Why does vayne have a 4.25 ad ratio on a 2 second colldown?

Dasdi96·Oct 4, 2016·20 votes·1,715 views

It is bad enough it gives her insane mobility. Please remove her ability to crit on her bonus q damage.

59 Comments

Sightless66Oct 4, 201615 votes

So, you want to take a below-average winrate champion, who has virtually no competitive presence, and apply a fairly large nerf to them. Ok. Makes total sense.

So, what next? Do you have a proposal for what you're willing to give her in return, or is this post just pure salt through-and-through?

ParoeOct 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So, you want to take a below-average winrate champion, who has virtually no competitive presence, and apply a fairly large nerf to them. Ok. Makes total sense.

So, what next? Do you have a proposal for what you're willing to give her in return, or is this post just pure salt through-and-through?

i mean... vayne is a duelist. Shes like quinn, but due to a lack of mass mobility she plays in the botlane.

Ive seen some pretty scary quinn,vayne, and kalista tops.

Sightless66Oct 4, 20165 votes

I think you have accidentally responded to the wrong person.

ParoeOct 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think you have responded to the incorrect person.

No, i didnt. Vayne is less a botlaner in the current meta of range and burst. Top lane vayne is like quinn and kalista; they dont really care because top lane is an island and they can powerfarm in peace.

Sightless66Oct 4, 20165 votes

What does that have to do with anything I said? I said she's a mediocre champion, which is true regardless of whether you play her bot or top. I'm well aware that you can technically play her top, but I don't understand why you think that is related to what I said. Where does Vayne being able to go top fit into this discussion? It seems like a complete non sequitur from where I stand.

I mean, I'll respond to what you wrote, but I'm doing so even though I don't see how it was supposed to be a response to my first post.

Vayne is less a botlaner in the current meta of range and burst.

No, she's a botlaner, through and through. It's where she's best, and she's not even very good there.

Top lane vayne is like quinn and kalista

Are you claiming that Vayne and Kalista are good top? If so, I strongly disagree.

Ive seen some pretty scary quinn,vayne, and kalista tops.

And I've seen scary AD Lissandras. That's about as viable as Kalista top is.

It Hertz When IPOct 4, 20161 votes

LOL Kalista top. I'll file that with "ADC Vel'koz" and "Jungle Janna" on my list of things that only work in Beginner Bots.

Masala ChaiOct 5, 20161 votes

I've actually played that in ranked after her most recent nerfs. (Instalock ADC I cri everitiem). Shen cried tears of joy (hue) as he could never catch up to me.

Also have played Kalista jungle (in ranked), Kalista support (in normals), the only place I haven't played her is midlane.

ChalizardOct 5, 20161 votes

No, he doesn't want to change Aatrox. He wants to change vayne, average win rate champion with high pick rate which lot of People considere skill requiring. Her only disadventage is her weak early game which should be problem in current meta and after all she is still able to have >50% win rate. Her late game is bullshit when she can kill enemy tank as fast as she blows carries.

Sightless66Oct 5, 20161 votes

He wants to change vayne

I suppose gutting is technically a form of change. Personally, I prefer my changes to balanced champions to be actual changes instead of large nerfs.

lot of People considere skill requiring.

And yet, her winrate among people with many games on her barely breaks 50%. That's pathetic. If we're going to say that she requires skill, then we should question why she's doing so atrociously poorly among people who main her. That would seem to indicate that she's too weak. Of course, that's just what the numbers say.

average win rate

Yes, because average winrates justify nerfs if you just get salty enough.

There's no justification for straight nerfs. The only thing out of line about her is her playrate, and that's not good enough to call for nerfs. Even if we were talking about nerfing her, we'd also have to talk about what buffs we'd give her in return.

Her only disadventage is her weak early game

That's just wrong. Vayne has weaknesses in her lack of any form of AoE damage, medicore waveclear even with itemization, complete lack of ability to influence a fight from beyond her autoattack range, necessity for telegraphing who she is going to be hitting, and mediocre teamfighting. You have plenty of options for playing against Vayne.

The idea that Vayne is unstoppable in the late game is just silly. You can play against her without too much effort. The only thing unusual about her is that defensive stats are slightly less effective than normal against her.

