Why Nocturne is an example of how League of Legends assassins should be designed.

Stacona··3 votes·2,728 views

This is not at all about Nocturne's current game balance, too strong or too weak, does not matter.

What this is about is how Nocturne is unique and does more than just damage, he has ways to always be useful for his team no matter what. If Nocturne is fed, then he is a great and effective assassin. If Nocturne is not fed or behind, at least he has utility effects like his global darkness and fear to be useful that way, so Nocturne is never useless at any point.

Now look at literally every single assassin in the game. They are all about their damage and nothing but their damage. They have no uniqueness to them, they are just reskins of the same thing and some are ability power and others are attack damage, still all the same thing, with no utility to help them be useful for their team if not insanely snowballed. There are other exceptions as well, very few, like Ekko where he has stuns and slows allowing him to be useful even when behind.

This is what an assassin rework should accomplish, is giving assassins something unique about them that helps their team in some way and not just be about damage. This does not need to be crowd control, like what Nocturne and Ekko have, it could be other utility like shields, heals, vision, walls, zone and/or map control, etc. Could also have things where one can literally cut a team in half so this group of champions are over here and the others are over there. You should get the point, having an assassin that is useful for the team no matter what is better than the multitude of reskinned assassins all about their damage and when behind are the most useless things and you were better off to pick a marksman instead or a mage.

P.S. Nocturne mid is pretty fun and his roams are very strong, gets more gold to feel out that assassin fantasy a lot better, restrictive to when you can play this as he is a melee champion still so varies based on who your opponent is if you should pick him or not, but his wave clear and health sustain is very strong. Just a little side note.


By the way, when an assassin has other things useful about them then their damage does not need to be so high and offer more counter play against them - in non-fed scenarios.

14 Comments

Poske3 votes

This is extremly off

You should see some consistent challenger nocturne gameplay

One shots with point and click from 4000k range, and there is not much you can do realisticly He does bring unique aspect in darkness but that doesnt justify the bullsHOOT the nocturne is

This is how assassin current state is

Ekko - Sometimes good lategame threat, till then he just shoves Ahri - Completly ruined by latest changes. (Got aroun 200 game on ahri extremly bad horrible changes) Leblanc - Completly ruined by latest changes (Source me 4000k games on Le blanc, had #1 lb world status) Katarina - Aoe Assassin Rengar - Fast kill speed assassin who is extremly difficult to one shot Khazix - Curently the best assassin. Infact ussualy the best assassin Evelynn - the most iritating assassin in a game. Stealth into cc into death into escape WATAFAK? Twitch - The actual most iritating assassin in a game. (Twitch who farms both jungle and toplane) Shaco - Randomly gets OP every once in a while. Not sure where he curently lies might be just worse kha atm Kassadin - Anti mage lategame assassin which is borderline extremly hard to bully in majority of matchups Fizz - Mightaswell pick ekko till the tables turn Nocturne - Whenever he becomes assassin he is toxic (healthy as a bruiser with current kit). Curently he is assassin

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

This is extremly off

You should see some consistent challenger nocturne gameplay

One shots with point and click from 4000k range, and there is not much you can do realisticly He does bring unique aspect in darkness but that doesnt justify the bullsHOOT the nocturne is

This is how assassin current state is

Ekko - Sometimes good lategame threat, till then he just shoves Ahri - Completly ruined by latest changes. (Got aroun 200 game on ahri extremly bad horrible changes) Leblanc - Completly ruined by latest changes (Source me 4000k games on Le blanc, had #1 lb world status) Katarina - Aoe Assassin Rengar - Fast kill speed assassin who is extremly difficult to one shot Khazix - Curently the best assassin. Infact ussualy the best assassin Evelynn - the most iritating assassin in a game. Stealth into cc into death into escape WATAFAK? Twitch - The actual most iritating assassin in a game. (Twitch who farms both jungle and toplane) Shaco - Randomly gets OP every once in a while. Not sure where he curently lies might be just worse kha atm Kassadin - Anti mage lategame assassin which is borderline extremly hard to bully in majority of matchups Fizz - Mightaswell pick ekko till the tables turn Nocturne - Whenever he becomes assassin he is toxic (healthy as a bruiser with current kit)

Wow. I just need a second to take this in...Ok I'm good.

Lets start at the top. Nocturne indeed can 1 shot, like any diving in assassin,as long as the person is behind, low or generally squishy. However he also lacks escape (unless you take phaserush like me), gives you a nice heads up that he's coming to get you and you need to get under tower.

