Support roles still need serious balance/quality of life changes.

Stiler·Dec 26, 2014·15 votes·2,524 views

A while back Riot looked into helping supports out to help that role, but it still has some issues that just make supports drag behind their team.

Supports almost always are one to two levels behind the rest of their teams. While they go off warding and things this seriously can drain on their leveling exp in early/mid game.
Gold gold gold, even with the gold items supports tend to be behind as far as other players in their roles.

There are a few ways I can think of to help address this:

How about you give supports exp for warding through via sightstone? So that each time they place a ward they get a slight exp boost or such? Something to keep them in line with the adc lane partner at least. Limit it to one-per team (similar to the jungle items) so supports can use it without it being an item that would be used by everyone for the exp boost.
Supports almost always have more assists then anyone else on their teams. Why not tweak this to give either more exp or more gold rewards?

Just a few thoughts.

Gold gold gold, even with the newer gold items supports

47 Comments

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 201410 votes

One of the current problems supports have is all three support items ability to generate gold is significantly reduced outside of the laning phase.

StilerDec 26, 20146 votes

Yes that brings up another good point. When it comes to especially Spellthief and Relic Shield.

I am still amazed that to this day, even in Gold tier, sooooo many people see supports with the "blue orbs" and they don't let the support get the hit on a creep that the support obviously is trying to. Everytime I see a team doing that it drives me insane.

All they are doing is denying their support gold and hurting their own teammate but they don't seem to care.

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 20144 votes

{quoted}

Yes that brings up another good point. When it comes to especially Spellthief and Relic Shield.

I am still amazed that to this day, even in Gold tier, sooooo many people see supports with the "blue orbs" and they don't let the support get the hit on a creep that the support obviously is trying to. Everytime I see a team doing that it drives me insane.

All they are doing is denying their support gold and hurting their own teammate but they don't seem to care.

All three finished items really need to be changed somehow to bring in gold late game. Especially Face of the Mountain. I've played games before where I executed less than 10 minions outside of the laning phase because no one would let me kill them. Even the mid-lane mage with low health that would have healed from FotM.

I have noticed a significant drop in late game gold thanks to the changes made to Dragon. Those bonus stats are nice and all, but they do little to help me as Nami or Janna.

RaptameiDec 26, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Yes that brings up another good point. When it comes to especially Spellthief and Relic Shield.

I am still amazed that to this day, even in Gold tier, sooooo many people see supports with the "blue orbs" and they don't let the support get the hit on a creep that the support obviously is trying to. Everytime I see a team doing that it drives me insane.

All they are doing is denying their support gold and hurting their own teammate but they don't seem to care.

I've been reported for trying to last hit anyway.

KingsgraveDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Yes that brings up another good point. When it comes to especially Spellthief and Relic Shield.

I am still amazed that to this day, even in Gold tier, sooooo many people see supports with the "blue orbs" and they don't let the support get the hit on a creep that the support obviously is trying to. Everytime I see a team doing that it drives me insane.

All they are doing is denying their support gold and hurting their own teammate but they don't seem to care.

Them killing the wave with that item takes away too fucking long and most of the time you want to get rid of the wave as fast as possible.

RatbertDec 26, 20149 votes

Giving supports more gold isn't always a good thing. Pretty sure the support role is defined by their lack of gold reliance while still being useful. Throwing more gold just puts more mages and carries bot. Did we forget how many mages suddenly became popular bot picks because of the item rework and how it warped both the solo queue and competitive scene?

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 20146 votes

{quoted}

Giving supports more gold isn't always a good thing. Pretty sure the support role is defined by their lack of gold reliance while still being useful. Throwing more gold just puts more mages and carries bot. Did we forget how many mages suddenly became popular bot picks because of the item rework and how it warped both the solo queue and competitive scene?

Riot took a lot of blame for mages coming bottom thanks to the support rework that supposedly gutted supports and gave more gold. But in reality, much of it was the community's own stupidity in thinking only mages (plus Leona and Thresh) were viable. Everyone complained about how terrible the supports were, especially Janna (I got reported simply for playing Janna mid-season.) Next thing we know Soraka and Lulu are permabanned because of their mid/top laning abilities. By the end of the season Nami and Janna soar into the double digit pick-rate and are deemed the 2 strongest supports.