Her late game is bullshit when she can kill enemy tank as fast as she blows carries.

Single target damage is the only thing she has going for her, and it's not even good enough to make her late game amazing. I'll take a Jinx, Twitch or Ashe over her late game anyday. At least they teamfight well.

ChalizardOct 5, 20161 votes

Good comment, essential, concise Idk If I can say what I want to in such way but I will try.

About her win rate and skill cap. She is considered hard for many players and with her pick rate she still has average win rate. Hard champions should have lower win rate as people playing them not maining them should make their win rates lower.
Her average win rate shows that even people randomly playing her can win according to her high pick rate.
Her farm is not that bad aspecially with statikk. Enemies have to be in her AA range That's right but I guess that is what adcs are about, well at last most of them.
I don't know any adc with aoe damage popular/strong in current meta, maybe jinx but I think it's not really aoe as her rockets have short radious but I know adc with stun on his Point and click spell, True damage with scaling from enemy % hp.
I would not call this "only single target damage" I would call that high as fuck single target damage and Def stats are useless against her No matter Armor, mr or hp.
All adcs you mentioned are easy to kill by assassin and can't fight with strong support protecting them and has No mobility. Vayne has it all and more.

Sightless66Oct 5, 20161 votes

Hard champions should have lower win rate as people playing them not maining them should make their win rates lower

There are two problems with applying this generalization to Vayne. First, this is only true if the people who are maining her are actually winning a lot, while people who don't play her a lot are losing a ton. In Vayne's case, this is not accurate. Her winrate on highly experienced players is well below average for that stat (it peaks at 51.81%, which is atrociously bad).

Second, Vayne has the highest "playerbase average games played" stat of all the AD carries. About 11% of the people playing her have fewer than 15 games on her. This tells us that her winrate is not being dragged down much by unskilled players. Skilled players are the main group of people playing her. The winrate reflects those players, not inexperienced players.

Oh, and while we're on that subject:

She is considered hard for many players

I strongly question whether she should be. Her difference in winrate between people with a high number of games on her and people with a low number of games on her is average. Lock standard. Normal. I don't see a good reason to think that she's so absurdly difficult that we need to go questioning her statistics.

The only conclusion I can make is that Vayne's winrate should not be considered too high. I don't see any other way to interpret this data. As I said before, the only stat that isn't normal about her is the very low winrate her mains have on her, and if she really is as hard as you say, then that statistic is the one we should be questioning.

Her farm is not that bad aspecially with statikk.

It really is. She farms atrociously slow, which is a huge part of why putting her behind is so strong against her.

Enemies have to be in her AA range That's right but I guess that is what adcs are about, well at last most of them.

Most AD carries can contribute significantly to a fight from beyond 550 range. That's important. It means that whenever an angry Syndra or pissed off Zed zones them from a fight, they can still help their team. Vayne can't. If she's zoned, she's useless. That's it. No other options beyond putting herself in danger.

Additionally, it means that if she ever falls behind in lane, then she loses all ability to farm. If you can't clear a wave from beyond autoattack range, then you get fucked when you fall behind bot lane.

I don't know any adc with aoe damage popular/strong in current meta

Well, we're obviously talking about solo queue because Vayne's competitive preformance is nill. In solo queue, we can look at Jinx, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Ashe's W/Arrow: All of these have large or moderate AoE potential. They can contribute significant amounts of splashing damage to a teamfight. It's a big part of why they're all much stronger than Vayne is for solo queue.

Def stats are useless against her No matter Armor, mr or hp.

This is exaggerated to hell. First, defensive stats have their gold value reduced by about 20% against her. That's it. Armor and health still work fine.

Second, I'm much more concerned with how much counterplay a kit has, and Vayne has tons of it. There are plenty of actions you can take against her. Buying defensive stats is the weakest form of counterplay the game has because it's completely passive.

I would call that high as fuck single target damage

Of course it's high as fuck. She doesn't do anything else. The only things she does are single target damage and self-preservation (and of course, self-preservation can be brought to a team through supports or other team members). Shitty utility (no, her highly conditional stun is not good utility when you look at the much more versatile and reliable utility other carries bring), no AoE damage, no way of contributing to a fight from range, no initiation power, no waveclear.

Vayne has it all and more.

