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Why not make 2 AP jungle items?

UkeNeverSeme··109 votes·3,920 views

Rito has always been in a state of flux around the AP jungle item, just like it has with devourer/madreds/feral flare whatever it is. The last iteration (runeglaive) gave the option of using a high amount of untraditional melee ap assassins (fizz, akali, ekko) as junglers with good success. If we look at the traditional ap jungler (all 2 of them) it was pretty frigging bad on fiddlesticks (who's always had split opinions about whether to even BUY a jungle item or just rush zhonyas) and it was good on Elise. The new item being introduced basically makes all the new runeglaive champions bad in the jungle, Elise keeps on being fine (as always), Fiddle might actually look at the recommended items again, and ehh... Jungle Karma is better now boyz? She is sincerely the only champion I could find other than fiddle where the new item would be a good thing for her if you went into the jungle with her. (remember diamondprox back in season 3? guess he's happy). So why don't riot not just make 2 AP enchants, one for traditional mages in the jungle, and another one for assassins. They have one for spellcasting and aa focused ad's, so why not 2 for ap's?

68 Comments

Lost In Time11 votes

inb4 2 tank jungler items

CoolKnightST1 votes

We need an armor enchantment too.

UkeNeverSeme16 votes

There is no tank that doesn't scale off health, so that's not really an issue imo, but there's a lot of ap's that don't necessarily scale off either a on-hit effect, or a kiting spellcasting pattern passive.

MEMEME6701 votes

There are tanks that don't necessarily want a sunfire cape effect, though, and nobody complains about that.

The stat part of the jungle item every AP champion scales off of, because it just gives flat AP.

charcharmunro1 votes

In fairness, the immolate passive on Cinderhulk far pales in comparison to the health.

MEMEME6701 votes

In the late game, sure. In the early game I think they're MUCH closer.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

There are tanks that don't necessarily want a sunfire cape effect, though, and nobody complains about that.

The stat part of the jungle item every AP champion scales off of, because it just gives flat AP.

The sunfire cape effect is nice for clearing the jungle faster, even if you would not normally want an actual Sunfire Cape.

Biffolo1 votes

And dealing more aoe damage to camps with large mana regen is something you want even if you wouldn't normally want a ludens.

Gengar6 votes

http://i.imgur.com/c7NJRa2.gif

Jungle Lux God3 votes

Brand, Malzahar, Karthus, and Zyra would all prefer Echoes over Glaive in the jungle, and can clear reasonably well. The only reason they aren't picked in the jungle are because they don't have a good jungle item to use, and there are quite a few others that would jungle reasonably well that I can't think of right now that would honestly prefer the new item over the old one.

In addition, Fiddlesticks has been struggling greatly ever since Runeglaive was released because he can't use it well. You could argue that Fiddlesticks didn't need the item to succeed, but his highest winrate builds and most popular builds before it was released all bought Magus as a first item or a second item after boots. He was reliant on that jungle item powerspike, and getting that powerspike back will be super useful for him, especially considering he's one of the few AP champions that has only been able to jungle, at least apart from when his supportive capabilities were strong.

And you look at most of the assassin champions, and most would prefer Echoes over Runeglaive. In particular, Ekko already buys Luden's Echo as a core item for both mid and jungle, Fizz would be more happy with getting a real Lich Bane instead of a fraudulent Lich Bane, and Akali would really like an item that gives her more of what she wants in the extra AP and less of what she can't use well like the mana or the cooldown reduction.

If anything, nearly any AP champion can actually use Runic Echoes in the jungle while only a few can actually use Runeglaive in the jungle, and this distinction of how many champions can use it has the potential to increase the diversity in AP junglers to a degree we haven't seen before, and is the kind of diversity that Riot promised with Runeglaive when it was first introduced.

