Why are tanks the only role without a high impact item?

The thigh guy·Jul 8, 2019·20 votes·7,114 views

Adc gets infinity edge Assassins have duskblade Bruisers have black cleaver and triforce Mages have every lost chapter item Onhit spammers have rageblade

What item do tanks have that actually make you feel different when you have it? Deadman’s? I mean. I guess when you are running to lane? Warmogs? Not really. Spirit visage? Again, not really?

I’ve never once built a tank item and said “wow I feel so much stronger now!” Where as every other role I’ve had this feeling once I get a core item.

We seriously need tank items that feel good to build.

64 Comments

BeersteinJul 8, 20197 votes

I feel like high impact items are bad, maybe the problem is that everyone else has them, not that tanks don't.

DragonSheaJul 9, 20195 votes

used to be item 3068 + item 3065 but right now armor items don't really have a high impact in the game anymore.

3TWarriorJul 9, 20195 votes

team fights used to be long enough that sunfire was a decent damage option as well

KirikaJul 8, 20194 votes

I agree.

KanzlerJul 8, 20194 votes

item 3193

RagnaveilJul 8, 20198 votes

niche as hell and doesn't provide health. All it does is double it but we still take the same amount of damage we normally would take (and if you use that in front of a BotRK user, % max health user, or Vayne, they'll rip you apart in seconds)

KanzlerJul 8, 20194 votes

You seem to be arguing with yourself in this post. First you say it's bad because it doesnt provide health and then you proceed to say that health stacking is bad.

RagnaveilJul 9, 20193 votes

No, im just saying how it works right now sucks. We lose damage (as if we did any right now in the first place) in favor of doubling our health, so by doing so we are shooting ourselves in the foot vs those users. But we also cant at the same time just stack armor, because all they have to do is spend 1300 g for a strong component.

The thigh guyJul 8, 20198 votes

{quoted}

Stoneplate is not a good item. It has to rely on at minimum 3 other items.

Duskblade? Massive boost by itself Infinity edge? Massive boost by itself Luden’s echo? Massive boost by itself

And they all have some innate scaling to their effects as well.

Point is. Tanks have no items that are heavy impact.

Sure I live 0.2 seconds longer sometimes. But when I can’t do anything but that because my items don’t do anything else, you kinda just get bent over

KanzlerJul 8, 20191 votes

Just because your high impact item isnt a high impact first item, doesnt mean it's not any good.

The thigh guyJul 9, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Just because your high impact item isnt a high impact first item, doesnt mean it's not any good.

Yes. It does. Your first item is by MILES The most important item you will ever build. If you disagree try building sub optimally.

Playing ryze? Go ahead. Build void staff instead of a tear first.

Playing Caitlyn? Please, do build a mortal reminder first item.

KanzlerJul 9, 20192 votes

Sivir and xayah dont build IE first. Kaisa doesnt build guinsoos first. Ezreal doesnt build tri force first. Draven doesnt build IE first. The list goes on.

You didnt seem to understand my point. Many tank items are perfectly good to build first. Tanks are far stronger on 1 item than any other class in the game.

The thigh guyJul 9, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Sivir and xayah dont build IE first. Kaisa doesnt build guinsoos first. Ezreal doesnt build tri force first. Draven doesnt build IE first. The list goes on.

You didnt seem to understand my point. Many tank items are perfectly good to build first. Tanks are far stronger on 1 item than any other class in the game.

So if and xayah build essessence reaver first. Which is a much larger spike than any singular tank item.

Ezreal builds manamune first. Which again. Feels better than any tank item.

Draven rushes either ie or blood thirster. Both of which feel infinitely better.

No one says “man I finally got my sunfire cape, I’m so strong now”

KanzlerJul 9, 20192 votes

Ezcept that they do. A completed tank item is a big spike. The only difference is that it's easier to perceive doing more damage than it is to perceive your increased survivability.

Everything you have been saying is your opinion which is not supported by the math behind item breakpoints.

The thigh guyJul 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Ezcept that they do. A completed tank item is a big spike. The only difference is that it's easier to perceive doing more damage than it is to perceive your increased survivability.

Everything you have been saying is your opinion which is not supported by the math behind item breakpoints.

No. A completed tank item by itself is actual garbage.

A sunfire maokai is still getting killed in roughly the same amount of time as a naked one.