No, she has two things. Single target dps, and self-preservation. Other AD carries have way, way more things going for them than this, and it's why a ton of them are better than her. She gives up a lot for what she does.

Vayne is fine. She's balanced. People get salty about her because they care way, way too much about the true damage. There's nothing to more this story.

ChalizardOct 5, 20161 votes

I have never said she is hard to play, I said only what most of people I have met thinks about her, in my opinion her skill floor is low and even her skill ceiling is not the biggest one.

I don't like her, I think her invisibility, mobility during teamfights and strong damage is something that put her above average adc and make her kinda unballanced, just not in current meta.

The only problem with her is that she is not the best option in current meta. Lot of tanks with CC and long range adcs are something that she struggles with hardly. Also lack of assassins that can threat champions like MF or Twitch puts them in better position.

In my opinion she is completly countered by current meta and she still manages to has 4th pick rate and average win rate.

Sightless66Oct 5, 20161 votes

I have never said she is hard to play

You kind of did, and I'll quote you to show what I mean. You said "Hard champions should have lower win rate as people playing them not maining them should make their win rates lower. " You used that as an explanation for why Vayne's winrate is too high. Why use that argument if you don't actually think she's hard? Either you think she's hard, in which case this argument makes sense, or you don't think she's hard, in which case I have to question why you made an argument based on a premise that you don't even agree with.

I think her invisibility, mobility during teamfights and strong damage is something that put her above average adc and make her kinda unballanced,

I disagree. I think you're putting too much of a focus on single-target dps and self-preservation. I don't think they're as valuable as you give them credit for in comparison to other mechanics.

In my opinion she is completly countered by current meta

I have to disagree there. The meta is fine for her. Nothing amazing, but not bad either. There may be more mages than assassins, but bruisers and tanks are both roaming free and no one loves that more than Vayne. Mage supports (the historical counter to Vayne) are in a pretty mediocre position compared to tank supports. The AD carry is split pretty evenly between champions that she's great against, and champions that she's terrible against.

Basically, it's a standard meta. If neither favors nor disfavors her. I think the idea that she's countered by the current metagame is just wrong.

So, if she's completely average in an average meta for them, then that's pretty normal. It's where we expect champions to be.

she still manages to has 4th pick rate

She always has a high pick rate. Even earlier this season when she was the third worst ADC in the game (surpassing only Kalista and Corki), she had a huge pick rate. It's not indicative of her balance state.

ChalizardOct 5, 20161 votes

I have seen so many vaynes that could one hit enemy adc that I guess I put so much focus on her damage not without a reason.

In my opinion current meta is against her, first of all Jhin, Lucian, Ez, all of them are good against her with their powerful early game and even better mid part.

I don't think tanks are good for vayne as most of them = strong CCs which counter vayne pretty hard.

Also I have noticed that games lasts quite short last time which is hard for vayne as she has no way to get to her full potential. Well at least That's what happens in my games.

I don't think she is the most op champion now, I just think her damage and self-preservation are unhealthy and makes her kinda too strong.

GULAG 4 UOct 4, 20169 votes

Where the actual f*ck is that 4.25 ad scaling? With a crit? Oh yeah. Caitlyn does that with range : ^), and without wasting mana too. So yeah... i'll kindly ask you to shut up about vayne.

ChalizardOct 4, 20168 votes

They should change tooltip for Q - Tumble - Active: Vayne quickly rolls toward the cursor's location, causing her next basic attack within 7 seconds to instantly kill enemy champion and remove LoL files from his Computer.

AstôlfoOct 4, 201610 votes

You mean...

[...] causing her next basic attack within 7 seconds to instantly open up League Boards and post a QQ thread about Vayne.

Sariat1Oct 4, 20163 votes

That isn't already a thing? Coulda fooled me...

DealthOct 5, 20164 votes

are you assuming my gender

VallalanOct 4, 20165 votes

I am tired of seeing these threads. if you can't get fed off of vayne in lane you should never play adc again. unless she is paired with soraka you can dumpster her, zone her, or just straight up feed off of her before she gets her crit. if you are letting her scale evenly and get her items then thats on you. vayne has always been strong. and now she's just a bit stronger a bit earlier. which is fine. she is still 100% hot ass in lane and still punishable.

