SUMMONERS; major culprit behind Top Lane's state & general current feel of the game. Hear me out.

EinarUlfar··76 votes·3,711 views

The Risk vs Reward of LoL has severely warped in past seasons. [[ TL;DR at the bottom ]]

#Towers: (particularly the First) now give more value to the team that gets them (it); alongside being relatively easy to shred due to the amount of factors that now impact them. (MPEN/AP/LETH/HERALD/DEMOLISH/+MINIONS) This coupled with other factors [ or even on it's own ] can make bouncing back feel difficult.

As a result, making a decision anywhere on the map that involves leaving your turrets alone can be rather dangerous. Meaning if you need to go stop that ADC from farming, you may be losing much more than you'd planned. Now in a 5v5 scenario in which you know everyone, it isn't organized chaos; but we play SOLO QUEUE -- which IS.

You make one decent call to assist your team, and suddenly Death himself is beating down your Inhibitor Turret with his pet Herald and Demolish Rune. It just feels bad.

#Everything-Creeping: It's no secret we've had a serious CDR/Mobility/CC/Damage creep issue for a while now. CDR is abundant (and "limited resource" is a joke now), allowing for the spamming of skills alongside autos - thereby shoving waves faster and dishing out more damage in a fight. Mobility+CC are accessible in many more champions now, and alongside easily-accessible CDR, everyone's a speeding bear trap (except Volibear) that you need AD Carry 'Burst Per Second' or an abundance of CC / point & click CC to put them in their place. Damage is found amplified through MANY passives on items now, only contributing to this deathly cycle -- these passives would ARGUABLY end up being OK with the reduction of other factors. Despite all this, realistically, you get this stuff at...what cost?

#Top Lane A moment of prayer for the lonely lane up above suffering not only due to everything that has changed in the game mentioned thus far, but also the neglect of Bruisers and ?impressive? base stats of some specific tanks. This lane is suffering due to all of the above factors, the aforementioned factor, as well as the reality that at this time -- Bot Side is just too juicy. The new Drakes, while interesting but no more interactive than the original, contribute to the Summoners trying to find Scrooge McDuck's vault down below - two fat sacks of gold, a relatively flimsy outer turret, and the inhabitants of the Drake pit.

I commend Riot for altering & implementing Herald to attempt increasing the team's interest in playing around Top a bit, but it makes far more than it's necessary contribution when everything is creeped behind it. I'm not done though with Top Lane; please read on.

#The Jungle & Top Lane Is no longer a place many Junglers have to spend farming. It's arguably a WASTE of time, to an extent, as has been proven by Korea's #1 Solo Queue Jungler. He takes buffs and camps lanes; hardly does much more than this. Taking his buffs into Top means easy dives, easy snowball, easy Herald, exacerbated snowball. But it isn't always Top. Sometimes it's Bot, because 2 being ahead can do significantly more on the map than 1 can. It doesn't matter though, the point is that the Jungler doesn't lose what he did in some of the earlier seasons by ganking over and over within a small time frame.

It's a contributing factor to Top Lane feeling like ass. You have a 2v1 (and in decent matchups, a 2v2) in Top, and there's no apparent moment of weakness for the assister, and thus EVEN LESS AGENCY than they already have.

#Agency Is my final topic. Because all of the above details note what's stripping away the sense of safety in this game. AD Carries have access to several forms of damage manipulation to bypass resistances, and as a result they're capable of shredding anything. Turrets do little to help in even early-game dive and are affected by many damage sources. Junglers don't need to sit back and rub one out in the Jungle, they can incessantly assist in map-wide snowballing and still be relatively useful later. Top Lane has lost any semblance of a "safety net" due to being heavily impacted by the changing of much of LoL. Stats that contribute to skill-usage/spamming and high AA damage are abundant in items and passives.

Aside from SOME Champions, there's little drawback to all that many stand to gain. And while I understand these changes may have been to give all players a sense of becoming stronger, it has only left many feeling as though their power has been stripped away. And that's just not fun.

TL;DR: Towers are impacted by an abundance of damage sources. Top Lane lacks agency and is heavily impacted by changes elsewhere in the game. CDR&Other stats have been incessantly creeped. Junglers can camp a lane with little farming to facilitate snowballing heavily. Game feels bad because slight snowballing (due to the above factors) feels as though Summoners are left with few to no options.