Looking back relatively few mages truly came bottom. And basically only Morgana remains thanks to her spell shield and strong CC (and Riot's unwillingness to do anything about it). Zilean sees some some play here and there but he has always been active in bottom and he is likely to be reworked in 2015. It seems unlikely a change in gold alone will trigger anyone else coming bottom.

RatbertDec 26, 20141 votes

Only a few mages stayed behind because of how bad the ap support item is in comparison. I'm also pretty sure that since janna crushed leo, janna was still played fairly frequently.

L7xLoTekDec 26, 20141 votes

Don't forget about Annie, but yeah, support has been somewhat less fun as of late.

manbearswineDec 26, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Giving supports more gold isn't always a good thing. Pretty sure the support role is defined by their lack of gold reliance while still being useful. Throwing more gold just puts more mages and carries bot. Did we forget how many mages suddenly became popular bot picks because of the item rework and how it warped both the solo queue and competitive scene?

good?

As a long time support main,I find the gameplay of most support(fuck you thresh you brain damaged piece of garbage) to be really stupid and faceroll,would be happy if squishy mages who actually need positioning and can be punished for mistakes would be more popular,if they shove out thresh,even better.

fuck you thresh you broken piece of shit.

LstrikeDec 26, 20142 votes

I agree. There are a lot of low risk high reward supports that are seeing competitive and high elo play. At low elo, it doesnt really matter. you can play pretty much anyone as support.

A support like thresh doesnt really have a weakness. Only weakness I see is no sustain so poke supports can get the better of him. But they cant really poke him out of lane because he has a strong disengage from his e and ult.

FadedpfDec 26, 20144 votes

I like the Idea of having 1 sightstone per team. No more broken ass leesin ward hopping unless you gave him the sightstone which would be dumb. Support and jungle are the hardest roles. They take knowledge and skill to play them right. Everyone should buy a ward every once and a while at least a pink. Supports need to know how to ward, ingage, protect. Yet you always see someone getting carried by their support or a good support getting blamed from a horrid adc

MartyrofsandDec 26, 20143 votes

The only changes the support roles needs is for riot to reverse the support changes they made in S3 and unnerf support base values and remove the utility scaling garbage. Then supports and supporting will be good again.

ImHerVoiceDec 26, 20142 votes

you make more gold than junglers.

Knight DevoutDec 26, 20141 votes

you make more gold than bad junglers.

FTFY

Brenticus12Dec 27, 20141 votes

Nah, nowadays junglers have the least amount of gold income unless they've been farming both jungles he entire early and mid game.

Knight DevoutDec 27, 20141 votes

if the jungler has zero support and assists, maybe, otherwise they handle just fine.

Brenticus12Dec 27, 20141 votes

Not at all. Ganking means less farm. Ganks are also more risky. As a jungler it's best to just snowball the lane so they can carry you or pick a snowbally champ like Kha Zix or Rango and steal kills. Clearing is harder not only because camps do more damage but also because respawn times are longer. Most games, if you check, even when the jungler does fine or above average, he has the least or second least gold income.

Knight DevoutDec 27, 20141 votes

I know it's unpopular but if the jungle had a gold income equal to laners, it wouldn't be played as it's played now. Hypercarries in the jungle, laners would help them against early game junglers, and at 20 minute you would face a master Yi with three finished items (which is something we don't want to see).

Plus, junglers have jungle items and enchantments, which are good stats offered at quite a cheap price, while supports have to buy sightstone that, while effective, doesn't provide anything meaningful in combat.

AccountaBilabudyDec 26, 20142 votes

Leona with a item 3401 item 3068 item 3078 can and will destroy ADCs

Linna ExcelDec 27, 20141 votes

If she doesn't get shut down early and is left unable to get those items...

AtheosisXDec 26, 20141 votes

I'm all for tweaking gold distribution to give more on assists and little less on killing blows. It really is pretty dumb the way a guy can not even do that much damage in a fight but get the lion's share of the gold for doing the damage that finishes someone.

flibitydooDec 26, 20141 votes

Supports don't really need gold or exp to contribute though. That's how the meta was formed (ADC and support go duo bot lane because both are level independent so they can split exp and ADC is gold dependant while the support is gold independent, so the ADC get's the last hits). The only thing supports really need is a sightstone and that's about it in terms of core item build.

