Reached a Point Where Mobility & Inflated Kits are Ruining The Game For Me

Deathfall·Jul 21, 2018·78 votes·15,730 views

With so much going on and the fact that it is no longer about skill and how well you play your champion, the fun and whimsy of this game is just gone. It is just getting worse for me with all these new champions that can go invisible, jump over walls and just do everything in their power to get out of a play, because they clicked one skill that allowed them to get away. It just feels like a hindrance to play champions that don't have mobility on them and have almost the entire game working against them. What's the point in playing the game anymore? They'll just create a new champion or VGU champion that can jump over walls.

74 Comments

Teridax68Jul 21, 201852 votes

What's disappointed me in League's recent developments is the death of its strategic and tactical gameplay. There was a point in time where mechanics weren't everything in an average match, and where there was a good amount of room for players to develop and execute strategies, or make interesting tactical choices over the course of a fight. I personally chose to main jungle precisely because I was more interested in tactics and strategy over split-second mechanical execution. At this point, though, fights are way too short for tactical gameplay to make a real appearance, and games themselves are so snowbally that any interesting strategy quickly boils down to something much more repetitive and less interesting either way.

A lot of this has to do with a very large bias towards mechanically demanding kits over practically everything else, with so many variations upon the same combo and ability that there's way too much overlap already between different champions and their playstyles. By contrast, very little is done to encourage other forms of gameplay, and this lack of focus shows when Riot does try to create more tactical champions, namely juggernauts (e.g. Illaoi, whose design continues to be a flop). Not only does this restrict diversity of gameplay in League, it's also harmful to champions who were designed prior to this transition. Many reworks we've had took kits that were perfectly serviceable, and redid them with far too much of a focus on mechanical play, sometimes to the point of replacing the champion entirely because of it. It's a state of transition that has harmed League in many different ways, first by alienating its former core playerbase, but also by creating an extremely unstable and uneven balancing environment late into its development process, one that would still need years' worth of reworks and overhauls to bring to whichever desired endpoint the developers have in mind (assuming they don't change in direction again halfway through).

oortoomeebreesuuJul 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

A lot of this has to do with a very large bias towards mechanically demanding kits over practically everything else... it's also harmful to champions who were designed prior to this transition.

ah, somebody said what i was going to say

deadlychuckJul 21, 20183 votes

It also alienates anyone who has a preference for the designs of that prior style.

Kurt HyzanJul 21, 201810 votes

Ah shit didn't see your comment lol. Well you literally wrote what I'm 100% thinking on what this game turned into. Glad I'm not the only one, I'm not here to play street fighter or mortal kombat, I'm here to play a MOBA

KhelbJul 21, 20182 votes

I'm not here to play street fighter or mortal kombat

I laughed pretty good at this...then had a little weep. :(

swimcris111Jul 21, 201810 votes

Yep, now it's just "muh assassin LC$ outplay by flashing/dashing 20 times and one shotting you in under a second!" which apparently takes skill and is fun to play/watch/play against.

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20183 votes

Still waiting for this meme to die since assassins see next to no play in competitive, but hey we can keep pretending they do.

Crescent DuskJul 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehiuPpiR,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2018-07-22T02:57:40.590+0000)

Still waiting for this meme to die since assassins see next to no play in competitive, but hey we can keep pretending they do.

It's so much fun to play as Talon and get bumrushed by Shen or Blitzcrank in every teamfight and once a mage builds Zhonyas my only target is an ADC who I hope hasn't built GA because the moment you go in you blow up.

Only Zed really gets to poke from range until it's actually safe to go in for the kill and then he gets a free port out.. The rest of the assassins don't get a get out of jail free card with the only other close one being Ekko (but if he uses it to escape then he has no damage period as his E can't carry enough damage in a TF).

iamsmurfing0101Jul 22, 20181 votes

everyone is assassin , so therefore they see 100% play in competitive. There is so much damage and cancer kits in the game that everyone is assassinating you.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 22, 20181 votes

No the real skill and strategy in league apparently is to afk farm for 15 minutes as adc, W jump into three enemies as tristana and just kill all of them. Praise be rito the braindead no skill playstyle is coming back thanks to reddit. No more pesky mechanics and actual micro gameplay. Back to everyone ganking bot because if the adc gets a zeal the game is over.