45 Comments

Verxint35 votes

The jungling point is, imo, the biggest one. Junglers don't even have to succeed at a gank. They can just camp you and ignore farming until you're forced to give something up, and then you lose a bunch of HP on your turret and the jungler does one camp and catches up, unless your jungler is Shyvana or Graves.

I'm also getting really really fucking sick of being ganked by level 3 junglers when im halfway through level 2, or by level 2 junglers 20 seconds after I get to lane. Why has this been a thing for so long?

sanaru026 votes

That shit is so tilting. The ability to outplay these scenarios 1v2 feels almost impossible much of the time. Especially if its eve or lee sin -- it is almost better to just burn flash so that you can keep laning and keep your health, but then you can't push or you'll just get ganked again for sure. Burn tp and it feels like you are just asking to get your ass camped til they kill you once and fuck your early game.

Verxint7 votes

I've had them just walk into my lane and stand between me and the creeps for a good minute because they know there's literally nothing I can do and they won't even fall behind for it.

Holy Infra2 votes

Yeah that has happened to me too, the top camp by the jungler is an easy way to get a lead because, unless you are playing as maokai or garen who have great sustain, there is not much you can do as a top laner. Unless of course you are ranged, but even then it is still difficult. Playing in top lane has been very tilting, sadly I constantly subject myself to it as I am a top main... feels bad man

ChallengerTier3 votes

that's how the enemy jungler ends up level 3 to your jungler's level 5

Verxint1 votes

And then the other jungler does 2 or 3 camps and is caught up from the xp. I've done the same thing as a jungler, it's really hard to actually fall behind in levels unless the enemy jungler is one of the power farmers like shyvana

ChallengerTier1 votes

There isnt any camps because ur jungler just took all of the enemy botside camps, and in what fucking world does doing 3 camps get you lv3 to 5?

Iffy Jarl1 votes

{quoted}

I've had them just walk into my lane and stand between me and the creeps for a good minute because they know there's literally nothing I can do and they won't even fall behind for it.

I mean that's just your jungler being bad, even if he can't 2v1 he could easily take a whole jungle side from the enemy in a good minute

AgeOfTheMage2 votes

mmhm, while your jg is off helping bot, the enemy jg is hard camping top, even when you're behind!

DracosKasu1 votes

As a jungler, I can tell you that many time when I gank lvl 3, both Top laner are generally at half hp already and one of them pushing too far without vision on the river. It is even funnier when the top lane tp back for trying to kill the top laner because he didnt back and you just stop him to do so. Yup there many greedy top laner.

sanaru021 votes

This actually just points out what I think to be a large part of the issue right now. I am encouraged to not trade, not cs in ranged matchups, and not try to zone aggressively. Otherwise, god forbid, I take damage -- perhaps down to half health and open myself to ganks. And even with that bush ward, I still may be fucked. And I ward that bush/upper river a ton.

Sorry, I forgot I was supposed to just give up cs and not confront my lane opponent. That way I don't get greedy. You know, because, why do I even need gold anyways.

Hayaishi2 votes

{quoted}

The jungling point is, imo, the biggest one. Junglers don't even have to succeed at a gank. They can just camp you and ignore farming until you're forced to give something up, and then you lose a bunch of HP on your turret and the jungler does one camp and catches up, unless your jungler is Shyvana or Graves.

I'm also getting really really fucking sick of being ganked by level 3 junglers when im halfway through level 2, or by level 2 junglers 20 seconds after I get to lane. Why has this been a thing for so long?

Junglers have been deciding the game since season 4.

Literally for 4 seasons the game has been "Best jungler wins" atleast in solo queue.

ChallengerTier1 votes

You could ward, if they seriously clear blue-gromp-wolves and head top, avoid the gank and they're fucked..?

deadlychuck13 votes

People always wonder why pro play is so passive, and it's very simple. As riot makes things more powerful and easier, to cater to so many different groups of players with different opinions on what the game should be, almost every decision becomes very inconsistent, and extremely punishing for making the wrong decision. So the solution to exceedingly higher and higher risks that riot MUST use to balance the insane numerical creep of their game, is to play increasingly passive and avoid taking the risks and maximize your punish against opponents who take them.

