blink+silence skill on a high-dmg assassin is pretty oppressive to a lot of low-mobility mages. Now you just gotta watch for good opportunities to trade as Talon, when their CC skills are down or a dash is already used. In the same manner that mages laning against him may need to keep their CC skills ready for him if he decides to jump on them.

AtheosisX2 votes

You also need to gasp rely on some ganks to get kills in lane like most other mid-laners. Only assassin players think they should just be able to kill their laning opponent with ease whenever they feel like it. It seems to be a condition with people who main assassins.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

{quoted}

You also need to gasp rely on some ganks to get kills in lane like most other mid-laners. Only assassin players think they should just be able to kill their laning opponent with ease whenever they feel like it. It seems to be a condition with people who main assassins.

Most mids have a good way to either harass you pre 6 or kill you with no jungle pressure. Talon is lacking in both areas unless the enemy mid makes some serious mistakes.

AtheosisX2 votes

Sorry, but that really isn't true. Very few mid-laners can secure solo kills pre-6 without their opponent fucking up, and after 6 Talon can get kills in lane just fine.

forist2 votes

It's actually very much the opposite. If you think that then you probably aren't playing your champ correctly, or maybe you are playing someone like orianna or twisted fate, who are characterized by sustained damage rather than burst and focus farming and lane pressure. These champs are atypical tho, because most midlaners are characterized by high burst and constant kill pressure.

AtheosisX2 votes

It's not the opposite. Very few mid champs can get kills without their ult in lane unless their opponent messes up. It's not even debatable. Saying that Talon is gimped because he needs his ult to get kills is just stupid. Zed needs his ult to get kills too. Yes some assassins like Fizz or Leblanc are good at killing people earlier than that, but very few mages are while assassins as a group are a mixed bag.

Let me put it another way. If you and your lane opponent are both interested in going all in pre-6 yes someone will very likely die, but if you are playing a champ you know needs to get to 6 to win in such a scenario very few champs can force things in such a way as to kill you if you are intentionally playing for your level 6 power spike. Can they zone you? Yes. Welcome to the world of the weak early game. Many champs have it and are still perfectly fine overall. Talon is in that category to a degree, though not as bad as true late game only champs.

forist1 votes

Honestly, that's just your opinion. Speaking from experience I can conclude that the majority of mid-laners are easily able to secure kills in lane. It just takes good mechanical knowledge of their damage output. Something which very many players lack, especially at lower elos (not implying that I have a higher elo btw). I can't count the number of times I've gotten first blood at lvl 3 with annie or brand or ahri or even riven.

AtheosisX1 votes

Getting first blood at level 3 pretty much always requires your lane opponent giving you that kill via misplay. That or it can result from a bad matchup. Still most solo kills don't start happening until people have their ults. The examples you give require people to basically walk into your combos with low health for them to result in kills at level 3.

I've gotten plenty of pre-6 kills in mid by the way, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking it was anything other than misplays by my opponents.

forist1 votes

If everything in this game was due to misplays, then the safest champions would always win. You can say that all of your early kill are due to a dumb opponent, but I sure as hell won't attribute the plays I make to an opponents lack of skill. Its one thing if your laner just walks right into harass range, but it's a completely different scenario when you aim and time your spells to account for his kiting or evasive maneuvers. My examples are fine, the fault is in you for failing to see the potential of these champion's early kill pressure.

Edge of Daybreak5 votes

Talon still has most of his core strengths. He just has to play match ups differently and well he is much more of a niche pick now. I dont pick talon before I see the enemy mid anymore. If it is someone skill shot reliant I will do it. I would say he needs something because he cant really do anything against the majority of the class he is supposed to counter especially if they have targetted cc

Epilogue of Life1 votes

Lol only pick Talon cuz I main him now. I honestly feel like he needs something to compensate for the silence removal, maybe the 99% slow can last an entire second? Btw check my match history to see if I'm QQing cuz I do bad on him.

1qCPjbadCo5 votes

Silence was broken, but he does need a buff to the damage % or root on his E.

AtheosisX3 votes

Talon is fine. Every time I see someone complaining about the silence being removed I just laugh. Yeah you no longer get to 100-0 people with no possible retaliation from them. Deal with it.

Stiler2 votes

Do you understand that 1-5 he can no longer trade/harass against mo st burst-mages anymore? His silence gave him counterplay vs most mages, without this now they can just laugh at him and burst him down as soon as he even attempts to E to them.

Level 1-5 it is no longer even worth it to combo anyone in your lane , just W harass them until you hit 6 and hope that people like LB/annie don't beat you to it.

No one is asking to give silence back, or allow him to have no counterplay.

However as a supposed "anti-mage" he needs something, something to help him counterplay against mages.

Meanwhile what about Zed? He can pretty much 100-0 people with his ult/combo , then cast out with his shadow with ZERO counterplay.

SouL1ess2 votes

See Stiler's post: we are dealing with it.

We are changing our playstyles from using our mobility as initiation to using our mobility as counter-initiation. There are no good options if you do something first. The viable options are only available if your enemy laner screws up.

Talon 1-5 is relegated to using Rake for harass unless the enemy laner is missing a skill (e.g. skill on CD, missed and dealt no damage to you) and you can actually win a trade by using 3 skills compared to their 2 skills used. Otherwise, jumping in as Talon is asking to lose a trade.

EffectFX2 votes

Hexdrinker

Meep Man1 votes

Well you see, you instantly kill them.