Crescent DuskJul 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No the real skill and strategy in league apparently is to afk farm for 15 minutes as adc, W jump into three enemies as tristana and just kill all of them. Praise be rito the braindead no skill playstyle is coming back thanks to reddit. No more pesky mechanics and actual micro gameplay. Back to everyone ganking bot because if the adc gets a zeal the game is over.

Everyone already ganks bot because bot lane still wins the game 90% of the time, the other 10% being a fed bruiser top lane.

How can you not expect bot lane to determine the fate of the game when it contains 2 players total and 2 players getting ahead is better than 1 player getting ahead?

SennaFirstPickJul 21, 20182 votes

they once tried to switch it up with ivern, sadly he was released in a bad time and incenser ruined his whole playstyle and turned him into another support for that kog maw

cocacolalipsJul 21, 20181 votes

Meanwhile in high elo

SKT Faker: "I had thought that individual performance was the most important. However, nowadays, it's a lot more strategical -- there is a lot more to think about."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/904qe1/skt_faker_i_had_thought_that_individual/

You being unable to see the strategical aspect of the game doesn't mean it's not there, it only means you need to improve.

Scuttle Crabs, Dragons, Herald, Baron, pathing with the new plants, vision shenanigans with normal wards vs control wards vs oracle lens, lane priority, rotations, early game dominance, late game dominance, item powerspike, level powerspike, 1-3-1 vs 4-1 vs 5, the new pick/ban phase... the game has definitely become more complex.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20183 votes

Okay, but that is only at the very highest level of play. Pro players can focus on strategy because they're an organized team who spend practically their entire waking life training to work with each other and communicate with each other on voice chat. Additionally, these players have spent so much time practicing their champions that there is no real mechanical gameplay to speak off -- pros have so much muscle memory tied to landing abilities perfectly that they have reached the pinnacle of mastery of their champion's mechanics, and so don't really have to deal with the process of unreliability and learning that the near-totality of other players do. This is a very different environment from the one the average player faces, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to group together and train like monks to begin experiencing League's strategy.

It's also worth mentioning that pro play also has strategy because it revolves heavily around exploiting the meta and reacting to popular pro strategies that emerge -- this is why Korean pro players spend so much time theorycrafting, because it's all about taking the game's different factors and developing an optimal strategy. Once that strategy is found, however, it quickly devolves, as pro play shows how repetitive it can get once pros solves the game's complexity. LCS is notorious for rapidly falling into solved and stagnant metagames, which is why Riot puts so much effort into disrupting it every few patches. There's certainly a lot of complexity to League, because there are a lot of moving parts, but in the end there's not that much depth, not even for the game-within-a-game that pros play and normal players don't. Literally any game can have a strategic component past a high enough mastery level, e.g. Call of Duty, but that does not make that game strategic, nor does it make that strategy game deep by default.

cocacolalipsJul 22, 20181 votes

You must have missed the 2nd paragraph where I said the game became more complex. I didn't say the game was super deep, I said the game had some strategy before and has more strategy now, and backed it up with examples why is that and a recent discussion around high elo players. For a low elo player, the game has always been simple because they don't know what they are doing, but if you improve your macro you'll climb quickly to at least low diamond. And that's the difference between a bad player and a good one, the good player plays the game strategically, the bad one doesn't.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20184 votes

You must have missed my last paragraph, where I noted that while League has become more complex over time, that complexity has not translated to an appreciable increase in depth (in fact, quite the opposite). Just so we're clear, complexity is the information overhead one has to know to understand something, whereas depth in this case is the amount of meaningful choices available to the player. Strategy is based on depth, not complexity, and while any amount of depth to a game carries a complexity cost, League's increases in complexity have unfortunately been accompanied by decreases in depth. Look at how the changes to Scuttle or Rift Herald, for example, suddenly caused competitive teams to totally reorient themselves around those objectives at the time of change, then quickly stagnate afterwards once an optimal strategy had been found. The same can be seen now with gold funneling, and was seen before with the Baron rush strats. There's a lot of stuff to memorize in League, but that doesn't really count for much when the game's balance swings so harshly that there ends up being only one meaningful factor to focus on, or some other small number.