Riot's philosophy seems to follow that a statistical average is equivalent to a consistent rate. That's not to say that riot are the only ones with this habit. I think that a lot of game development has mistakenly done something along these lines. E.g. if you give one champion a 25% damage reduction, and another champion an immunity to damage 25% of the time on demand. Then even though both would in effect take 25% less damage, being able to control when that immunity activates makes that skill immensely more powerful (people just don't understand, coincidentally named, game theory i guess...). Though there's really no way to objectively quantify by how much. Which is the root of the problem.

How much should the unique passives of items and the new masteries be worth, both with respect to the gold cost and balance numerically, as compared to the raw stats?


Oh something else, dragon's redesign also exacerbated snowballing. The old value of dragon use to be a flat amount of gold, which because it's flat, would proportionally benefit the team behind more than the team ahead. Yet after the change, because almost every effect is based on %, either % AD/AP, % Damage, or % Regen, the effect is that while you might see a let's say 10% increase in offensive team power from picking up a fire dragon, the team that's invested 5000g into AD/AP would see an effective 500g from taking the dragon, where as the losing team which has only invested 4000g in AD/AP would only an effective 400g from taking a larger risk while behind to take dragon. Riot got all of their incentives backwards, higher risk of taking dragon correlated with a lower reward from it...

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Stupidly ironic isn't it; pros play defensively because a mistake costs them the game, so riot ups the ante, so pros play even more carefully, ext.

Leonerdo10 votes

Not a bad post. But I just want to point out that split-pushing is one of the few things that gives top-laners agency, that the other lanes don't have. Thus, it seems unwise to complain about paper towers.

But maybe that is a leap of logic, involving too many assumptions.

GayFluffyUnicorn11 votes

Paper towers don't matter when everything riot does makes it harder to splitpush. U usually splitpush when you cant win teamfights/are too behind. Which means enemy minions push harder, which means you always have waves stacked against you. Baron empowered recall, dozens of MS mechanics, homeguards are all things that make it hard to meaningfully splitpush or force objective trades

Leonerdo1 votes

Unless you are saying that splitpushing is dead already, I think my point stands.

H1 H0w are Ya9 votes

Very Well Written. I agree

Bouncemaster Zac6 votes

Don't forget 20 second death timers at the 5 minute mark.

Karfuss5 votes

Needs to be an all around stat squish IMHO. There is far too much damage and tankiness in the game, and turrets are the real victims of it all. Despite the few outliers, the problem stems from items and runes, rather than specific champions being broken.

Demolish was just an awful idea that in its current incarnation should either not exist, or be rivalling other keystones. Cooldown Reduction doesn't need to be on every single item ever. Mana is just not a resource after one item. ADCs are getting way, WAY too much value out of crit (though they always have). Tanks are doing far too much damage combined with how hard they are to kill and their CC, do they all need %health damage or health scaling abilities?

Spoofghoul4 votes

fully agree

It's time we start stripping some power

for AD my changes would be easy

item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 no longer grant armorpen and become utility AD items like giant slayer working vs monsters and structures for example or opting into grievous wounds on attack ofc not 5 fucking years since your enemy hasn't got agency over it

Crit has vastly reduced damage +25% instead of 100% but ignores 30% of bonus armor now as for item 3031 it's passive makes crits 50% stronger resulting in slightly more damage +37,5% and also more bonus armorpen 45%

This makes critbuilds naturally strong vs high armor builds and it scales up as the game progresses This forces a decision of dealing heavy dmg vs squishies or vs tanks or going for an all round middle ground build

item 3071 armor shred would now scale with bonus health to prevent abuse, to compensate it could gain some flat pen perhaps since it would take more time to scale up making it a good fighter juggernaut item

I would also make tenacity work vs knockups or perhaps add items/runes which make you more resilient vs displacements

I would also re balance movement steroids and base movement

If a ranged champion mage or marksman's weakness is getting into their face then they should not have more mobility then everyone else item 3100 item 3285 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 item 3085

There are more things wrong imho but the list would get rather long

A few other things i would like to see is less spammable %damage for tanks just replace it with better ratio's or flat damage so theya ctually have to grab damage items to deal damage

Supports should be more oriented towards supporting other classes as well

I would change up herald and baron too, baron spawns a bit later and there will be 3 herald spawns each giving a defensive buff to champions and structures with only the final 3th herald dropping the eye so you have to kill it 3 times or no eye gets dropped would make toplane a bit more worth

i would also give all turrets a small armor/mr buff + 15 and a small amount of regen 1 + 1% missing hp per second that way they are a little harder to kill and it also rewards defending your turret

