A suggestion to balance Garen and make him more rewarding to play and play against

Horse Grenades·Nov 14, 2018·1 votes·1,179 views

I think one of the big points of contention with laning against Garen is his burst on his Q and it's lack of counterplay and the inability to punish him with CC because of his W. Basically he Qs you E's away and goes back in when his Q is back up until he's whittled you away for an all-in ignite R kill.

I would suggest some kind of mechanic that rewards a Garen for staying on a single target with E.

Take some of the initial damage off of his Q and have it mark the target for increased magic damage on each tick of Garen's E if they are marked.

THe real downside to this change would be to make Garen's already linear kit even more linear with_ always _having to lead with Q

Just my opinion.

17 Comments

Moody PNov 14, 20184 votes

calling garen no counterplay is a good way to get laughed at

given that he's exclusively melee and heavily telegraphs his opening with the most delayed AA enhance in the game most champs can easily respond to his approach with their own damage before his silence goes through

the damage he does is reasonable for how limited he is.

Horse GrenadesNov 14, 20181 votes

You can laugh, I guess? You're taking my words out of context, I never said Garen had no counterplay. His Q mid trade with a silence to stop retaliation has no counterplay. It's telegraphed, but in CQC and during trades it's unavoidable and limits your ability to retaliate because of the silence. It's one of those frustrating abilities to play against, doesn't make the champion OP but does make it unfun.

Side note: Why do you always post on here hiding behind a level 7 account?

Horse GrenadesNov 14, 20182 votes

Also, his damage to a "villain" is unreasonable, and counter-intuitive. You should never be punished because of success.

He's also has the 4th highest winrate top lane in plat+ with the 9th highest play rate. Those are pretty substantial numbers in terms of a binary monstrosity that is Garen.

Moody PNov 14, 20182 votes

being a simple champion tends to higher winrates. garen is enjoying actual viability for the first time in years

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20181 votes

There's very few "non-simple" Champions in League.

Doge2020Nov 14, 20181 votes

Good argument, but one weak point is the win rate part. Even people in plat don’t really know how to team fight correctly and how to play against most champs. I would recommend using Diamond+ if you want to see how Garen truely does in and against a coordinated team.

But honestly Garen not getting picked at all in Worlds just shows how simple, predictable and easy he is to beat.

He dominates when people don’t understand how he works and he is very good at taking advantage of mistakes, but he absolutely sucks when the enemy team knows what to do in lane and in team fights. And believe me, as a Garen Main with mastery lvl 6 I can say for certain that the strengths I said are true and so are the weaknesses that I, and other people, have stated.

Phiddy CentNov 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Good argument, but one weak point is the win rate part. Even people in plat don’t really know how to team fight correctly and how to play against most champs. I would recommend using Diamond+ if you want to see how Garen truely does in and against a coordinated team.

But honestly Garen not getting picked at all in Worlds just shows how simple, predictable and easy he is to beat.

He dominates when people don’t understand how he works and he is very good at taking advantage of mistakes, but he absolutely sucks when the enemy team knows what to do in lane and in team fights. And believe me, as a Garen Main with mastery lvl 6 I can say for certain that the strengths I said are true and so are the weaknesses that I, and other people, have stated.

If people in plat cant handle him, then 95% of the player base cant handle him. Very few people are in diamond and challenger

Doge2020Nov 15, 20181 votes

I meant that if you want to really see how he handles when he goes against a coordinated and skilled team then look at him in diamond+. I was talking about how Garen plays in a certain environment that is seen at high elo rather than the fuck fest that almost always happens in Bronze, Silver, sometimes Gold, and even Plat.

Yes a lot of people can’t handle him, but that is because they either just plain don’t know how to, refuse to learn how to and complain, or make the same mistakes over and over that gets them beat up by a garen and they don’t take the time to understand why.

Yes people in plat are more skilled than those in gold or silver, but they are in plat for a reason, they make mistakes too. They just make a few more than those who really know how to play the game.

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20181 votes

Where I would disagree with you is that him not being picked in worlds indicates that to a coordinated team he is useless. I would bet money his winrate is lower in flex than in solo/duo. If 90% of the player base struggle against him, that's poor design.

Doge2020Nov 15, 20181 votes

Ain’t nothing else I can say now than just “get gud lul”. He is in a reasonable spot with good enough damage that is acceptable because he is full melee and has almost no way to catch a target besides flash, q, ghost and other MS boosts. He struggles very hard to reach targets when a coordinated team keeps him locked down and/or away from their team.

Low elo people struggle against him because he is a good lane bully against them with grasp and can snowball a lead very well when ahead of a low elo player.

Sure if 90% of the player base struggled against him it might be poor design, but that reason is only acceptable if 100% of the player base has the exact same game knowledge. But sadly that isn’t true, some people know more than other about how to play against garen, and some people don’t. It’s just that the people who don’t know are most likely gonna lose against him a lot until they learn how to play against him. It’s the same with every single champ in this game and every other game, if you don’t know the factors of the game then you have a very low chance of winning the match.

If those same 90% of the player base learned everything the game has to offer, got on the same skill lvl as the other 10%, then they still lose to Garen then I will accept that his design is truely flawed.

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20181 votes

I don’t struggle against him.... I want it to be more rewarding to play as and against Garen. I’ve already clearly explained why I think his villain passive is bullshit, and why I want to reward Garen for staying on a target and not just Qing and using his decaying movement speed to escape any significant trade (which he would recover with his passive)

I’ve been hard stuck plat 2 and 3 for multiple seasons and 2 of those seasons being a top laner. I know I need to “git gud lol” but I have no issues playing against Garen except how unfunnthe lane is

Doge2020Nov 14, 20181 votes

Sorry for the multiple comments.

His Villain mechanic is rewarding enough to play with and play against, the Garen has to stay near the target and get them low enough to execute with R while the enemy team has to keep him away from the squishy or the Villain target.

The reward for Garen for successfully using his R is that he gets a guaranteed shutdown that will help his team win/get even or help his team close the game easier by getting rid of a key enemy champs. While it is rewarding for the enemy team when they keep garen away from the villain, their team doesn’t give a big shut down to Garen, and they keep their carry (most likely the one with the most kills) alive to take turrets and other objectives.

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20181 votes

I disagree. It's not rewarding as or against Garen.

If you're unlucky enough for your frontline to be the villain your fk'd because he's about to get True Damage popped and if you're Garen it feels shitty if the person you need to be the villain isn't.

It's a gimmick that rewards Garen for someone who isn't Garen doing well.

Critmaster GarenNov 14, 20183 votes

this is exactly the same as just reducing some damage on his q and increasing the isolation damage on his spin.

i dont see how this is neccessary though. they already shaved 20 damage off his q.

Horse GrenadesNov 14, 20181 votes

I agree. Just trying to help make it less frustrating to lane against the monstrous stat stick. I don't think he's OP just unfun

mack9112Nov 14, 20183 votes

Garen is one of those champions that heavily counters particular champions while heavily struggles against others. I don't really think you can tune that out of his kit.

Horse GrenadesNov 14, 20181 votes

True. Similar to Darius or Renekton he has REALLY good matchups and REALLY bad matchups. I'm not a fan of that kind of gameplay, but I think it's bound to happen with such a large number of champions