It's easy to dismiss this as a bad/good player dichotomy, but the reality is that even Diamond players have complained about this kind of issue. Look at people like Dyrus or Apdo criticizing the game's stagnancy at higher levels, and general lack of strategy even at high elos. For sure, there are many ways to improve, and team cooperation plays a more important part at higher brackets, but that is far too basic to be properly called strategy. If you look at games like Dota 2, HotS, even TF2, these games allow even pubs to elaborate and enact diverse strategies on the fly, whereas in League, even Plat players sometimes don't know how to ward or check the minimap properly. Strategy is simply no longer a part of League to the vast majority of its playerbase, no matter which elitist separation you choose, so it is accurate to say that strategic and tactical gameplay in League has declined.

cocacolalipsJul 22, 20181 votes

You started your first comment with:

What's disappointed me in League's recent developments is the death of its strategic and tactical gameplay.

which is clearly wrong and I replied to that. The game is more strategic and tactical than ever.

You also said both strategy and action or macro and micro didn't quite evolve at the same pace, and I can agree with that, but that's not the same thing. Strategy and action aren't mutually exclusive, you can have both within the same game (see sports, football, basketball, hockey etc..).

The micro gameplay was rather poor back then, it was easy for Riot to improve that aspect of the game so they did. The macro gameplay was a bit better, less work was needed, but they improved it anyway as well. If micro started at 1 and improved x4, then macro started at 2 improved x2, but both improved and the game is better than it used to be with a good balance between micro and macro, action and strategy.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You started your first comment with:

which is clearly wrong and I replied to that. The game is more strategic and tactical than ever.

Except, as I pointed out above, that is simply not the case. Your argument was that strategy still exists at the pro level, which does not answer my point in any capacity.

{quoted}

You also said both strategy and action or macro and micro didn't quite evolve at the same pace, and I can agree with that, but that's not the same thing. Strategy and action aren't mutually exclusive, you can have both within the same game (see sports, football, basketball, hockey etc..).

I agree, and I never said the opposite. My point here, however, is that League's focus on micro play has come to the detriment of its macro play, as almost every new champion is very clearly focused on mechanical mastery, rather than any major amount tactical or strategic gameplay.

{quoted}

The micro gameplay was rather poor back then, it was easy for Riot to improve that aspect of the game so they did. The macro gameplay was a bit better, less work was needed, but they improved it anyway as well. If micro started at 1 and improved x4, then macro started at 2 improved x2, but both improved and the game is better than it used to be with a good balance between micro and macro, action and strategy.

How exactly did they improve it, pray tell? Which new champions are macro-focused? How is League any deeper, concretely speaking, than it used to be three or four years back?

cocacolalipsJul 22, 20181 votes

A champion can't be macro focused, it's only one unit, you micro your unit around to make macro decisions, the game is macro focused, there is strategic depth to the game with all the long terms choices you make all the time before the game even starts all the way to the nexus exploding, be it a global objective to contest, team composition, team formation, rotations etc

The game is more strategic than before because Riot added more strategic elements than there used to be.

Back in season 1-2, you only had early game teams who took all the dragons and end game teams who fought for Baron and that's it. There was nothing more to it. Then Riot added the Herald, elemental Dragons, Elder Dragon, Scuttle crabs, plants, refined the vision system with oracle lens and control wards, improved the pick and ban phase, improved champion picks diversity, refined splitpushing allowing different team formations and more I'm forgetting, and all those additions offer interesting choices in the way you approach the game, Dragon vs Herald, elder Dragon vs Baron, top vs bottom, the importance of pick and ban order, 1-3-1 vs 4-1 vs 5 man formations and so on... Like Faker said, there is more things to consider now then there used to be.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

A champion can't be macro focused, it's only one unit, you micro your unit around to make macro decisions, the game is macro focused, there is strategic depth to the game with all the long terms choices you make all the time before the game even starts all the way to the nexus exploding, be it a global objective to contest, team composition, team formation, rotations etc

This fundamentally misunderstand what macro play even is. It is perfectly possible to have a single champion be macro-focused: look at characters like Abathur or Zagara in HotS, both of whom are almost purely macro-focused due to playing practically like RTS factions. These are champions who have plenty of tools to make a large, durable impact on the map, and who have plenty of options that enable long-term planning, rather than short-term reactions. This is ultimately what macro play is: tactical gameplay is about making interesting choices over the course of combat, which you can see in a champion like Warwick, and strategic gameplay is about making interesting choices that unfold over the course of a game. This is something all champions could participate in to some degree before, but that is no longer really the case, because the entire outcome of a match frequently ends up boiling down to single fights, which themselves are often decided by whoever lands the first hit.