KanzlerJul 9, 20192 votes

Unless your definition of 'roughly' is +/- 10 seconds, that is just factually incorrect. If you want to be taken seriously with your claims, try to avoid hyperbole being the main backbone of every argument you make.

The thigh guyJul 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Unless your definition of 'roughly' is +/- 10 seconds, that is just factually incorrect. If you want to be taken seriously with your claims, try to avoid hyperbole being the main backbone of every argument you make.

Roughly - approximately the same, with slight a slight differential.

There is no set it stone limit on it.

And is it really hyperbole when it’s true and you know it.

Tank stats do not matter.

KanzlerJul 9, 20191 votes

And how are you supporting your claims? What data/proof do you have?

chipndip1Jul 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eln0xjkE,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-07-08T21:10:40.666+0000)

Stoneplate is not a good item. It has to rely on at minimum 3 other items.

Duskblade? Massive boost by itself Infinity edge? Massive boost by itself Luden’s echo? Massive boost by itself

And they all have some innate scaling to their effects as well.

Point is. Tanks have no items that are heavy impact.

Sure I live 0.2 seconds longer sometimes. But when I can’t do anything but that because my items don’t do anything else, you kinda just get bent over

To be fair: Properly using Stoneplate doesn't make you last ".2 seconds longer". That thing's a MASSIVE buff to your overall tankiness when you use the passive right.

Also, I find that the problem isn't necessarily "tanks don't last long enough" more than it's "carries are designed to make super quick work out of tanks". Non-carries will find it impossible to deal with a tank in an orderly fashion. Carries melt the shit out of you and there's nothing you can do but build Randuin's so you can survive for like 1 second longer.

FSRERJul 9, 20192 votes

And it took that Vayne 3 more autos to kill me once I activated it.

KanzlerJul 9, 20191 votes

What about other adcs? Using vayne, the designated tank buster, as your rationale as to why the item is bad seems a bit odd.

That and I doubt you could only take 3 more autos. Let's gave a balanced 3 item tank build with spirit visage, sunfire cape, and gargoyles. Your tank now has 140 bonus armor, 135 bonus MR, and 875 bonus health. At this point your physical damage reduction is about 70%.

Let's assume level 14 as the 3 item point for both champs.

Vayne with her standard first 3 items has +65 ad and a bork passive. Guinsoos will not be stacked since you're using stoneplate at the start of the fight to maximize its value. Her total AD is 158 at this point.

Maokai will have 1895 base health + 875 bonus hp for a total of 2770 hp.

So, you activate the item and gain 2000 hp (doubling your current hp, assuming you took damage during the engage).

To validate your claim of 3 autos being all it takes to kill you, here is the equation. I'll even simplify the bork damage and increase it in your favor (for calculation simplicity).

2*(158+(.084000)).3 + (158 + .7(158)+(.084000)).3 + .14*4000.

Those 3 autos just did about 1023. Now, the actual damage you did will vary a bit based on your keystone rune and some other factors like crit. However, those factors arent getting you the extra 1k damage you need to claim 3 more autos will kill a tank popping stoneplate.

SeaWeabooJul 9, 20193 votes

First of all, he was using what we like to call a hyperbole. Also, vayne's passive literally counters anything a tank can build. Oh let me build some armor, oh her w does true damage. I'll just build health, wait her w also does max hp damage (not forgetting a bork for the bonus max health damage, and rageblade with its mr and armor pen). Also with items like stoneplate, it really only provides any benefit when in a team fight as a 2v2 or 1v1 you just get 40 armor and mr and the active is just 40% unless there are 3+ enemies around.

KanzlerJul 9, 20191 votes

Hyperbole makes a really shitty argument and only serves as an indicator that you dont have any real substance.

Yeah, your high impact item is a teamfight item? What's the problem with that?

There are plenty of other high impact items you can get besides stoneplate. item 3800 item 3075 item 3194

The thigh guyJul 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hyperbole makes a really shitty argument and only serves as an indicator that you dont have any real substance.

Yeah, your high impact item is a teamfight item? What's the problem with that?

There are plenty of other high impact items you can get besides stoneplate.

There are none that come even close to as effective as the other roles items.

Thornmail is a meme. Righteous glory doesn’t offer enough in stats. And adaptive helm is literally only good into a very specific set of champions.