UkeNeverSeme1 votes

They are also not being picked for mediocre gank options with no mobility to come from unexpected spots and such. Karthus used to be picked simply for his "afk farm, press ult" option, and will be an option again. but I don't feel that any of the champions you mentioned are good junglers, mostly due to low dueling power, which will get them raped by any decent elise/lee sin/j4 or similar player.

Sevixys1 votes

You are seriously telling me Malzahar is an awful duelist? You need a Doctor, severely.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Malzahar is an amazing duelist when he has his ultimate.

He's not such a good duelist when he doesn't.

UkeNeverSeme1 votes

And if anyone has a QSS he is major sad. or outrange him, or.. a Lot of other things. Oh and he doesn't like ganks. he REALLY doesn't like ganks.

UkeNeverSeme1 votes

And in the jungle that leads him to being severely counterjunglable. He will die to pretty much any invade, or at least have to burn summs.

Odinakos1 votes

The prime reason those mages dont see jungle is because they can be easily invaded. Also having not so good early clear delays their gang potential a lot. I love diana jungle and while she has good clear, i know her no1 weakness is pre6 gangs. Imagine with those fellas. Lack of item comes after those reasons, along with lower gold(that hurts a lot on this fast pace meta).

Fiddels is a special case because of his playstyle. Any range mage can weave a couple AAs(i know probably on tanks) but they can somewhat use runeglaive.

As for melee ap junglers, echoes is a direct nerf. Base damage is the same the time items are completed, scaling is a lot worse. Adding that runeglaive usualy procs 2 times during assasination compared to one, this gets runeglaive way ahead. We are talking for 2bAD+.6 AP vs 80+.1AP. Sure akali may complete something else first but she would love runeglaive at her mid-late game. Despite of the ubnormal stats. Something on the line of jungle item-> deathcap-> complete runeglaive. For Fizz i beleive it is a nerf as he will require to invest on lich bane after. With no solo income, now he can get a mini lich bane and move on. And LB is not that far ahead. .75bAD+.5AP vs 1bAd+.3AP. Small difference for 700 gold, becomes meaningful to get LB considering you already want to invest 1050 gold into jungle item. Ekko adds mobility and poke but looses on damage. Kinda torn there. And then there is DIana. Straigt nerf. Only pros are poke and rotation. She looses burst and a lot more sustained damage. There is no gold for lich bane as you gotta get jungle item into cap/zhonyans/defence/void.

I am not saying new jungle item is not a great addition. In fact i want to see other ap jungle with success. But the removal of runeglaive really hurts melee ap junglers. And it makes me sad that Diana, one of my favorite junglers, will become even more unviable. There is no harm keeping them both.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

With ranged junglers Echoes is strictly better. It is significantly better to proc less damage from spell range than it is to more damage in auto attack range because the spell range is significantly larger, and thererfore safer, than the auto attack range. Combine it with better stats and a lower gold cost and Runeglaive can't compete.

With melee junglers it's still mostly a buff. At the expense for your all-in, your dueling potential, and your cooldown reduction you get extra poke damage for any ranged abilities you have, more AP, more map mobility with the extra movement speed, and a lower cost. It's definitely better on Ekko and for everyone else it's reasonably good, but you probably wouldn't buy Runeglaive on nearly any AP jungler.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

It is more or less a straight buff to melee mage junglers anyway since they can just BUY regular lich bane now second item and get the better damage out of that. Look at Diana now with 2 items she gets 17% MS, 140 AP, no mana problems ever, and 80+75% Base AD+50% AP added to her burst rotation. All for what? 5650 gold? That's not that bad and you can realistically get MOST of that for 3500 due to sheen costing hardly anything now so with just the new jg item and sheen you will probably out damage runeglaive+blasting wand for roughly the same amount of gold.