{quoted}

The game is more strategic than before because Riot added more strategic elements than there used to be.

Again, this confuses depth with complexity. Adding more strategic elements does nothing to help if those strategic elements offer fewer total viable choices than the previous set, which is the case here.

{quoted}

Back in season 1-2, you only had early game teams who took all the dragons and end game teams who fought for Baron and that's it. There was nothing more to it. Then Riot added the Herald, elemental Dragons, Elder Dragon, Scuttle crabs, plants, refined the vision system with oracle lens and control wards, improved the pick and ban phase, improved champion picks diversity, refined splitpushing allowing different team formations and more I'm forgetting, and all those additions offer interesting choices in the way you approach the game, Dragon vs Herald, elder Dragon vs Baron, top vs bottom, the importance of pick and ban order, 1-3-1 vs 4-1 vs 5 man formations and so on... Like Faker said, there is more things to consider now then there used to be.

The very fact that both early- and late-game comps could coexist is something that has been completely unheard of in the past few seasons of League. Since Preseason 6, the metagame has been purely focused either on lane bullies, or hypercarries, but only one at a time, and with no room in-between. This is one of the reasons why the marksman itemization changes left so many champions unviable.

Moreover, Dragon vs Herald/Baron is a solved choice, one defined by how powerful those objectives are, and one that leads to no variation in strategy. By contrast, there was a time when non-elemental Dragon and Baron were both objectives that offered legitimate choice and variation, because they carried a sufficient balance of risk and reward that going for them was always a compelling choice, though never a mandatory one. Fast-forward to now, and Riot has repeatedly admitted to overtuning Baron and making it extremely easy to take down, because they no longer want the objective to be a raid boss, and instead want it to be an end-the-game button. It is this kind of shallow balancing that has caused strategy to die in League, so while there is definitely more stuff to factor in, that stuff ultimately boils down to a rote, incredibly rigid and poorly diverse metagame, one everyone follows to the letter until Riot is inevitably forced to disrupt everything again. This is not how things used to be.

cocacolalipsJul 22, 20181 votes

This fundamentally misunderstand what macro play even is

tactical gameplay = action = micro, I use all 3 words interchangeably because they pretty much mean the same thing, positioning, target selection, engaging, disengaging, hitting skillshots, avoiding skillshots, when to use what button etc, all this is part of the tactical combat or the action.

how you pilot your champion in the short term is micro or tactical gameplay or action, the action of piloting your champion in the pursuit of a long term goal is macro or strategic gameplay.

example:

I'm going to kill this master yi with my katarina so I can take the turret

I'm going to kill this master yi with my katarina > micro, the fight so I can take the turret > macro, the objective

I'm going to play the lane aggressively and push the minion wave so I can take that dragon with my jungler

I'm going to play the lane aggressively and push the minion wave > micro so I can take that dragon with my jungler > macro

It is perfectly possible to have a single champion be macro-focused

that's not possible in a real time game, you have to pilot your champion one way or another, and that is micro. if you are trying to gank a lane, or take an objective you are making a strategic decision or macro move, but you can do that with every champion in the game.

The very fact that both early- and late-game comps could coexist is something that has been completely unheard of in the past few seasons of League

lol... no it still happens every game, you make the conscious choice when you draft your champions, no champion is godlike at every point of the game, you have to decide if you want a champion that is good early game and has lane priority, or is good late game and has better scaling, and play more aggressively or more safely accordingly.

Moreover, Dragon vs Herald/Baron is a solved choice, one defined by how powerful those objectives are, and one that leads to no variation in strategy

No? Do I want to draft early game champions with lane priority so I can contest Dragon/Herald at all? If I do, do I draft a strong top lane champion or a strong bottom lane duo, or both? can I contest both? If not, which one do I contest? Which one benefits my team most? Which one benefits the enemy team most? If I'm a jungler, do I farm, contest an objective or gank? Do I go top or bot side of the jungle? Which lane is winning? Which lane is warded? Which lane recalled? etc.. All those are medium to long terms decisions you have to make.