Ekko - is an assassin with great waveclear, burst damage that gives him kill pressure level 2, a large Aoe stun and shield in one and an extra life. If you're not pushing lanes, getting kills and roaming then you're playing him wrong.

Ahri and lb - just don't speak about then again. They both just got a massive buff, if you can work out to hit charm on ahri or combo q on lb you don't get a say.

And yes, Nocturne is better as either a crit aa assassin or a triforce/steraks bruiser (still get 1 shot potential with triforce, just more expensive).

Poske2 votes

Look I am midlane assassin main who got challenger multiple times. I think I know a lot more about fking champion viability then you

Nocturne is currently pick or ban in high challenger. Whenever nocturne is considered assasssin he is not healthy. I dont know what else to say

Ekko is unrealiable champion in every single aspect apart from pushing waves relativly fast for assassin and being decent in lategame as assassin against certain teamcomps. Not a single ekko should be winnin 1vs1 vs good midlaners, he counters syndra for example but he rarely counters something. Push power implies roaming. BBBBUT EKKO HAS AOE STUN yes maybe in your elo he does

Le blanc literaly dropped from higher skillcap and 52% winrate to 45% winrate. As an EX best Le blanc world i have to say you are just outright wrong. Not to mention that this changes were so cancerous that not a single person in my le blanc club approved this not actually "partial "revert

Ahri change is extremly backwards adn forces her to use E always first which is aids in itself. I played ahri and she seems worse

Nocturne is played as duskblade lethality 0.2 second one shoter from 3k range while none can see. Towers dont help nothing helps except being grouped and try being grouped 24/7 against another 4 challenger players

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Look I am midlane assassin main who got challenger multiple times. I think I know a lot more about fking champion viability then you

Nocturne is currently pick or ban in high challenger. Whenever nocturne is considered assasssin he is not healthy. I dont know what else to say

Ekko is unrealiable champion in every single aspect apart from pushing waves relativly fast for assassin and being decent in lategame as assassin against certain teamcomps. Not a single ekko should be winnin 1vs1 vs good midlaners, he counters syndra for example but he rarely counters something. Push power implies roaming. BBBBUT EKKO HAS AOE STUN yes maybe in your elo he does

Le blanc literaly dropped from higher skillcap and 52% winrate to 45% winrate. As an EX best Le blanc world i have to say you are just outright wrong. Not to mention that this changes were so cancerous that not a single person in my le blanc club approved this not actually "partial "revert

Ahri change is extremly backwards adn forces her to use E always first which is aids in itself. I played ahri and she seems worse

Nocturne is played as duskblade lethality 0.2 second one shoter from 3k range while none can see. Towers dont help nothing helps except being grouped and try being grouped 24/7 against another 4 challenger players

If we're throwing rank into it at least be honest. You've been diamond since s3 (which is still very impressive) and are currently master teir. You have a +50% winrate on kat and lb and a few that you've been auto filled to/tried out once or twice. You have yet to play a nocturne game this season despite you being an expert on him.

I'm silver (not very impressive), barely play ranked and have played nocturne since I started last season (he was my first champion). I have only played him a few times in ranked but have a 60% winrate on him.

Now that that's out of the way, lb has a terrible winrate because she has just been released and people are rusty/learning her.

Ahri isn't completely reliant on her e, it just allows her to 100-0 people which is nice.

Ekko isn't massively strong against all midlaners beyond his farm, but he can hold his own against those that have the advantage and his roams, tower dives and zoning/cc and burst is all good. He even saw a bit of pro play last split and didn't do too badly in the right hands/team comp.

Duskblade and warriors on nocturne is a great way to win early, lose late. Yes duskblade is strong on him (everyone knows that) but to 1 shot you under tower from 100-0 requires a lot more than a duskblade and jg item. The runes have to be for 1 shot, and that will hurt him bad late. Also it means when/if he gets the kill, he's dead because he has no way out. 1 for 1 isn't really that worth when the enemy jg gets to invade for free.

Just the opinions of a silver player I know, but one who at least plays the champion in question.

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=epr6c4R4,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T14:51:55.021+0000)

If we're throwing rank into it at least be honest. You've been diamond since s3 (which is still very impressive) and are currently master teir. You have a +50% winrate on kat and lb and a few that you've been auto filled to/tried out once or twice. You have yet to play a nocturne game this season despite you being an expert on him.