Odinakos1 votes

Dont ever think Diana will benefit. She is the one most nerfed from the change. Diana can reliably proc runeglaive 2 times in short rotation, probably after her Rs. And the 3200 gold for LB could go towards your deathcap and zhonyans, 2 items you really need on Diana. The only deviation is Ludens when far ahead so she seals the deal. Going out of the path for so much gold(that is kinda hard to gain as jungler) delays your end game even further. Also LB holds a slot better used on other items like Void stuff or Rylais(heck i could even share stories about wits end but thats another topic). Last but not least not onlu runeglaive outdamages Echoes a lot but Runeglaive+Zhonyans is a lot better than Echoes +LB.

Odinakos1 votes

On average it is a nerf to mellee no matter how you see it. Cost is the same, 20 ap is a small difference compared the less damage output and your all-in and dueling potential is a large pro for runeglaive. Mellees only get the ms and better poke. And i value the MS a lot. Echoes is better on the range ap since they dont AA a lot (even thought they might throw a bit of aas on the front lines). So why not keep both since there are clear cases that would want either?

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Runeglaive costs 2675 gold. Runic Echoes costs 2450 gold. That's a 225 gold difference.

Something you also need to keep in mind that all-in and dueling potential aren't very useful if you fall behind. A lot of the melee range AP assassins that jungle right now are extremely vulnerable to falling behind in the game, and Runeglaive is significantly worse when you fall behind because all you have with Runeglaive is all-in and dueling potential, but you are so far behind that you can't even all-in or duel anyone on the enemy team because you just get blown up. Runic Echoes at least allows you to be of some use by poking down the enemy team a bit while also getting some extra AP to make your poke stronger.

Honestly, I don't think anyone would actually consider Runeglaive as an option with their jungle items when Runic Echoes is available.

Odinakos1 votes

Even behind i think that the burst and all-in of runeglaive will help you do somethink, like clean up and bait. The difference for melee champs is quite high. Echoes proc for 80+.1ap while double runeglaive proc is 2bAD+.6AP. My opinion is that it is quite enouph to make a difference, even when behind. Ekko maybe like echoes better because of his Q, but Diana and Fizz are getting a nerf from the change. Akali, i beleive is at the latter group.

Since they are clear cases that would prefer either item i still think that both should remain.

And maths on Diana. Assuming an average game. No runes masteries, level 9 rotation just jungle item Q, 2R, 3W, 3 AAs, 1P. Runeglaive (2 procs) : 228+ 448 + 126 + 237physical + 112+182(2 procs)= 1108 magic+237 physical=1345 Runic Echoes (1 proc): 242+ 472+ 132+237 physical + 128 + 86= 1080m +237ph = 1317

Level 14 rotation with jungle item+zhonyans : Runeglaive : 1653 + 267 = 1920 Runic Echoes : 1509 + 267 = 1776

Level 18 rotation Jungle item +zhonyans + cap: Runeglaive (351 ap) : 2676 + 312 = 2988 Runic echoes (378 ap): 2373 + 312 = 2685

As you can see the later in the game the better it becomes. At first it is similar and the 20 ap makes some difference (gonna admit did not think so) but after the first major item runeglaive gets ahead. Ludens+RG(2bAD+100+.7ap) is worse than RE +Lich Bane(1.5 bAD+80 +1.1 ap), but both items are in the optional slot that is probably gonna be used towards defencive item. Or as second to seal the deal when ahead. Both cases does not matter a lot.

PS: I am gonna say it one more time to become clear. Runic Echoes would be a great addition which i welcome. And i dont deny that if i would choose only one item to exist that would be Runic Echoes. But i would love Runeglaive to remain for more options since i see that for some cases it is better.

UkeNeverSeme1 votes

I agree that it's a buff to ranged junglers, there just aren't very many of them.

Teeter Dance3 votes

I dont think there should be 2 AP Jungle Enchants, and I know there was discussion about this in other threads, but essentially what it will come down to is that one will always be more efficient than the other in terms of raw stats, because their proc effects are so different in power.