The word "solved" is only used pejoratively when it comes at the cost of making choices. If a champion is OP, then the game is solved because you want to pick that champion every game since it's the best way to win. Now if all champions are equally good, the game is also solved, but you still get to choose what champion you wanna play.

Red pill vs Blue pill, you know what each pill does hence the problem is solved, but it can be solved with you always taking the red pill if it's the better pill or you picking either pill depending on what you need. The former is bad for any game, the latter is fine.

incredibly rigid and poorly diverse metagame,

meanwhile, more unique champions are played every year in pro play, and we just had a resurgence of unique picks in the bottom lane...

you should start playing the game more and write on the forums less, you are kinda out of touch...

Teridax68Jul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

tactical gameplay = action = micro, I use all 3 words interchangeably because they pretty much mean the same thing, positioning, target selection, engaging, disengaging, hitting skillshots, avoiding skillshots, when to use what button etc, all this is part of the tactical combat or the action.

But that's not at all it. Mechanical gameplay is about executing mechanics, reacting within a split-second, and so on, whereas tactical gameplay occurs over a longer span of time, and is decision-based.

{quoted}

how you pilot your champion in the short term is micro or tactical gameplay or action, the action of piloting your champion in the pursuit of a long term goal is macro or strategic gameplay.

But as I said, the actual decision-making on how to pilot your champion in a fight has been reduced, as fights are shorter, and something as basic as deciding how to position in a fight is not generally held to be strategic gameplay. You can argue with yourself based on your own imaginary definitions of micro and macro play (notice how I used neither term in my first post here), but that is simply not what is being discussed.

{quoted}

lol... no it still happens every game, you make the conscious choice when you draft your champions, no champion is godlike at every point of the game, you have to decide if you want a champion that is good early game and has lane priority, or is good late game and has better scaling, and play more aggressively or more safely accordingly.

Do you actually play League? Have you been at all aware of how late-game marksmen have had trouble scaling precisely because games end too quickly? At no point did I say that all champions are godlike in every game, I'm saying that we're at a very clear stage where games end too quickly for late-game champions to express themselves, and this is right after a period of time where carries scaled far too quickly for others to matter. The focus on the early or late game in League right now is a hard either-or, whereas previously both carried a more equal amount of importance.

{quoted}

No? Do I want to draft early game champions with lane priority so I can contest Dragon/Herald at all? If I do, do I draft a strong top lane champion or a strong bottom lane duo, or both? can I contest both? If not, which one do I contest? Which one benefits my team most? Which one benefits the enemy team most? If I'm a jungler, do I farm, contest an objective or gank? Do I go top or bot side of the jungle? Which lane is winning? Which lane is warded? Which lane recalled? etc.. All those are medium to long terms decisions you have to make.

Except you will always want to draft champions able to contest Scuttle early, as well as Dragon/Herald, because late-game champions simply do not have the time to scale now. If you can get Baron, you always should. Pro players, or just high-elo players in general, are not so indecisive, as they know exactly what to follow in these situations (that is in fact a defining trait of higher elos). Just because you personally think there are valid choices at hand does not mean they are in practice, or to the vast majority of other players.

{quoted}

The word "solved" is only used pejoratively when it comes at the cost of making choices. If a champion is OP, then the game is solved because you want to pick that champion every game since it's the best way to win. Now if all champions are equally good, the game is also solved, but you still get to choose what champion you wanna play.

Yes, that is indeed why I used the expression here. The game is solved in a great deal many ways: its pro scene is solved. Runes Reforged builds are solved, itemization is solved, so there isn't actually that much independent choice to be made. I have no idea why one would bring red and blue pills here, particularly since the choice between those are notoriously at the core of _un_solved philosophical debates. What exactly was your point here?

{quoted}

meanwhile, more unique champions are played every year in pro play, and we just had a resurgence of unique picks in the bottom lane...

... in exchange for many more champions, who've fallen out of viability completely. Again, pro players like Apdo have pointed out themselves that the difference between god-tier and average champions is larger than ever before, as is the difference between average and trash-tier champions, and while bot lane has indeed begun including mages, it has done so at the exclusion of many marksmen, even though marksmen are still the dominant class there (especially at the pro level). Pro play is less diverse than before, both in picks and in strategies, and to try to claim otherwise is to show wilful ignorance on the matter.