You don't need the extra ap, hp or regen to contribute to the teamfight. Those are nice, but you aren't expected to be dealing damage on a support budget. If the enemy escapes with 5 hp then it's the ADC's fault for being bad at the game and not last hitting enough creeps to get that extra 5 AD. You aren't expected to tank their whole team on a support budget. You're expected to make big plays with your abilities by using them in clutch situations to protect your teammates.

Sara LeahDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

A while back Riot looked into helping supports out to help that role, but it still has some issues that just make supports drag behind their team.

Supports almost always are one to two levels behind the rest of their teams. While they go off warding and things this seriously can drain on their leveling exp in early/mid game.

Gold gold gold, even with the gold items supports tend to be behind as far as other players in their roles.

There are a few ways I can think of to help address this:

How about you give supports exp for warding through via sightstone? So that each time they place a ward they get a slight exp boost or such? Something to keep them in line with the adc lane partner at least. Limit it to one-per team (similar to the jungle items) so supports can use it without it being an item that would be used by everyone for the exp boost.

Supports almost always have more assists then anyone else on their teams. Why not tweak this to give either more exp or more gold rewards?

Just a few thoughts.

Gold gold gold, even with the newer gold items supports

1.) gold I have np with.. usually gaining plenty for my needs IF my adc knows how to last hit minions rather then ignoring them to champ chase and I achieve this by only using gold coin. I do not use the tank supports -leona, thresh, blitz etc. - i only squishies - soraka, nami, janna etc. - with nami my new usual since sorakas reskill.. I prefer her old skill set.

2.) being 2 levels lower is annoying but is usually not a problem UNLESS I get a team that has no initiater and end up having to kamakazie to get the fight started.

3.) .. I see no problems with gold.. with proper support runes and masteries equipped.. a mastery box deep in the support area that gives more than 10 xp every ten seconds may help resolve this... maybe ten every 2 - 5 seconds to help close the gap.

Done25Dec 26, 20141 votes

Things are better than they were a few seasons back. It wasn't unusual to see a level 12~14 Alistar at 40 min in with nothing more than boots of mobility, heart of gold, and a lot of wards.

The problem is that people think that supports shouldn't scale off of gold. ("Don't need" is just another way of saying "can't")

So what's the difference if Janna a death cap? The gold would have been a far better investment into giving Vayne a Phantom Dancer. If a champion has a kit that is gold indidedent this causes two things.

Can't shut them down because they have everything they need.
They have no late game fantasy. You can't have them be good with no gold, AND better with it. There would simply he no downside. So Nami ends up being no stronger at level 18 than she was at level 6. If anything she would be weaker as her level of use deteriorates over time. (Such as her inability to wave clear, as the minions grow stronger faster than she does.)

Linna ExcelDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted} So what's the difference if Janna a death cap?

Janna's offensive scalings are crap and a deathcap isn't really that great on her. I know because I've tried building it on her in ARAM. Zhonya's is much better on her.

Done25Dec 26, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G5Omu1g0,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2014-12-26T06:24:18.620+0000)

Janna's offensive scalings are crap and a deathcap isn't really that great on her. I know because I've tried building it on her in ARAM. Zhonya's is much better on her.

That's the point I was making. Their offensive/utility scaling is often so low that it's more gold efficient to simply go pure tank with items like frozen heart. (See ye old "tank Soraka".)

Linna ExcelDec 26, 20141 votes

You can probably go void staff on her just to make the base damage a little more appealing. Maybe abyssal scepter or liandry's. I don't think you have to go full tank with her, but you want to stick to tanky AP stuff if you are going AP. Her kit is a bit weird in that her CC is more for peeling than locking down a target so she's not quite what you'd want out of a tanky CC champ. The only thing that really benefits from AP in her kit is her shield.

I guess she wants to be a linebacker so focus %cdr and mana first so you can spam defensive skills.

Linna ExcelDec 26, 20141 votes

I'd use SODA's gold for minions system for gold gen and get rid of the gold items, runes, and masteries. In Sins of A Dark age, creeps have a second GP that is split among champs that damage but don't kill the creep. So if the support tags the wave, that'd be like getting 50 CS at 10 minutes.