Anyway thats my 2 cents

Cavesloth1 votes

{quoted}

fully agree

It's time we start stripping some power

for AD my changes would be easy

item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 no longer grant armorpen and become utility AD items like giant slayer working vs monsters and structures for example or opting into grievous wounds on attack ofc not 5 fucking years since your enemy hasn't got agency over it

Crit has vastly reduced damage +25% instead of 100% but ignores 30% of bonus armor now as for item 3031 it's passive makes crits 50% stronger resulting in slightly more damage +37,5% and also more bonus armorpen 45%

This makes critbuilds naturally strong vs high armor builds and it scales up as the game progresses This forces a decision of dealing heavy dmg vs squishies or vs tanks or going for an all round middle ground build

item 3071 armor shred would now scale with bonus health to prevent abuse, to compensate it could gain some flat pen perhaps since it would take more time to scale up making it a good fighter juggernaut item

I would also make tenacity work vs knockups or perhaps add items/runes which make you more resilient vs displacements

I would also re balance movement steroids and base movement

If a ranged champion mage or marksman's weakness is getting into their face then they should not have more mobility then everyone else item 3100 item 3285 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 item 3085

There are more things wrong imho but the list would get rather long

A few other things i would like to see is less spammable %damage for tanks just replace it with better ratio's or flat damage so theya ctually have to grab damage items to deal damage

Supports should be more oriented towards supporting other classes as well

I would change up herald and baron too, baron spawns a bit later and there will be 3 herald spawns each giving a defensive buff to champions and structures with only the final 3th herald dropping the eye so you have to kill it 3 times or no eye gets dropped would make toplane a bit more worth

i would also give all turrets a small armor/mr buff + 15 and a small amount of regen 1 + 1% missing hp per second that way they are a little harder to kill and it also rewards defending your turret

Anyway thats my 2 cents

I agree with nerfing crit, but there isn't much point in nerfing the adc armor pen items since they hardly build them anymore because they do so much damage they no longer need them. If you nerfed Crit, maybe they'd have to build them again and then check on those later.

My Heartshaker4 votes

What is people's obsession with top lane? Downvote me all you want, but Champion diversity in top lane is actually more diverse than it's ever been (god forbid the past few top metas of maokai/gnar/shen only, it was so boring to watch and play against.)

The meta is better than it has been through the entirety of season 7. Obviously there are some champions that feel underwhelming (e.g. Renekton, Darius) because they have no decent keystone, but some champions will ALWAYS feel underwhelming, that is normal. A lot of bruisers/carry champions are actually very strong right now (GP, Camille, Jax, Fiora, Jayce, Gnar, Akali (just SoloQ), Sion, Vlad, Nasus etc.) while tanks are also in a decent spot (Ornn, Maokai, Chogath, Shen).

Granted I think there should be a keystone for bruisers, or at least some changes made to some of the champions but that doesn't mean top lane is in a terrible state as it is, you've got more diversity than previous seasons of only a trifecta of champions being viable top lane. As for first turrets, it's actually in very few cases that top lane turret goes faster than bot lane turret.

Sorry, but I just don't see the complaint.

kagepaladin8 votes

The overlying issue is you are forced to play a tank if you don't you will get out dps'd by assassins with lethality or burst down by an adc that has a lifesteal item and a support providing 1-3 different heals a shield and C.C. (im counting redemption in here as a source of healing. aforementioned supports are taric janna and soraka) it just makes it antifun to play top lane specially if you don't get any ganks cause you're jungler camps bot side and mid since it has alot better objectives and a weaker tower. the game just turns into a ticklefight for the first 20 minutes barring you getting ganked by enemy jungler or you tp'ing to another lane to assist.

My Heartshaker2 votes

{quoted}

The overlying issue is you are forced to play a tank if you don't you will get out dps'd by assassins with lethality or burst down by an adc that has a lifesteal item and a support providing 1-3 different heals a shield and C.C. (im counting redemption in here as a source of healing. aforementioned supports are taric janna and soraka) it just makes it antifun to play top lane specially if you don't get any ganks cause you're jungler camps bot side and mid since it has alot better objectives and a weaker tower. the game just turns into a ticklefight for the first 20 minutes barring you getting ganked by enemy jungler or you tp'ing to another lane to assist.