{quoted}

you should start playing the game more and write on the forums less, you are kinda out of touch...

I was going to tell you the same thing. You post far more frequently than I do, yet your posts demonstrate complete ignorance of the game. Though your posts go off into many pretentious tangents, they nonetheless show a rather poor understanding of the concepts being argued. Meanwhile, you have exactly zero games on record. You are in no position to tell me what to do here, and in fact the more likely issue here is simply that you are projecting your own insecurities into this argument. You are disconnected from the game, and have shown that you don't even understand much of what we've been talking about. Come back with some real experience, and more substance to your arguments besides "well I personally don't feel this way, therefore everyone's just like me".

cocacolalipsJul 22, 20181 votes

rofl you are just trolling now, everything you said is flat out wrong... (and let's not talk about the bazillion insults and passive aggressive attacks lol) you don't like the game then don't play, it's simple, there is nothing wrong admitting you don't like the game anymore, you don't need to BS yourself believing it's worse or w/e, just don't play.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8qbqqn/with_132_of_141_champions_being_picked_so_far/

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/72lmiv/there_have_been_61_unique_champions_picked_in_the/

those are facts, not your random personal anecdotes.

the whole discussion is based on facts. either you bring facts like I did discussing how the game became a lot more strategic thanks to Riot constant improvements and new additions or you gtfo.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20181 votes

Except both those articles fail to mention that the near-totality of these champions were only picked once, or some equally small handful of times, and were quickly dropped in favor of a far more consistent (and smaller) subset of picks, as shown on any wiki. This is also ignoring the fact that one of the articles you showed was done immediately during Runes Reforged, which was intentionally designed to shake up the meta in the short-term. This discussion is based on facts, except these are facts you have attempted to go against with lies and intentional distortion of the truth. You are in no position to accuse me of insults or passive-aggression when you were the first to demonstrate both in this exchange, and your continued attempts to project your own problems onto this exchange have not benefited your credibility or your good faith. You have been proven wrong at every turn in this argument, yet you continue to dig yourself a deeper hole by trying to antagonize me. If you really believed in what you were saying, you wouldn't have to prove yourself so desperately... yet here we are. Still you continue to post, and still you continue to have exactly zero games played, despite telling me to "start playing the game more and write on the forums less". You should perhaps start taking your own advice, and stop embarassing yourself on here, as you have already done in copious amounts.

Teridax68Jul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

so the game is more diverse (facts) but you don't like it because it's following the runes reforged update (assumption on your part btw)? why kind of stupid reason is that, it's more diverse anyway LOL and it has been more diverse every year but in 2016.

Repeating your debunked claims does not make you any less wrong, and certainly does not make what you said any more factual. You are also very clearly misrepresenting my very simple argument: Runes Reforged was an update intentionally designed to shake up the game, and had that effect in the short-term (emphasis on short-term). During a very short period of time, at which point those measurements were made, diversity exploded because the meta hadn't been solved yet. A little over a month later, all of this diversity suddenly collapsed, because that game had been solved. This is what we were discussing earlier in this exchange, so don't pretend like this is a novel concept to you either. At the end of the day, diversity has only appeared in League during the brief periods of time after the developers enacted majorly disruptive updates; to say that this means League as a whole has become more diverse is like trying to say someone has a heartbeat because you keep applying electric shocks to their chest.

{quoted}

the game is more strategic (facts) but you don't like it either because? why again? you don't like the action part of the game?

I'm sorry, where exactly were you getting any of this? Which part of our exchange does this stem from? Once more, you are merely repeating yourself in a desperate attempt to ignore how everything you've just said has already been contradicted at length. Attempting to misrepresent me or my points does not change this fact.

{quoted}

it's an equally stupid fallacy, although there is nothing wrong not liking real time gameplay, but for god sake, go play something else if you hate the game this much, for your own sake, I'm not the one spending hours and days writing comments on the forum of a game I hate.