MattAkhavanDec 26, 20141 votes

I don't think this is really a big problem. You have enough gold to stay relevant the whole game for the most part. Being a few levels down is because you are choosing to ward instead of gaining xp, and you can always get the utility mastery that gives you more xp. Besides, sacrificing xp to other laners and leaching more xp from higher level minions and utility is super efficient.

Personally i think supports are in a really good place right now.

MrSlowDieDec 26, 20141 votes

gold is fine with me, well at least for me, I remember a high elo support stream that keep buying green wards even though already bought SS. Because everyone has red trinket with them >,>

PokladnicaZlaDec 26, 20141 votes

What I would like to see is better gold flow.Some of you alredy mentioned that supports dont alot of gold outside that laning phase.

Also FotM GpS.For a few reasons: 1.Tanky supps dont earn alot of gold.

2.The sustain in lane can get annoying. Supp:Most go very deep in the defensive tree(high HPreg),get pots and also have FotM stacks to heal them selfs. ADC:Life steal,pots and FotM stacks. Sometimes that sustain gets really out of hand.

Maybe addingGpS and reducing the stacks amount by 1 in every build stage,but make it gice extra gold in return. This is just my opinion... P.S Sry for any grammar errors,wrote this on my phone.

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

What I would like to see is better gold flow.Some of you alredy mentioned that supports dont alot of gold outside that laning phase.

Also FotM GpS.For a few reasons: 1.Tanky supps dont earn alot of gold.

2.The sustain in lane can get annoying. Supp:Most go very deep in the defensive tree(high HPreg),get pots and also have FotM stacks to heal them selfs. ADC:Life steal,pots and FotM stacks. Sometimes that sustain gets really out of hand.

Maybe addingGpS and reducing the stacks amount by 1 in every build stage,but make it gice extra gold in return. This is just my opinion... P.S Sry for any grammar errors,wrote this on my phone.

You do have a point. The sustain in bottom lane is a problem. But I wouldn't say sustain itself is a problem; rather, the problem is that it is too easily accessible. We have health pots, LS Quints, LS items, FotM, Heal (summoner spell), Feast (mastery), Defensive masteries, and actual healing abilities.

It is to the point where sustain is so easy to get that we don't even realize how much we have and how much we rely on it. Actual healing supports don't even have that much of an impact anymore, with the exception of Soraka. Something does need to be done about this. But what no one seems to know.

HotdogsDec 26, 20141 votes

no need to add extra mechanics for new players to learn, just decrease exp from minions and increase global exp, or adjust the stats per level curve. 1 per team restriction of anything is probably going cause alot of abuse cases.
assists got nerfed a while back from 70% to 50%. gold gain items also got nerfed.

Lean into itDec 26, 20141 votes

giving supports even more gold = melees become even more uncommon than they already are

supports already get too much gold, with added benefits like an extra slow or shield from their gold generation items, on top of all their inherent utility

if you give them any more gold, not only do you have to get through all the CC to kill their ADC, survive getting crit for 1k damage every other auto attack, you would also have to deal with a pseudo AP carry (depending on champion)

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

giving supports even more gold = melees become even more uncommon than they already are

supports already get too much gold, with added benefits like an extra slow or shield from their gold generation items, on top of all their inherent utility

if you give them any more gold, not only do you have to get through all the CC to kill their ADC, survive getting crit for 1k damage every other auto attack, you would also have to deal with a pseudo AP carry (depending on champion)

I would say getting hit for 1k crit damage is a far bigger problem than a Nami with a little extra gold.

LankPantsDec 26, 20141 votes

How about you give supports exp for warding through via sightstone? So that each time they place a ward they get a slight exp boost or such? Something to keep them in line with the adc lane partner at least. Limit it to one-per team (similar to the jungle items) so supports can use it without it being an item that would be used by everyone for the exp boost.

LeeSin likes this change, he won't be scared to just pick up SS and force his sup to buy a ton of wards, whilst generating free EXP every time he bullshits around the map.