ProfDrDeathJul 8, 20194 votes

Tanks don't really have a core item like the other classes, that's true. It is probably linked to different reasons, a few of which are:

Tank builds need to vary the most of all classes from game to game, given that the ability to survive the enemy damage output needs to respond to the exact ways said enemy outputs the damage
It is difficult to design a tank item that won't get abused by other classes
Offense, in the end, needs to outscale defense

That being said, tank itemization felt worse and worse over the years, mostly due to how their competing classes (competing as in, slots in a team comp) got better and more convenient items. Build paths became easier, completed items became more powerful (compare release Death's Dance with current Death's Dance, for instance).

So, it might be a good time to start discussing about giving tanks a core item that fulfills their power fantasy without being abusive.

rujitraJul 8, 20193 votes

I think the problem with “tank” as a class is it’s too general. Two champions can both be tanks and have the similarities end there.

As an example, Galio is a tank who has hard engage with his ult. Braum is a tank that sits there in front of the team with a wall to protect the team while moving forward. Each has different items that are beneficial.

Most other classes of champs have one item that is “high impact” for the class because the similarities between champs in the class are so large as to permit one item to be used on all of them pretty much.

Riot could create a tank item that would work well on all tanks (or rework warmogs, I guess), but it’d likely result in many tanks being OP when they got the “universal” high-impact item and their normal builds. There’s a discussion to be had regarding whether this generalized class of “tank” needs reworking (or possible split into “AD tank” versus “AP tank”), but that’s a different discussion imo.

D357R0Y3RJul 8, 20193 votes

they used to before the tank update with sunfire (when it had 40 damage per second at all ranks)

then riot claimed that they didn't want tanks to have a one powerspike tankiness item and nerfed sunfire's damage to be weak in early game

SuperLuigiLXIVJul 8, 20193 votes

The cynical side of me would like to point out that Riot shits on tanks because any time they're in a good place, the game's too balanced and Riot actually hates balance, since it hurts LCS viewership. They'd rather have pointless flashiness, which is why the meta's gone to hell in a handbasket.

The optimistic side of me says that tanks don't get a high-impact item because what they build has to change per game. AD assasins will always want Duskblade, regardless of their situation. ADCs will always want IE regardless. And so on. With a tank, if you're against a four autoattacker comp, Thornmail is your high-impact moment. If you're against Teemo top and Malzahar mid, Adaptive Helm is your high-impact item. Yasuo mid and Trist bot? Randuin's. High burst mixed damage comp? Gargoyle's. Can't siege the enemy team down because of waveclear? ZZ'Rot. And so on, and so on, etc etc etc.

KirikaJul 8, 20194 votes

{quoted}

The cynical side of me would like to point out that Riot shits on tanks because any time they're in a good place, the game's too balanced and Riot actually hates balance, since it hurts LCS viewership. They'd rather have pointless flashiness, which is why the meta's gone to hell in a handbasket.

The optimistic side of me says that tanks don't get a high-impact item because what they build has to change per game. AD assasins will always want Duskblade, regardless of their situation. ADCs will always want IE regardless. And so on. With a tank, if you're against a four autoattacker comp, Thornmail is your high-impact moment. If you're against Teemo top and Malzahar mid, Adaptive Helm is your high-impact item. Yasuo mid and Trist bot? Randuin's. High burst mixed damage comp? Gargoyle's. Can't siege the enemy team down because of waveclear? ZZ'Rot. And so on, and so on, etc etc etc.

Sorry but Tanks in general are shit atm. I mean I dont want to go back to Season 3 or when it was. (well maybe I want) Where a tank could go from Base to Base slowed and continously atacked by the whole enemy team. BUt at the moment its a dmg festival and event Tenks just melt down thanks to lots of penetration and uncounterable amounts of enemy lifesteal (Some characters just heal agsint grieveious wounds..)

SuperLuigiLXIVJul 8, 20191 votes

I'm confused, because you just agreed with me while sounding like you were disagreeing with me.

KirikaJul 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused, because you just agreed with me while sounding like you were disagreeing with me.

Well you got me thinking with what you said. I think I agree with you and wanted to add the Lifesteal problem. And now I am thinking that Sona doesnt deserve her hard nerf T.T meh boeard make me miserable

Pika FoxJul 8, 20192 votes

As a strictly tank stat? Gargoyle is the closest youll get to it.