Why are you forced to play a tank? Current meta in both soloq and competitive indicate otherwise, top lane has some of the highest diversity right now (which can be a problem), tanks aren't dominating top at all. You've actually got a wide range of bruisers and carries as well as your staple tanks.

Sorry for breaking the circlejerk, but I'm actually somewhat enjoying playing top lane.

Stand Alone Wolf1 votes

{quoted}

The overlying issue is you are forced to play a tank if you don't you will get out dps'd by assassins with lethality or burst down by an adc that has a lifesteal item and a support providing 1-3 different heals a shield and C.C. (im counting redemption in here as a source of healing. aforementioned supports are taric janna and soraka) it just makes it antifun to play top lane specially if you don't get any ganks cause you're jungler camps bot side and mid since it has alot better objectives and a weaker tower. the game just turns into a ticklefight for the first 20 minutes barring you getting ganked by enemy jungler or you tp'ing to another lane to assist.

What good's playing a tank when the ADC can delete you in slow-motion?

FCJAAAAGOOOO3 votes

How about JUST nerfing IE for ranged? 35% bonus damage on crits instead of 50%. They literally all build it right now.

The Goodest Boy3 votes

A huge commendation on this post. Well put together, well argued and excellent points. +1 because this needs to be seen by as many people as possible.

As time draws on I become less and less hopeful for riot to act itelligently in regards to the state of the game. It's so, so very saddening to see what the game is becoming...

LostFr0st3 votes

I'm a bit surprised Baron/Rift Recall and Homeguards didn't make it into the discussion.

Back in the day, splitpush was viable since threatening an objective would lead to the enemy team needing to make a conscious choice for the next 20-30 seconds.

Now there is no need. Just shred the baron and enhanced recall. Can even opt to fight and then send one back to still make it there post-fight since Homeguards will get them there in time to stop the split. It makes the map a lot smaller.

OMGSoAnnoying3 votes

I agree 100% with the whole top lane agency bit. It seems that unless I absolutely destroy my lane and get above and beyond fed, come 25 mins I'm useless unless I'm playing a straight tank -- in which case i become useless at 30 mins except to be a lifesteal bag for the other team's bot laner. It doesn't seem to matter what champ I play. Tank, jugg, fighter, doesn't matter.

It's making the game not fun to play.

DragonShea3 votes

Yorickitem 3513 Hehehe, you said death itself.

But yeah. Its true that leaving top lane unless you are fed or have your pushed the minion wave far into the last top tower. It's gonna be a bad Idea to leave top lane, sometimes there are retard pushers/bot pusher that are gonna mindlessly push top and get killed if the team have the brain capacity to stop him.

Personally as a top laner myself, I see top lane as a place where two champs duke it out to see how can come out on top(no pun intended) so they can roam or assist their teammates and should have a specific fighting style based on their role and scaling.

Tanks should be able to shall and farm. Bruisers should focus on farming and trades Snowbally champs should seek to trade to score a kill or free farm from bullying their opponent out of the lane.

What each top laner should contribute to the team:

A frontline, be it tanky or semi-tanky. they should be the ones that get into the thick of things and mange to get into the center of a teamfight. Offensive or defensive power. with Bruiser(Fighters+skirmishers), Battle Mages being the figurative sword of the team and Tanks being the shield. Spit-pushing and dueling power. They should be good duelists by default in order to manage to fight well in an isolated lane. Good to decent peel for themselves and others: They should be able to peel well if they are tanks and survive engages from the enemy and be able to last long during a prolonged trade.

Finally I'd say the best way for a tank to carry a team is to secure kills for the team and ensure that the assists they get will gives them a gold/item advantage while bruisers and battle mages should seek to pressure lanes and assist in teamfights or skirmishes.

just my idea of what top lane should based on my own experience.

Lil Homie busta2 votes

Rioters? Where you guys are? This is the perfect post to discuss and explain stuff for us, the pissed top-laners.

H00KIE2 votes

I know my account is new-ish but I played a long while ago on an old account and the jungle thing is so true. I usually play kindred if I'm jungle cause I don't want to be 'that guy' like described in the OP and gank all day. The top being useless thing is true too i think

Lil Homie busta2 votes

Such a well written post. Yet, not even a sign of rioters.