If you want 2 enchants that both grant AP, Mana, or CDR, one of the options will be better (stat wise) and that will be the only Enchantment that will be picked up on ALL AP Junglers, as they all benefit from the same stats (AP, Mana, CDR)

& before someone says that there are 2 AD Enchantments, there is an AD Enchantment and an On-Hit Effect/AA Proc Enchantment. They have 2 completely separate Champion pools that would pick each one up, as they offer completely separate stats.

So unless someone has an idea for an Enchantment that doesnt grant AP, I really see no need for two in the game.

Steelflame1 votes

If you want 2 enchants that both grant AP, Mana, or CDR, one of the options will be better (stat wise) and that will be the only Enchantment that will be picked up on ALL AP Junglers, as they all benefit from the same stats (AP, Mana, CDR)

I honestly think that having two AP enchants is fine, if they are tailored to two different types of AP jungle, the sheen proc focused ones, and the spellslinger focused ones. Then again, I made a post where I want two tank enchants, and Warrior/Devourer to be reworked into working as two matching enchants for physical damage dealers, one with on spell effects (Warrior) and one with on hit effects (Devourer), and a new tanky support jungler item based on Sightstone, and for Runic Echos and Runeglave to both stay. There is a few other things like all jungle scaling in a Devourer style, where the item's power scales with stacks based on jungler activities, and being rebalanced so that it is insanely hard to pick them up as a laner as a result.

If you want to read the post/comment on it, you could here.

MrBuffington1 votes

I'm not sure it's necessary; Having tried it on PBE, runic echo kind of has the best of both worlds. Most junglers I can think of that utilize runeglaive's sheen proc (Diana, Nidalee, Fizz, Ekko, Elise, Evelynn, etc.) are basically after burst damage, which runic echo still provides (it's just Luden's in a jungle item). Basically it just procs on spells now instead of only auto attacks, allowing junglers like Fiddlesticks (who barely auto attacks) to use it, in addition to other junglers that utilize sheen procs (they still have to cast spells to get a sheen proc)

euJHINius3 votes

There are 4 enchantments for each type of Jungle Breed. Cinderhulk is for Health, Warrior is for AD, Devourer is for On-Hit and Attack Speed, and Runeglaive is for AP.

The problem is that Runeglaive can't be built on all AP Junglers. Karthus, Akali, Fiddlesticks, Zyra, etc. Runic Echo fixes that, and lets it more accessible to more people. Runic Echo is good on anyone who would build AP, since its big brother Ludens is good on most AP builders. Plus Movement Speed is a +++++++++++++++++

Nekusen2 votes

#1 item 3706 (jungler item) + item 3191

Item stats:

50 Armor 50 ability power 25% Mana regen Unique Passive Magus: Takedowns (kills or assists) will grant Magus stacks, increasing cooldown reduction by 0.5% and ability power by 0.5%, maxes at 30 stacks. Takedowns on: ● Large monsters and champions grant 1 stack. ● Rift Scuttlers grant 2 stacks. ● Dragon, Baron Nashor grant 5 stacks.

Transforms into Archmage at 30 stacks, gaining: 15 Magic pen When the user casts a spell on an enemy, debuffs on that target are extended by 15% (max 3 stacks on a target)

#2

item 3706 (jungler item) + ~~ item 3136 ~~ item 1028 +item 1052

Item stats:

200 HP 15 Magic pen 30 ability power Unique Passive Magus: Takedowns (kills or assists) will grant Magus stacks, increasing cooldown reduction by 0.5% and ability power by 0.5%, maxes at 30 stacks. Takedowns on: ● Large monsters and champions grant 1 stack. ● Rift Scuttlers grant 2 stacks. ● Dragon, Baron Nashor grant 5 stacks.

OjousamaLey2 votes

I support this, i main jungle Fizz and he is pretty much unplayable without runeglaive*[slayer-jinx-unamused]*

Vincent Lucius3 votes

... On one hand there is balance and doing what's best for the game... On the other hand you play Fizz and I would like to see you not do that anymore.

But really, the two items sounds good.