I have been challenger 4 times. I peeked 450 lp last season. I dont even know what I peeked this season but I estimate it around 550. The other seasons I peeked diamond1 75 LP and you would gain 3 LP back then, keep in mind master tier didnt exist back then. Not to mention this account only dates to season 3. And I have been playing this game since early season 1

I have consistent 60% winrate on Le blanc and katarina across seasons. I guess my le blanc dropped a bit in winrate since I lost 450 lp recently

More important then not I Was the best Le blanc globaly by far on every single site statistic 12 months ago. And I have consistently been top 10 on and off

I was consistently top 10 kata to. So yeah

Now that that's out of the way, lb has a terrible winrate because she has just been released and people are rusty/learning her.

Yes People are rusty. Infact I am still used to current playstyle. you gotta keep in mind however that Le blanc had steady 47% winrate before rework. This is a revert with around 5 nerfs handed to her. I expect her winrate to drop further. Infact If I see her as a hype troll pick atm

Also I personaly dont care about her winrate. I mained her when she was considered trash at 45% winrate. However I am dissapointed in Riot on how they fully reverted her.

I'm silver (not very impressive), barely play ranked and have played nocturne since I started last season (he was my first champion). I have only played him a few times in ranked but have a 60% winrate on him.

I have around 10 - 20 games on nocturne since season 1. But I have experience in playing against high elo nocturnes

Ahri isn't completely reliant on her e, it just allows her to 100-0 people which is nice.

Yes dont throw E first and minimize your dps. It forces her to always use E first pattern. It was already tested it failed now they are redoing it wtf?

Ekko isn't massively strong against all midlaners beyond his farm, but he can hold his own against those that have the advantage and his roams, tower dives and zoning/cc and burst is all good. He even saw a bit of pro play last split and didn't do too badly in the right hands/team comp.

Farm is extremly debatable on ekko. Ekko can push but I am sure any ekko player knows that getting all 6 creeps with melee champ who puts minions at 1 hp to die from other minions is .. eh tricky. Protobelt is rushed for a reason..

Sure his Roam and zoning can be decent but all of his abilities except E are really unreliable

Q on the way forward can be slowed down by a minion wave Q on the way backwards get dodged by going backwards 99% of times W can be walked out of even when used from Fog E is reliable R is also unrealiable for obvious reasons... he often dies before he uses it / rarely it does much offensivly Passive is unreliable due to q being unreliable

This is why I described ekko as I did

Duskblade and warriors on nocturne is a great way to win early, lose late. Yes duskblade is strong on him (everyone knows that) but to 1 shot you under tower from 100-0 requires a lot more than a duskblade and jg item. The runes have to be for 1 shot, and that will hurt him bad late. Also it means when/if he gets the kill, he's dead because he has no way out. 1 for 1 isn't really that worth when the enemy jg gets to invade for free.

Idk mate best nocturnes just aerial one shot me / my teammates. He doesnt have to be 10.0 for that. 2.0 is enough. Why would his target also be under tower

Mig891 votes

This argument aside. How can you be the best leblanc globally when faker is still alive? By best did you mean most games played?

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

This argument aside. How can you be the best leblanc globally when faker is still alive? By best did you mean most games played?

This always sounds cocky but faker is actually bad at le blanc. And statisticly I had #1 Le blanc spot, I probably have more games to given that I am le blanc player since season 1 and he started playing league at season 3 or so

Faker is fantastic midlaner dont get me wrong but his le blanc is full of missplays incorrect way of playing and building. I could coach him le blanc to put it in perspective.

Yes Cocky as fak I know.. its reallity however none does what I do with Le blanc to an extent I do it reggardless of Le blanc iteration

Faker is not even the best lcs le blanc player

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

I have been challenger 4 times. I peeked 450 lp last season. I dont even know what I peeked this season but I estimate it around 550. The other seasons I peeked diamond1 75 LP and you would gain 3 LP back then, keep in mind master tier didnt exist back then. Not to mention this account only dates to season 3. And I have been playing this game since early season 1

http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=poske

I must be looking at this wrong then.

I have consistent 60% winrate on Le blanc and katarina across seasons. I guess my le blanc dropped a bit in winrate since I lost 450 lp recently

More important then not I Was the best Le blanc globaly by far on every single site statistic 12 months ago. And I have consistently been top 10 on and off

I was consistently top 10 kata to. So yeah

Grats?

Yes People are rusty. Infact I am still used to current playstyle. you gotta keep in mind however that Le blanc had steady 47% winrate before rework. This is a revert with around 5 nerfs handed to her. I expect her winrate to drop further. Infact If I see her as a hype troll pick atm

Also I personaly dont care about her winrate. I mained her when she was considered trash at 45% winrate. However I am dissapointed in Riot on how they fully reverted her.