Don't complain later if the boards start to making shit posts every day. You guys deserve it.

TEA Nietzsche 2 votes

Everything-Creeping: It's no secret we've had a serious CDR/Mobility/CC/Damage

*tankyness

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

Makes sense except the jungle part, that is an issue in every lane and especially bot where if your mid fucks up and loses lane you can expect a 4-5 man dive followed by a "I pinged" from your team.

LongHair Fox1 votes

Nerfing crit will only reduce snowball from adc's. Sure that is something but it is not the reason top lane is in a bad state. It just means that they take longer time to die. If you want to improve the impact of toplane make it more volitile and snowbally. If the game can be decided by which top laner smashes the other junglers will be forced to up there to make sure his toplaner is not getting smashed or trying to smash the other toplaner. By making it more snowbally you also increase the amount of times that an out of control toplaner takes over the game. The easiest way to do that is likely making bruiers more common as they are snowbally by nature and nerfing the early tankiness of tanks so they cannot expect to sit in lane and do nothing.

Terozu1 votes

Bruisers are not a thing.

Captain lnting1 votes

https://www.twitch.tv/morumora Feel free to int in stream #LolDeathToFrendships

xelaker1 votes

I get the top lane blues, but technically at the same time the other top lane is benefiting from all the changes right? the arguments on the board always come from the loser side, and very rarely from the winner. Nobody cares about the crazy damage when they are doing it...

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Riot has openly admitted a few years ago that they hated turtling to late game, too bad they didn't use the beta as it's name sake before shoving their mentality on everyone; it's no wonder morale has fallen off a cliff in the past year.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

I feel like you contradict yourself in the beginning with the towers a bit, you establish that towers are easy to take and therefore are punishing to leave alone(never mind that demolish scales with health and is only especially effective when used with champs that don't already have high impact on towers) but once u take a tower by that logic u can't rotate to take another because your tower will be taken just as easily in return which negates what you said about bouncing back.

If you let the enemy take down 3 towers down to your inhibitor with a rift herald without sending someone to stop him then you deserve to lose that inhibitor.

Your talk of "creep" is so vague that I don't even know where to begin

I do agree that there are a few oppressive tanks top with some gnarly base damage on their abilities paired with cc that make it hard for bruisers to compete early no argument here, and bot lane is stacked just as a matter of fact no argument here either

You completely contradict yourself here in the "The jungle and top lane" section because you outline how top is a lonely lane. how rift is barely an incentive to play around top. and how juicy bot is in comparison then say how top is camped. And how all a jungler really needs to do is take buffs and camp with no setback, but in reality if you are camping top you are putting yourself behind in farm and the enemy jungler is likely to take note of your presence top and snake your bot side farm.

In agency you say that ad carries have multiple avenues of bypassing resistances, and maybe I am just mistaken by what you mean by this but the resistance to ad is armor and the only armor bypass that an ad carry has access to is last whisper items and legality and an ad who builds lethality is using up a spot they could be using for a far more useful crit item.

You say that a jungler can assist in a "map-wide snowball" and still be useful later if that is true of both junglers don't both teams have an equal chance of receiving said assistance?

And to address the top's agency in the game I feel like you are removing the agency from anything that isn't the subject matter like you will treat one top laner as inanimate food and the other jungler that is camping is someone at a buffet, when in reality the other jungler has just as much opportunity to counter gank or counter jungle or camp a different lane with little interference.

EinarUlfar1 votes

Minions are altered to push harder for the Winning Team, meaning taking a tower grants the ability to more easily maintain pressure in a lane right away. So no, I'm not contradicting myself in the first section. It's easy to open a window for rotations if you gain that lead, or a "snowball", if you will.

Agreed on the deserving to lose an inhib; the point here is in Solo Queue, getting the manpower needed to stop this snowball isn't always feasible.

My talk of creep isn't vague, especially if you've been following the Balance changes from Season 6 onward. To provide you with an example, in 6.22 we were given the Assassin overhaul. Atop this, we received the Duskblade rework - allowing AD Assassins to dish out the burst they had prior to their overhaul and arguably even more. However, we also received the Ardent buff this patch; creeping Sustain/Shields either to mitigate this change or to usher us into a preferred meta. If you carefully follow the changes made throughout the previous seasons, you'll frequently see where something is heavily buffed (beyond what's necessary) in response to a change. Thereby introducing an increase in power, and if it's not handled by a direct decrease in power and rather an alteration elsewhere - it introduces new problems and is often (when handled by Riot) done in the manner of increasing numbers or decreasing cooldowns.