Dasdi96Oct 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cute Boosted ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eoMfRHKN,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-04T20:25:04.496+0000)

I am tired of seeing these threads. if you can't get fed off of vayne in lane you should never play adc again. unless she is paired with soraka you can dumpster her, zone her, or just straight up feed off of her before she gets her crit. if you are letting her scale evenly and get her items then thats on you. vayne has always been strong. and now she's just a bit stronger a bit earlier. which is fine. she is still 100% hot ass in lane and still punishable.

The issue is if I try to be agressive against vayne, her jungler comes and ganks me. Meanwhile the enemy vayne can be as agressive as she wants because my jungler is usually a bonobo.

Sightless66Oct 4, 20165 votes

So, your problem isn't really with Vayne, but with whatever vengeful god decided that you would always have strictly worse teammates than your opponents? Cause, I'm pretty sure that you're going to end up fucked against most anyone if you're not allowed to ever be aggressive against them while they get free leeway to be aggressive against you.

VallalanOct 4, 20162 votes

this is why you learn to play attention to the map and wait for jungler to appear on the map before you turn aggressive. but they will eventually be somewhere else. they cant sit bot lane forever. even if they do. as long as you dont die, while vayne may get o scale. their jungler is now fucked because they are behind and now useless.

but they wont though. no one does that. they only feel like they are camping you because you turn aggressive without calculation or knowing where they are at.

WoonStruckOct 4, 20164 votes

You're an idiot if you think Vayne is free kills. Cait is the only one with a huge advantage over her early, and Vayne very quickly has much higher kill pressure on her.

Outside of jungle influence, lane is determined almost entirely by support and their actions, not ADC.

Maybe its you that should never play ADC again. lol.

PermabannedGarenOct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You're an idiot if you think Vayne is free kills. Cait is the only one with a huge advantage over her early

Imaqtpie: Vayne loses to every other ADC in laning phase.

No but yeah I'm sure you know more about ADC match-ups than challenger ADC mains, being a dime a dozen former gold player and all.

Sir FuzziOct 5, 20161 votes

Honestly I'm a bigger fan of Fiora's ass, but I've always been a Sona guy at heart. When will they give her a Headmistress skin?

Project Ashe has a good one, too, but...

Axe2HandleOct 4, 20165 votes

Do you even Vayne? I ask because its obvious you have no idea the strength/weaknesses of the champion.

DunkinNoobsOct 4, 20164 votes

I like how people are complaining about this as if it's a new thing. Vayne's Q damage could always crit boys, they just changed how it's calculated.

WoonStruckOct 4, 20161 votes

they also buffed its damage by a massive 40%.

DunkinNoobsOct 4, 20163 votes

Methinks you don't quite understand how math works. 150% to 170% is only a 13% increase in damage.

WoonStruckOct 4, 20161 votes

50->70 is a 40% increase to the bonus damage.

Methinks you don't quite understand how math works.

Since when is bonus damage considered in the same category as auto attack damage applied by any on-hit/on-attack skill?

Let's assume Jax has 125 AD (about right for level 9 with TF). Jax's W were buffed to 252 damage, granting ~552 damage per sheen proc W, people wouldn't be saying "Its only a 13% increase to that auto attack's damage", they'd be saying "Holy shit! that's a 72 damage buff on his W! WTF!"

Let's assume Vayne has 150 AD (about right for lvl 9 with IE). That means instead of dealing 225 damage with Q, she'll now deal 255. If she crits, she's dealing 637 damage instead of 563. Since we're assuming the intent is to crit (much like Jax with sheen proc), we will apply that. She's essentially getting a 74 damage increase on her Q.

Even if you want to argue reliability of crit vs sheen procs, without sheen, jax only sits at a 19% increase with that change.

We consider bonus damage because that's how this game works. It doesn't matter if its attached to an auto attack. It doesn't matter if the bonus damage can crit. Bonus damage is still distinct.

DunkinNoobsOct 4, 20164 votes

Vayne's tumble auto used to do 150% of her AD. Now it does 170% of her AD. You don't get to take out the 100% base just to make your argument look better. Her tumble auto does 13% more damage than it used to. But let's say it crits: 375% to 425%. 50%/375% still equals a 13% increase in damage babe. Yes, it does 40% more bonus damage than it used to. But we don't care about that. What we really care about is how much extra damage she's doing overall, and that answer is 13% on every max rank Q whether or not it crits.