A niche assassin with high snowball potential and a very feast or famine kit has a low winrate? The low elo's making mistakes constantly and getting punished couldn't have anything to do with that, after-all they only make up 90% of the community.

I have around 10 - 20 games on nocturne since season 1. But I have experience in playing against high elo nocturnes

That's like people complaining that malz is still broken after 5 nerfs because "he ulted me during a gank and I died!!!!! >=O"

Yes dont throw E first and minimize your dps. It forces her to always use E first pattern. It was already tested it failed now they are redoing it wtf?

Of course you want to hit your e, but the point is she has a long range poke that does good damage and clears waves while also giving her sustain. She also has an ult that allows her to reposition, a w that hits the priority target, and an e that is essentially a skill shot version of a slightly shorter malz ult with a longer range that buffs everything she throws out.

Farm is extremly debatable on ekko. Ekko can push but I am sure any ekko player knows that getting all 6 creeps with melee champ who puts minions at 1 hp to die from other minions is .. eh tricky. Protobelt is rushed for a reason..

omg, a melee champion who actually has to HIT the minions once for them to die?!?!?!? You're right, RIOT this needs to be fixed!!!! Also protobelt is good on ekko because it gives him a dash, extra burst, hp, cdr, ap, and when joined with his e means he can explode it in your face.

Sure his Roam and zoning can be decent but all of his abilities except E are really unreliable

his 1 point a click ability is his most reliable? REALLY?

Q on the way forward can be slowed down by a minion wave Q on the way backwards get dodged by going backwards 99% of times

This is true, which is why ekko mains tend to e THEN q as it's almost guaranteed to hit on the way back

W can be walked out of even when used from Fog

Which means he only gets a shield when he jumps into it? No but seriously I have heard this is the hardest piece of his kit to master, and most ekko's use it for the shield and zoning. It's still a good ability though.

E is reliable

agreed

R is also unrealiable for obvious reasons... he often dies before he uses it / rarely it does much offensivly

often isn't really true, but I'll agree it tends to be used defensively until you get zonya's and someone decides to stand on you lol

Passive is unreliable due to q being unreliable

As previously stated, e THEN q like every ekko main.

Idk mate best nocturnes just aerial one shot me / my teammates. He doesnt have to be 10.0 for that. 2.0 is enough. Why would his target also be under tower

Nocturne is a strong skirmish jg. he can get ahead through pouchers dirt and invading (my serrated dirk is almost always built off my opponents jungle with pouchers dirk while I build my warhammer in gold). His ult is also best used from your opponents jungle.

When you say 1 shot do you mean 100-0 or 30-0? 100-0 tends to require celerity, predator (or a lot of dark harvest stacks), and at least warrior+duskblade+teir 2 boots. This means he is either VERY far ahead or going to die when he goes in, and in either case he's fucked lategame.

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=epr6c4R4,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-19T18:07:02.572+0000)

http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=poske

I must be looking at this wrong then.

Statistics only show end of season rank and dont date long enough to see me being twice chall last year

Grats?

A niche assassin with high snowball potential and a very feast or famine kit has a low winrate? The low elo's making mistakes constantly and getting punished couldn't have anything to do with that, after-all they only make up 90% of the community.

Lolalytic statistics platinum +

Of course you want to hit your e, but the point is she has a long range poke that does good damage and clears waves while also giving her sustain. She also has an ult that allows her to reposition, a w that hits the priority target, and an e that is essentially a skill shot version of a slightly shorter malz ult with a longer range that buffs everything she throws out.

You have to always hit your E. You can never dive with RWQ And save E for later.. thats annoying. I played that ahri iteration cant believe its back

omg, a melee champion who actually has to HIT the minions once for them to die?!?!?!? You're right, RIOT this needs to be fixed!!!! Also protobelt is good on ekko because it gives him a dash, extra burst, hp, cdr, ap, and when joined with his e means he can explode it in your face.

Protobelt is good for many reasons on ekko securing minions is important one. Look I was just mentioning issues with Ekko, He used to be outclassed by Ahri and Le blanc but he lost 2 issues with their changes

his 1 point a click ability is his most reliable? REALLY?

Yeah

This is true, which is why ekko mains tend to e THEN q as it's almost guaranteed to hit on the way back

No you just walk backwards he has to hit you 3 times to get movementspeed by the time he does that He cant get infront of you

Which means he only gets a shield when he jumps into it? No but seriously I have heard this is the hardest piece of his kit to master, and most ekko's use it for the shield and zoning. It's still a good ability though.