"Take less damage" is a very low feel reward. Adaptive is a massive upgrade, as is visage and warmogs, but will never feel as impactful as a massive crit or shooting multiple people, as opposed to taking damage intended for your carry a la knights vow.

Id say righteous glory is the most major impact tank item, or lolohmwreckers, if we are talking about strict feel.

PopcornBunniJul 9, 20192 votes

Because nontanks ruin tank items by using them better than tanks ever could

Chogath item 3193 item 3800 item 3110 Olaf Ezreal item 3025 DrMundo Vladimir Aatrox Garen Kayn Swain Trundle Volibear Warwick item 3065 Every single splitpusher item 3742 Soraka item 3083

All tanks have to their name is item 3068 which gives laughable stats for its gold cost, and item 3001 exclusively on Magic-dealing tanks

Oh and item 3109 for support, the only position tanks have any meaningful presence in.

EedatJul 9, 20192 votes

Does item 3800 count?

ReySolomonJul 8, 20191 votes

lol yeah when I play darius I build Tri+Steraks and then im like ..

''What now?'' lol i get w/e i think its good for the game like righteous glory/rot port etc

WoodakoodashoodaJul 9, 20191 votes

Tanks rush cinder for wave clear. After that, they generally itemize against their lane opponent.

Problem is that while that lane opponent might be AD/AP, some enemy who's the opposite will likely end up fed by your allies, rendering your defenses pointless post laning.

Items that combine resistances provide no health in exchange for both resistances; so, you still end up feeling weak.

Warmogs is great if your team's ahead, because it allows you to siege without ever backing. Otherwise, you just end up hacked to pieces by a fed enemy and their posse.

Also, most tanks don't scale off health/armor/magic resistance. There's Tahm, but even his damage from health stacking falls off in the face of hyper carries (good thing too or he'd actually be as game breaking as players claim).

Super TøpJul 9, 20191 votes

Why would you need a high impact item on tanks ? I mean you can just abuse your braindeadly base damage why building full tank and still out-damaging everyone in the game ??

You're salty because you're in a meta where tanks have 0 impact and are not rewarding. Tanks by design are retrded because if they're strong in the meta then you've to play them because you can't play anything else, if they're weak they're useless piece of beef.

Why would you even play tanks, they arent even fun lmao, just abusive I played against a maokai first item Redemption yesterday, in D2 EUW :)

SEKAIJul 9, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Tøp,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eln0xjkE,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-07-09T09:41:41.859+0000)

Why would you need a high impact item on tanks ? I mean you can just abuse your braindeadly base damage why building full tank and still out-damaging everyone in the game ??

You're salty because you're in a meta where tanks have 0 impact and are not rewarding. Tanks by design are retrded because if they're strong in the meta then you've to play them because you can't play anything else, if they're weak they're useless piece of beef.

Why would you even play tanks, they arent even fun lmao, just abusive I played against a maokai first item Redemption yesterday, in D2 EUW :)

Tanks are only meta twice in whole of League's decade long existence.

League players just have a vendetta against anything remotely tanky. Anything that can survive for more than a second is too long in their eyes.

It's funny how League's TTK is already about shorter than CoD's and there are still people believing tank is being too strong.

Super TøpJul 10, 20191 votes

I mean i don't even know why you're giving you're opinion you're literraly bronze (jk silver 4) on one of the worst server of the game (OCE).... You've literally no clue what you're talking about.

Just adapt to the meta and spam the totally not abusive OP broken braindead TANK that is.... TAHM KENCH HEHE XD

InfernapeJul 9, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Tøp,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eln0xjkE,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-07-09T09:41:41.859+0000) Why would you even play tanks, they arent even fun lmao, just abusive

That's subjective though.

Sire HippingtonJul 9, 20191 votes

I played against a maokai first item Redemption yesterday, in D2 EUW

This basically says all there is to know about the state of tank itemisation*[slayer-jinx-unamused]* When high elo rushes support items on tanks...

BoRnToKiLL666Jul 19, 20191 votes

Well its well known that diamond 2 in EU is plat 4 on NA, EU have easier games and pro players have said its easier to climb on EU compared to NA.