Meep ManOct 4, 20162 votes

150% Crit is 300%, 170% Crit is 340%, that is 40% increased damage. With an Infinity Edge, that is 425% AD.

DunkinNoobsOct 4, 20164 votes

That's not how math works. Going from 300% to 340% is still only a 13% increase in damage. With an IE, it's 375% and 425%, still only a 13% increase in damage.

It Hertz When IPOct 4, 20161 votes

You're wasting your time, bro. Just let it go.

Meep ManOct 5, 20162 votes

13% increase is pretty big still for an ability that can already hit like a truck

DunkinNoobsOct 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eoMfRHKN,comment-id=000700000000000100000001,timestamp=2016-10-05T12:19:00.776+0000)

13% increase is pretty big still for an ability that can already hit like a truck

Sure. Doesn't change the fact that Vayne still sucks though.

LeetriOct 4, 20163 votes

It's an increase of 40 percentage points, but as DunkinNoobs has pointed out it's only a 13% increase in actual damage. Say her attack deals 200 damage. 300% increases it to 600 damage. 340% increases it to 680 damage. 680/600 is 1.13333 (...) or a 13% increase.

BloodyTomponOct 5, 20161 votes

It's the same way going from 1% to 2% is doubling the 1%, but only an increase of 1%..

WoonStruckOct 5, 20161 votes

However, if that 1% ratio is already extremely strong (in terms of League), doubling its damage its obviously going to make it a problem. That's why Tracking % increases/reductions is more reliable. It doesn't matter how large or small the numbers behind that representative % is, its being measured in a numerically unbiased way.

Not saying that Vayne's Q was already extremely strong, just that the values behind a representative % change do not matter as far as what that % change represents.

DracocrashOct 4, 20162 votes

4.25 ad scaling on an auto attack, that would normally have 2.5 ad scaling.

AgentBlackOct 4, 20162 votes

Gives her insane mobility and actually REDUCES her DPS.

Vayne doesn't give a fuck about the bonus damage on Q, she wants to stand still and maximize her W procs. She itemizes mostly attack speed to do this, so the extra AD scaling on her Q really isn't a big deal. Whenever she tumbles, she's losing damage, period. She just loses less damage after the buff, and what damage she gets is more consistent.

Dasdi96Oct 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Gives her insane mobility and actually REDUCES her DPS.

Vayne doesn't give a fuck about the bonus damage on Q, she wants to stand still and maximize her W procs. She itemizes mostly attack speed to do this, so the extra AD scaling on her Q really isn't a big deal. Whenever she tumbles, she's losing damage, period. She just loses less damage after the buff, and what damage she gets is more consistent.

How does she lose dps when using q? It is an auto attack reset, which means she is doing more dps and massive burst, espicially with her 100% crit build.

DunkinNoobsOct 4, 20168 votes

Because with enough attack speed, the cast animation of Q takes longer than her AA does to reset, effectively losing AS.

BloodyTomponOct 5, 20161 votes

Q takes longer than 2 aa even with it being an auto reset.

WarlockLawOct 5, 20161 votes

Early game sure, but later on it starts lower her attack speed due to the stack animation duration. Even early game it doesn't really increase her attack speed, just gives her something to do while waiting for the next auto attack.

TeemoXNidaleeOct 4, 20161 votes

Meanwhile Talon full combo is 4.0 BONUS AD

MunchCrunchLunchOct 5, 20161 votes

it has base damage. but i do gt the point lmao.

RequiemsfireOct 5, 20161 votes

The issue with Vayne isn't the damage, it's how god damn frustrating it is to play against her with the way her Q functions in contrast with her R. Every 2 seconds get a dash, turn invisible and deal an a small nuke upon re-positioning. It's hard to deal with because she just goes and presses Q again and then it becomes a game of trying to hit the Vayne because you know a lot of champions have skill shots instead of point and click abilities. Without a vision ward they simply don't have the tools to deal with her unless your name is Annie.

WarlockLawOct 5, 20161 votes

Well, it's a 30-70% bonus ad ratio, but yeah you were pretty close.