Its good when it works. But I see it work at such a low rate that Idk... Atleast in a past at 2.5 second stun it was beter, it was worth the miracle when it worked.

As previously stated, e THEN q like every ekko main.

I side step those often. And again as i said before doesnt suddenly make it reliable

Nocturne is a strong skirmish jg. he can get ahead through pouchers dirt and invading (my serrated dirk is almost always built off my opponents jungle with pouchers dirk while I build my warhammer in gold). His ult is also best used from your opponents jungle.

I didnt have a problem with nocturne until best Eune jungler started abusing him. He could always one shot but now your team cant see anything for a longer time and he needs less snowball to reach a toxic point

I generaly dont see nocturne as a toxic champion, but recently Riot lower his insane impact ultimate cooldown, buffed his utility and damage..

When you say 1 shot do you mean 100-0 or 30-0? 100-0 tends to require celerity, predator (or a lot of dark harvest stacks), and at least warrior+duskblade+teir 2 boots. This means he is either VERY far ahead or going to die when he goes in, and in either case he's fucked lategame.

He is not bad lategame. Block ability scales well due to being block ability. He has 2 second fear. his darkness thingy tilts every single enemy

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Statistics only show end of season rank and dont date long enough to see me being twice chall last year

Lolalytic statistics platinum +

You have to always hit your E. You can never dive with RWQ And save E for later.. thats annoying. I played that ahri iteration cant believe its back

Protobelt is good for many reasons on ekko securing minions is important one. Look I was just mentioning issues with Ekko, He used to be outclassed by Ahri and Le blanc but he lost 2 issues with their changes

Yeah

No you just walk backwards he has to hit you 3 times to get movementspeed by the time he does that He cant get infront of you

Its good when it works. But I see it work at such a low rate that Idk... Atleast in a past at 2.5 second stun it was beter, it was worth the miracle when it worked.

I side step those often. And again as i said before doesnt suddenly make it reliable

I didnt have a problem with nocturne until best Eune jungler started abusing him. He could always one shot but now your team cant see anything for a longer time and he needs less snowball to reach a toxic point

I generaly dont see nocturne as a toxic champion, but recently Riot lower his insane impact ultimate cooldown, buffed his utility and damage..

He is not bad lategame. Block ability scales well due to being block ability. He has 2 second fear. his darkness thingy tilts every single enemy

Oh cool, I'm gold then =)

Plat + is the top 10% of players, meaning you're discounting the other 90% of the community

If he e's then q's you he can easily match the angle to hit the 2nd part, or just auto you to proc electrocute and his passive and back off happy with taking you down 60% of your hp.

Yes if you are tower diving with ahri then e is essential, but I'd still say her 100-0 potential being on a 10 second cooldown isn't really worth complaining about.

ChisatoShirasagi2 votes

Ashe is what every ADC should be, easy to kill and immobile.

Stacona1 votes

Ashe also offers a bunch of utility to her team and allows you to engage as the marksman

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

You're quite right about the things you said. This would help with the issue of Assassins becoming more useful if they got behind instead of relying on what ever lower damage that they would have then some other opponents.

Stacona1 votes

For League of Legends, Assassins need to be reclassified as neutralizers rather than executors. Champions like Quinn and Warwick would be executors because they can chase down low health targets effectively. Assassins should be lowered in damage and instead make it where they are all about making someone useless or bringing them out of the fight, either through flanking or effective ways to get to the back line, and then that allows their team to win the fight.

It grants assassins uniqueness and a real role to their team, because why pick a melee damage dealer when you can be a mage or marksman and do that at range (with exceptions to melee mages like Mordekaiser, but he obviously plays more back line like a ranged mage due to his immobility).

LoL is NOT a single player game, so you cannot have those quick kill fantasies and be healthy for the game like what you get from Assassin's Creed. So instead you need to come up with something that makes sense out of an assassin, but be healthy in a PvP game, and making them neutralizers rather than seeing kill or be killed makes them always useful to their team and can be made a lot healthier since damage is not their focus point - marksmen and mages have a focal point of dealing damage instead - league assassins should be about making the enemy damage dealers to not deal damage.

Not to say assassins would have no damage, but their burst is massively toned back and replaced with utility effects instead. Could add new debuffs to the game like causes the target to be unable to deal damage for X seconds, so rather than killing the target outright, you instead slowly beat on the target and the target cannot deal any damage to you or your team during the debuff time (just one example of something you can do as a neutralizer).

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