Sire HippingtonJul 9, 20191 votes

What i miss the most is S2 Warmongs, that items was the 1 item powerspike for tanky dudes, just a shitload of health to back up other items like thornmail, FoN or FH. Especially paired with FoN, it also gave lots of in combat sustain. This is where the current itemisation sucks, cause without that big hp item, items that only give resistances like item 3105 item 3193 item 3110 item 3025 are bad options. It also makes it harder to deal with mixed damage as a big hp item helps vs magic and physical damage, while sunfire or SV only have a bit of health to protect vs the other damage type. One could argue that we still have warmongs with it's 800 hp, but that's over500hp short of the old one and it's sustain is gated by an hp threshold that requires you to stack aditional hp, so you still can't just get warmongs and then go for FH or other non HP options. Also, there is no more tank item with 3k+ golcosts, so at full built tanks always have a much lower gold value in their inventory than other classes. Sure, this can be usefull if you run on low econ, but it's part of why tanks feel so bad in sololanes right now and are nearly exclusively used as sup or jungle. And giveing higher cost options doesn't have to mean that there are no low cost options left... Also, tank in combat sustain sucks quite a bit if you aren't maokai.

Another big issue with tank items is that there are just so many mechanics bypassing their effectivness that it just doesn't feel good. Picking up armor vs coqueror is a bad feeling, and even if we had a big HP item, it still wouödn't feel that great cause everyone and their mother has %hp damage these days, and if not they can easily get it as first or second item if they want item 3151 item 3153 Hell, is a common rush item on some champs even without high HP targets already...

Another big issue for tanks is the paceing of the game. BAck in the days, you would often get either two items or a full item and some components befor laneing was over and teamfigths started, this allowed you to get one item for the lane and one for teamfights. I often had item 3083 item 1057 item 1031 to deal with any threat by the time we had the first teamfight. Now you're lucky to have your first item complete by the time the first dragon/herald fight breaks out. This increases the need for a strong 1st item that helps in both lane and teamfights.

HammermancerJul 9, 20191 votes

item 3025 is usually pretty nice... when armor is a thing

ThefrostyvikingJul 9, 20191 votes

Probably because tanks tend to have the highest and at the same time, easiest to use abilities.....mostly in terms of powerful teamfight ults.

Amumu Malphite Sejuani Maokai Gragas Nunu Sion Galio

Critmaster GarenJul 9, 20191 votes

calling black cleaver a high impact item would be a bit of a stretch. its not nearly comparable to rageblade, i.e. or duskblade.

triforce qualifies for some fighters, but generally speaking especially juggernauts dont have a particular high impact item. just a bunch of items that are individually decently strong.

The thigh guyJul 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eln0xjkE,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2019-07-09T17:31:18.711+0000)

calling black cleaver a high impact item would be a bit of a stretch. its not nearly comparable to rageblade, i.e. or duskblade.

triforce qualifies for some fighters, but generally speaking especially juggernauts dont have a particular high impact item. just a bunch of items that are individually decently strong.

Black cleaver is an EXTREMELY high impact item.

It gives perfect stats for bruisers, and is 100% gold efficient before its passives are taken into account. Not to mention all of it’s stats and passives actually work.

Critmaster GarenJul 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eln0xjkE,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2019-07-09T21:58:02.511+0000)

Black cleaver is an EXTREMELY high impact item.

It gives perfect stats for bruisers, and is 100% gold efficient before its passives are taken into account. Not to mention all of it’s stats and passives actually work.

its a pretty weak item since its nerf, to the point where not even the champions youd expect it to buy because they have incredibly synergistic kits with it buy it 50% of the time.

like, its not a high impact item that actually allows you to carry games.

ModThe DjinnJul 9, 20191 votes

While your personal opinion on the relative power of these items may vary, Tanks have a few items that fit this bill:

Thornmail: Ups damage, reduces enemy healing. Stoneplate: Makes you VERY hard to kill and gives big in-fight moments. Sunfire Cape: Tends to feel fun to buy. Warmogs: Once you retreat from combat this feels amazing. Zz'Rot Portal: Gives you a strong ability to push lanes and threaten objectives. Frozen Fist: Splashy, visually powerful. Righteous Glory: High power active moments.

Tanks have fewer "I feel powerful" spikes, but a TON of really satisfying itemization options with high impacts in specific situations.

ZeroAgainstJul 9, 20191 votes

you really dont as a tank and thats something thats always bothered me i guess thats the payoff for having spells like sions q and r cant really talk much for tanks like sej but for rammus if there team was ad thornmale fault amazing but as of now thornmale on any other champ feels like dog shit etc i can go more on this lol