My sentiment that Top is a Lonely lane is a nod to a few things. One, Top is losing players due to the state of some Tanks and the inability for Bruisers to compete (as you kindly pointed out). Two, Top isn't getting attention from Riot -- or at least, wasn't, and Bruisers were outright neglected in Runes Reforged. I didn't mean it was literally a lane with few people. Given how the EXP has changed, Smite changed to offer health, and how damage/stats sit with S8 now - Junglers don't HAVE to worry about their farm (a few Junglers aside, like Shyvana). Majority can literally camp a lane over and over whilst farming nothing but any buffs on the map, because the snowball can become unbearable and their scaling (exp, stats, buffs, items all contribute) isn't harmed enough to remove them as a solid contributing factor in the midgame despite their neglect of JUNGLE FARMING.

In Agency, regarding AD Carries, I'm referring to a few things. They have the option to buy Lethality to bypass armor. They have an item that allows them to shred Health% of (more or less) tanks. They've the option of Crit, on top of having a Crit-Amplifier, on top of having a Crit-synergizing-Range-increasing (RFC) item that allows them to FROM AFAR deal AoE Magic damage. Their options arguably wouldn't be a massive deal were it not for their item builds are very cheap and bring massive resistance-bypassing BURST (Think Vayne vs Tank, but apply it to most ADCs now).

Yes, both teams do have an equal chance of NOT receiving said assistance as well - in the same manner both teams have a chance to get an AFK. Neither are chances we WANT to take, and overall it lessens OUR agency that these Overly-Capable-Junglers can consistently disrupt Laning Phase without having to face a serious drawback.

You refer to the Agency of Top in such a way that implies I'm ignoring both sides have equal opportunity; that's deviating from MY point. My point is that we're in a game with potentially 9 random people, and that TOO MUCH is coming from sources outside of Lane without those sources having to suffer or take a detriment in any significant way anymore.

TL;DR: Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but even where I was - you merely missed my point. I appreciate the lengthy response, however.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

{quoted}

Minions are altered to push harder for the Winning Team, meaning taking a tower grants the ability to more easily maintain pressure in a lane right away. So no, I'm not contradicting myself in the first section. It's easy to open a window for rotations if you gain that lead, or a "snowball", if you will.

Agreed on the deserving to lose an inhib; the point here is in Solo Queue, getting the manpower needed to stop this snowball isn't always feasible.

My talk of creep isn't vague, especially if you've been following the Balance changes from Season 6 onward. To provide you with an example, in 6.22 we were given the Assassin overhaul. Atop this, we received the Duskblade rework - allowing AD Assassins to dish out the burst they had prior to their overhaul and arguably even more. However, we also received the Ardent buff this patch; creeping Sustain/Shields either to mitigate this change or to usher us into a preferred meta. If you carefully follow the changes made throughout the previous seasons, you'll frequently see where something is heavily buffed (beyond what's necessary) in response to a change. Thereby introducing an increase in power, and if it's not handled by a direct decrease in power and rather an alteration elsewhere - it introduces new problems and is often (when handled by Riot) done in the manner of increasing numbers or decreasing cooldowns.

My sentiment that Top is a Lonely lane is a nod to a few things. One, Top is losing players due to the state of some Tanks and the inability for Bruisers to compete (as you kindly pointed out). Two, Top isn't getting attention from Riot -- or at least, wasn't, and Bruisers were outright neglected in Runes Reforged. I didn't mean it was literally a lane with few people. Given how the EXP has changed, Smite changed to offer health, and how damage/stats sit with S8 now - Junglers don't HAVE to worry about their farm (a few Junglers aside, like Shyvana). Majority can literally camp a lane over and over whilst farming nothing but any buffs on the map, because the snowball can become unbearable and their scaling (exp, stats, buffs, items all contribute) isn't harmed enough to remove them as a solid contributing factor in the midgame despite their neglect of JUNGLE FARMING.