1qCPjbadCo1 votes

Play talon like playing Fizz. I primarily use E to dodge the enemy mid laner's primary damage source, then trade.

forist1 votes

Talon's silence being removed is a very dichotomous issue. On one side are the players who play him and think that the change to his playstyle was unjust, so they are just asking for a little bit of attention from riot (maybe some compensation for the nerf). On the other side are the people who don't play talon, but who get extremely annoyed by anyone suggesting he receive any type of buffs or compensations. I don't exactly understand the logic behind this side, but I would probably have to guess that they hate playing against talon (maybe were killed repeatedly by better players playing the champ), and instead of trying to play him themselves they just cried and qq'd about him until he was nerfed. Now, every time someone suggests a small buff or compensation for Talon and his lackluster kit, these players get their panties in a giant wad, and offer their amazing insight on how a champion that they don't even play is fine, when in reality he lacks the utility to compare to the other champions in his niche.

Idk... I guess that's just my take on it. I think its pretty much a futile effort to post on here, because riot won't respond anyways. All it does is spark debates that are clearly very biased and opinionated.

AtheosisX2 votes

Or maybe some of us realize he was an issue before with his silence and see him as being in a healthy spot now. Maybe some of us aren't so invested in Talon's ability to delete people with zero risk like he used to be able to do. Is Talon top tier now? No he isn't. Is Talon bad now? No, not even close. Learn and adapt. That or go play a different freelo assassin like Akali.

forist1 votes

Don't comment if you're just going to prove my point. Your sentences are literally dripping with bias, "freelo" was never a word that described this champ, and akali and talon are incomparable. Akali is a much better champ atm (but not op or freelo at all). I have no issue wrecking people with this champ post-nerf, but he is nowhere near the level of other assassin champs that most people consider to be balanced atm. Even before the cut-throat nerf, talon was considered one of the most, if not the single most, risky champs in the game. I fail to see where the safety in his play-style was. Also, don't offer insight on a champ that you don't play very much, it's ignorant at the very least.

AtheosisX1 votes

I have no issue wrecking people with this champ post-nerf

Then what's the problem?

forist1 votes

Just because I outplay someone with a worse champ, doesn't mean that champ isn't in need of buffs. Whether I can play ashe into lucian and win lane while destroying him in cs and kills has no direct bearing on ashe's current state of balance in the meta. Many different factors contribute into whether you win the game or not. This is exactly the reason why riot has never used win-rate as a sole excuse for nerfing a champion (or at least they claim they don't).

AtheosisX1 votes

Yes but no one has actually established Talon is a bad champ. In fact based on your experience of "wrecking people" and his current win rate at all levels, there just doesn't exist any proof that he needs buffs. He even sees pro play as a niche pick here and there. He is a well-balanced champ in his current form. He was not a well-balanced champ with his silence. You simply seem to be arguing for the return to overpowered status for Talon.

forist1 votes

Not "bad", under-powered. I am establishing that, but if my experience with the champion is in any way sub-par by your standards feel free to come up with your own interpretation. Its pretty easy, all you have to do is take any of the assassins in mid lane, compare their kits and ratios to talon, and then understand why he is much worse than them atm.

Also, proof is not something we use to ascertain the balance of champion, feedback is what we use. He is not currently being used competitively, and when he was being used, it was before the nerf (with also very lackluster results to boot).

This is the same old, tired argument everyone's been using. You're arguing that for the past 2 years he's been unbalanced, yet for some reason there wasn't any qq about him until recently. That's logic these boards could do without.

Finally, this thread was never about giving talon his silence back, its about compensation for the nerfs that killed his utility. You seem to think that any kind of buff would absolutely break this champion, and that's just unreasonable on so many different levels.

AtheosisX1 votes

That's the issue though. You think Talon should be on par with the assassins that are overpowered. I'm saying he's where assassins should be: powerful but not cheap or lacking counterplay like Zed, Akali, or Fizz.

forist1 votes

This is either a difference in skill level or opinion. I, like many other players, consider zed to be the epitome of a balanced champ. If we disagree on that then there is no way I can possibly entertain any of your opinions regarding balance.

AtheosisX1 votes

Sorry but when mages are on equal footing with the OP assassins like Zed, Fizz, or Akali then I'll agree with you. Right now though most non-assassin mid-laners have been crowded out by your supposedly balanced champs.

forist2 votes

That's why they are different roles. Mages contribute way more to team fights, because of their low cooldowns and hard cc's. They shouldn't be able to beat an assassin 1v1, because an assassin's sole purpose is to kill a single target. Just because you can't win your lane, doesn't mean you can't contribute to a team game in other ways.

Leblancs Boob1 votes

I mean to be fair its unfair to compare Talon to Zed since Zed is probably the strongest champion in the game. Talon is much noticably weaker in lane but hes still able to do what he does best mid to late game, easily able to instakill any squishy he sees. He could use a buff to his earlygame, but his silence was just unhealthy as it prevented any of his targets from fighting back. It was like "Oh look a Talon's on my screen.. no point in running or juking I'm dead either way." His E should have gotten more compensation for the loss though

forist1 votes

Most people compare zed to talon, because they have the exact same niche and are both attack damage based. Why should champions who have the same role and build similar items have such a blatant gap in strength? It doesn't make any sense from a balancing standpoint, because one champ will just be used in every situation the other champ can be used in. Zed can accomplish the same things, but even better, while doing more.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

burst them down faster than they can burst you?

youngjake931 votes

Maybe you did poorly because you haven't played Talon since the nerf 400 years ago and the other person probably has played Leblanc more than once in the last 400 years.

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