Except I don't hate this game, I care very much for it, which is why I offer my advice on how to help it. Blindly defending something at all cost does not benefit it, and it's clear you're not here because you love League, you're here because you have a point to prove, and want to pick fights with people. You are, in fact, the one spending hours and days writing comments on this forum here, instead of actually playing the game. Once again, I have pointed out several times how you keep accusing me of spending too much time on the forums, yet are guilty of the exact behavior you've been projecting onto me. If you want to keep embarassing yourself and coming across as a hypocrite, be my guest. Every reply you post here proves how much you value arguing with some random person on the internet over playing the game you claim to love.

Teridax68Aug 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

your behaviour is irrational hypocrite and borderline masochist and yes I wish the boards were less full of people like you and more full of people who actually enjoy the game and play it, having to skim through dozens of silly, negative discussions or rants before finding something relevant to the game is not fun and one of the reasons I don't visit the boards much

Then why are you visiting the Boards now? Why are you still trying to pick a fight you have lost ages ago? Accusing me of hypocrisy and masochism makes this all the more ironic, as it is your actions here that are self-contradictory, completely futile, and by your own account, exactly what you claim not to like.

{quoted}

if me showing you how ridiculous and irrational (that's funny you gotta admit) you are, simply throwing your own posts and activity back at you makes you reconsider your behaviour and maybe even stop posting all together on the boards so maybe who knows you can spend your free time doing something else you enjoy doing more, that would make both of us happy yes. if not, I tried.

I agree that this is indeed funny, though perhaps not for the reasons you might think. I think it's funny that you would try to point out how "ridiculous and irrational" I am while engaging in an utterly deranged pattern of personal attacks in a long-dead thread. I also think it's funny that you're trying to convince me engaging in expressly toxic behavior will somehow make the Boards a better place, or that it will convince me of anything. You're not convincing anyone of anything here, because ultimately your motives here are not honorable. You're not here on some grand mission to set me straight, you're just here on some personal vendetta because you saw that you didn't actually get the last word in an argument where you failed miserably, an argument where everyone else had long since moved on. Perhaps it is you who should take a break from the Boards, as your behavior here will get you nowhere nice.

cocacolalipsAug 15, 20181 votes

[deleted]

Teridax68Aug 15, 20181 votes

Meanwhile, 1 month later, I forgot completely about this exchange, yet you still seem to have held onto it enough to go all the way back to it, and post some personal attack. Your own post history is itself loaded, and is no less full of attempts to pick fights with people, or otherwise put other people down in an attempt to raise yourself up. And you say I'm the one who needs help?

cocacolalipsAug 15, 20181 votes

I clicked my board profile and the discussion was there because I don't post often lol, I didn't hold onto anything, I just had a quick look to see if I missed anything worth reading since the discussion about game design started by the OP was inherently interesting

also the boards are glitched, if a comments chain is too long you will start replying to yourself even though you didn't meant to, and the person you are replying to won't get a notification that you replied to them, hence I missed your last comment the last time

Teridax68Aug 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I clicked my board profile and the discussion was there because I don't post often lol, I didn't hold onto anything, I just had a quick look to see if I missed anything worth reading since the discussion about game design started by the OP was inherently interesting

also the boards are glitched, if a comments chain is too long you will start replying to yourself even though you didn't meant to, and the person you are replying to won't get a notification that you replied to them, hence I missed your last comment the last time

So, effectively, you still sorted through nearly a dozen comments to this precise exchange, which happened nearly a month ago, and instead of, say, deciding to leave a dead conversation be, you chose to go back to it with a comment that has since gotten deleted because of how crappy it was. Why, exactly? Again, there is no rational explanation for this kind of behavior other than pure, unhinged vindictiveness. You're not even adding to the conversation, you just threw out a personal attack and are now trying to justify your behavior.

AirKingNeoJul 22, 20183 votes

This is pretty much my argument for why people saying top lane splitpushers are generic/basic/no skill or whatever. They have strategic depth, and I enjoy that. I don't need mechanics. I want to think.

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 21, 201813 votes

Who would win?

Some mage Xerath Velkoz Zyra or some Trickster Grill Leblanc Zoe

La BelloJul 21, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehiuPpiR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-21T09:10:49.398+0000)

Who would win?

Some mage or some Trickster Grill

Zoe is immobile up UNTIL she begins casting summoners. then she becomes Barry Allen.

mrmeddymanJul 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehiuPpiR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-21T09:10:49.398+0000)

Who would win?