In Agency, regarding AD Carries, I'm referring to a few things. They have the option to buy Lethality to bypass armor. They have an item that allows them to shred Health% of (more or less) tanks. They've the option of Crit, on top of having a Crit-Amplifier, on top of having a Crit-synergizing-Range-increasing (RFC) item that allows them to FROM AFAR deal AoE Magic damage. Their options arguably wouldn't be a massive deal were it not for their item builds are very cheap and bring massive resistance-bypassing BURST (Think Vayne vs Tank, but apply it to most ADCs now).

Yes, both teams do have an equal chance of NOT receiving said assistance as well - in the same manner both teams have a chance to get an AFK. Neither are chances we WANT to take, and overall it lessens OUR agency that these Overly-Capable-Junglers can consistently disrupt Laning Phase without having to face a serious drawback.

You refer to the Agency of Top in such a way that implies I'm ignoring both sides have equal opportunity; that's deviating from MY point. My point is that we're in a game with potentially 9 random people, and that TOO MUCH is coming from sources outside of Lane without those sources having to suffer or take a detriment in any significant way anymore.

TL;DR: Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but even where I was - you merely missed my point. I appreciate the lengthy response, however.

The Tower/vs minion issue are 2 separate things. You very plainly stated in the op that towers are so weak that they are easy to take down due to a number of different factors an because of this it is hard to come back. Then in the next line you say people are easily punished for leaving lane because again towers are so weak these are contradictory statements when you include the context of what a "snowball" game usually is.

As far as the minion issue goes the push you get for having more towers isn't even that huge when looked at in the big picture of sieges, the minion push is to ensure that, as a defending player you can still reach farm in lane without having to scavenge the jungle or over extend. In short the minion push is as much as a catch up mechanic as it is a snowball mechanic.

I will concede that Off the top of my head( or even if I thought hard about it) I can't really recall most changes, but I still maintain that in the op you are vague about the changes because you say "cc, mobility, damage, cdr..." basically all the stats and chalk it up to "creep" If you used an example like in your reply it would have been much better.

I guess I was on the different page with top lane comment you were referring to lonely as in design and player base and I thought you meant gameplay wise I'll take the L on that one.

Ok this I can't really get past, you say that a majority of junglers can scavenge buffs, camp top, and get by just on "snowball". Lets do the math on this Lets say a jungler gets a bot side leash, clears wolves then the opposite buff this puts them at lvl 3 with 12 cs I believe, ganks top, lets say it's successful for arguments sake and he relinquishes the kill to the laner to facilitate the snowball and then backs with about 17 cs, Blue buff wont be spawning for about 3 minutes by this time, lets say top tp back in and our jungler takes a trip to his favorite lane. Ganks him again before he can even get to the second wave but this time around he takes the kill ,whoops oh well what are you gonna do now our jungler has about 32 cs with that kill and maybe he taxes a bit 36 cs and lets say top hard shoves the rest of the wave to deny cs and backs. Blue buff spawns around this time pretty good right?, but even during all this about 11 waves have stalked down the lane 3 of them with cannons thats 69 cs lets take away about half of 2 waves for the good shoves after the early ganks so we're at 60, and lets say this guy sucks at last hitting we'll remove 2 minions from every wave(-22) thats 38 cs. So after this rotation just twice over you are not only already behind in general but behind the guy you are camping who can barely last hit over half his farm and lost a full wave to tower shoves. We could say this formula is working as it is putting this laner behind but it's also putting you behind and not to mention this formula is based on a guaranteed kill every time, with little room for error because if this poor sucker top manages to take one of his oppressors with him he will be taking some catch up xp with him not to mention in this scenario we've turned the ally jungler into nothing more than a farm bot.

As far as lethality goes any ad carry building it will fall off hard against tanks later in the game because it only offers flat armor resistance. and as far as the collection of crit items goes, they are all pretty much weak alone of course and item set that requires specific other items to be bought to be useful. Like yeah Shiv is a cheap item and so is Rfc and IE but none of these items are useful by themselves it's like building into 1 big item it's not like a Trin force where you can build it, have it be useful by itself, then wait and see if you feed or carry and decide if you want to be a tank or a damage dealer, Also in regards to the "Adc have the most resistance shredding" they also have the most cost efficient defenses in the game in the form of Ninja tabi and, randuin's omen(there are others like frostborn but they are a bit niche).

Np I quite enjoyed writing the lengthy response it's nice to be able to disagree with someone on the boards and talk about it without people trying to say I am objectively retarded or something like that

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