CoolKnightSTDec 26, 20141 votes

What if whe give the sightstone an unique passive that gives bonus xp on assists. This way when your support is doing well he can get that level easyer. It should be logical a support get's bonus exp for giving his carry the last hit.

AccountaBilabudyDec 26, 20141 votes

actually i feel like supporting is far and away the best its ever been. many champions are viable there (nautilus, gangplank, syndra) and the gold income is decent enough.

However, i do agree that exp is a problem. i suggest that item 2049 should have a passive on it that grants bonus exp.

Penguin EclipseDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

actually i feel like supporting is far and away the best its ever been. many champions are viable there (nautilus, gangplank, syndra) and the gold income is decent enough.

However, i do agree that exp is a problem. i suggest that should have a passive on it that grants bonus exp.

The problem with that idea is that the Sightstone would have to be locked to the support role somehow. Like requiring a support gold item to buy. Otherwise non supports could abuse the item.

Knight DevoutDec 26, 20141 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/e0es139R-increasing-mastery-and-strategy-for-the-support-role-more-options-for-items-and-sightstone

Discussing possible solutions in the linked post.

mikemil223Dec 26, 20141 votes

anyone ever notice that besides a few supps.(braum janna) if you build them dmg they are stronger than the dmg champs because their skills have high base dmg?or if they build tanky (ex:leona) can take on champs like adc's alone no problem. for me i go triforce and just ubild tank and if i land my e, i can dive adc's while they are at full hp with my ult and ignite and they will die no problem. or if im sona i can build dfg sheen then go tanky and dfg ult q auto and the squishy champ will die. thats kinda dumb (especially considering sona's ult range). but mainly any support besides the two i pointed out at the top (and even them i just havnt found a good build for them yet) can build dmg and do more dmg than a lot of dmg champs which makes no sense

AwakezzzDec 26, 20141 votes

Back in my day, you got a sightstone and boots and you liked it.

No but seriously, as a support main since S3 we have more gold and item options now than we have ever had before. We get enough to have an impact and get relatively tanky, or do some decent dmg, ect considering we spend so much gold on utility and wards as well as no cs. That's just part of the job. Being able to work with not very much gold is part of being a efficient support player. You shouldn't be item comparable to solo laners or others who actually had to farm for them. At no point should a support be able to 1v1 a mid laner or top laner, ect unless they are realllly fed.

It's actually not uncommon for me now to not have enough space to carry pinks, so I have to sacrifice getting a builder item to leave a slot open.

I honestly think the support role is overwhelmingly in a good place right now.

Linna ExcelDec 27, 20141 votes

Old timers and their tales of S3. :P

If you are short on space grab a sightstone and upgrade your ward trinket so it drops pinks. Leave the red trinket to other classes.

Brenticus12Dec 27, 20141 votes

I tend to take red trinket as supp cause no one else seems to remember..

RisurinDec 26, 20141 votes

{quoted}

A while back Riot looked into helping supports out to help that role, but it still has some issues that just make supports drag behind their team.

Supports almost always are one to two levels behind the rest of their teams. While they go off warding and things this seriously can drain on their leveling exp in early/mid game.

Gold gold gold, even with the gold items supports tend to be behind as far as other players in their roles.

There are a few ways I can think of to help address this:

How about you give supports exp for warding through via sightstone? So that each time they place a ward they get a slight exp boost or such? Something to keep them in line with the adc lane partner at least. Limit it to one-per team (similar to the jungle items) so supports can use it without it being an item that would be used by everyone for the exp boost.

Supports almost always have more assists then anyone else on their teams. Why not tweak this to give either more exp or more gold rewards?

Just a few thoughts.

Gold gold gold, even with the newer gold items supports

problem with 1 is ward spamming at fountain for free exp since they refresh there, unless they put a CD on sightstone, which in the end feels more like a sightstone nerf then a bonus for support.

problem with 2 is that boosting assist gold means a huge buffs for champions like jarvan, that need nothing but toss their flag around the area to receive free income. you get a locket and you can get almost all the assists of the world without having to press anything.

BresnDec 27, 20141 votes

According to ancient threads, there didn't used to be supports bot so perhaps the Meta could translate into something like Bruiser Top and ADC/Tank bot. But of course you need to encourage people to do it and not see it as a support Garen pick.