Some mage or some Trickster Grill

Doesn't make sense. The Trickster girls are also mages

Kurt HyzanJul 21, 201812 votes

Yeah, my thoughts on the game are like this : this game used to be like a real strategy game (like Civ / AoE), you know, not about personnal skill, but macro-play about the game enabling you to push / take objectives and know when to teamfights and when you musn't. Now it's all about champions themselves having flashy mechanics and buttons

It went from a strategy game to a fighting game, and I really dislike it

deadlychuckJul 21, 20186 votes

Well because the moba genre was heavily influenced by RTS and RPG elements, it use to heavily rely on the RTS elements to create strategic gameplay, but much like the MMORPG genre, they started to heavily shift towards action combat rather than role fulfillment.

Yet for some reason when i'd bring up this fact to people over the past couple of years on the boards, they'd be like "NO league is a moba not an RTS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Tutorial AsheJul 21, 20187 votes

I feel ya man. Game just isn't fun anymore imo.

I'd suggest giving League of Memories a look sometime. It's run by a small group of players that look to recreate the season 4 experience and more. Right now it's still in the early stages and there still some issues they're running into but that's to be expected.

It's something to look into because, honestly, I don't think Riot really knows what they're doing anymore and it's just gonna continue to get worse.

DracocrashJul 21, 20187 votes

Theres only one person to thank for that, you know who he is. hint : T

The Bad TouchJul 21, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Average Fizz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehiuPpiR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-21T16:24:39.000+0000)

Theres only one person to thank for that, you know who he is. hint : T

2 People who shall not be named because the Rito Nazi's will delete the post.

But we all know who they are.

Clayblob2Jul 21, 20185 votes

All this mobility and Aatrox's w does a 30% slow. riot games at its finest

BlackEyesBlueJul 21, 20185 votes

Some more Anti mobility spells would be nice... grounded needs to be utilized more.

Also I wouldn't mind a QoL buff to Poppy's W that reduses the CD if she stopped an enemies ability. Seriously, it has a 22 second cd at first rank! Most dashes have less then 8 seconds between them early game.

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20181 votes

Leblanc W 14-10 seconds Fiora Q 16-8 seconds (she doesn't get the refund if you stop it with W) Irelia Q 12-8 seconds (again no refund)

I'm sure I'm missing more, but these 3 champions MAX their dash first so they would have the shortest cooldown out of the entire roster and none of them are less than 8 seconds early game. Every other dash that is maxed second or third ( Graves stuck at 18 and Gragas stuck at 16 with no refund) will not even COME CLOSE to 8 seconds until at least level 14 with some CDR.

ChalzeJul 21, 20182 votes

I miss playing LoL for the macroplay, not microplay :(

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20182 votes

Still win games by superior macro play. It only devolves into a micro game if people don't know how to actually lose lane and instead go 0/7 because they think engaging on their 4/0 lane opponent after it failed the past 4 times was a good idea. There is a reason that when higher elo players "lose lane" they are typically only down like 2 kills and maybe like 20-30 cs instead of being down 4 kills, 3 levels, and down 40 cs.

FailogJul 21, 20182 votes

Said this for years. Saw this coming. They are trying to out do the old kits, and its a mess

DeathfallJul 22, 20181 votes

Oh it's not changing and they are going to offer zero counterplay. They'll nerf damage numbers before they address the issues.

IG ZikoJul 22, 20182 votes

The problem is not exactly mobility. It's that every new champ has an overloaded kit to be "cool". Pyke has invisibility, hook, dash, stun that can hit multiple champions, excuting ult that reset and busted healing when hiding. So....

Pika FoxAug 16, 20181 votes

He also cant build HP and his damage on everything other than his ult is non existant. He is also incentivized to go into melee range, and his stealth is only camo and doesnt work in melee range.

GankLordAug 15, 20181 votes

Yep though I'm kind of mad this got so many upvotes when I essentially said the same thing about Akali. Anyway keeping to the point I agree I love playing velkoz who I had to switch to for my mid main after Riot gutted Zyra. However no matter how well I play mobility beats everything. Can't really enjoy playing Annie or Velkoz mid anymore so I've recently going back to learning Ekko it's ridiculous.