Silents4291 votes

Ironic considering Runeglaive not only worked on every AP jungler except Fiddle but allowed other champions to jungle who couldn't before, but everyone couldn't care any less about what was "best" for the game back then.

ThunderSqueak2 votes

God forbid that we have options (cough) summoner 4 (cough)

Saianna2 votes

Elise keeps on being fine (as always)

...

fine (as always)

...

(as always)

LoL... Someone forgot when Elise was trash tier for longer than a season..

UkeNeverSeme1 votes

No I remember that. And it wasn't a season lol, it was half a season, which is basically the only time since release she's been less than tier 1.

Baron Von Bangin2 votes

Elise "fine as always."

What? Huh? HUUNNGHHH???

Bergk1 votes

item 3100 + item 3285 + Runic Echoes = + 30% movement speed summoner 6 = + 27% movement speed

lol someone with those three items (which actually would work great together without the movement speed) would essentially be FASTER than if they always had the summoner speed ghost on....

TheSlogs1 votes

But this is already a thing... Janna item 1306 item 3285 item 3285 item 3285 item 3285 item 3285 I'm pretty sure that this is about 600 static movespeed.

Bergk1 votes

[deleted]

DrCyanide1 votes

Did I miss something? My calculations came out to 545 movement speed.

420 * (1 + 0.5) * (1 - (0 * 1)) = 630 630 is greater than 490, so the soft cap is applied. (630 * 0.5) + 230 =545

aura trifire1 votes

Plus Janna's MS boost from W.

DrCyanide1 votes

Ah, thank you.

With those items, the Wanderer mastery (+3% MS out of combat), and the Explorer mastery (+15 MS in the River or a Bush), Janna can get up to 603.5 MS.

Calculations:

415 * (1 + 0.8) * (1 - (0 * 1)) = 747 747 is greater than 490, so the soft cap is applied. (747 * 0.5) + 230 =603.5

Abyss of Exiles1 votes

"If we look at the traditional ap jungler (all 2 of them)" Seems Amumu is still being forgotten item 3070 item 3070

Sevixys1 votes

Amumu synergizes pretty well with cinderhulk. I myself wouldn't play him with runeglaive ;)

SerBlaise1 votes

2 AP doesn't sound like it would be enough AP...

Z463 votes

Dad, what are you doing here?

Bastilean1 votes

There is no difference between AP casters and AP assassins. They build AP to do damage. There is a huge difference between AD casters and Marksmen. More importantly there are a lot of AA and tank items that benefit from magic penetration. I think Diana, Jax, Kayle and Fizz can all go devourer.

Devourer is great on Diana. Get that prock every 2 aa's and does magic damage in a large cleave not reduced near the edges.

Diana will not become less viable. She can still build Lichebane. In this case she will be 7% movement speed faster running around the map demolishing people. With more AP she will hit harder than before too. She will be safer. That movement speed cannot be overstated. Fizz will be flying around the map. Beleive me melee mages will like-a-da-movement-speed.

If you want a sheen buy a sheen. It's not a big loss. I used to love the 20% CDR mage jungle item because I built trinity force into it. The point is every jungle item is replace-able by a better item and this version of Echo is OP in my book. It's functionally the same thing minus some AP and some base damage. **Functionally, with the smite actives it is a lot stronger than a Luden's Echo. **Lichebane has a higher AP ratio and this item has a higher AP stat. Most mages don't use sheen and shouldn't be pushed into it. Every mage uses echo effectively. It procks on spells. I expect this Jungle Echo to get nerfed before it hits live, but if it doesn't I expect you mage junglers to thank your lucky stars.

Tis a nice day1 votes

There's only 1 jungle tank item. There's only 1 jungle AD caster item. There's only 1 jungle auto-attack item.

A Liberal1 votes

tfw you don't read the post and comment anyway

Tis a nice day1 votes

Devourer works for AP auto-attack champions.

GundayMonday1 votes

Looking forward to playing this guy again. Karthus summoner 11

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