Why does Rito never revert nerfs?

UkeNeverSeme··21 votes·2,285 views

Just thinking that riots followup on champion nerfs is really bad. Once a nerf goes live they rarely, if ever, revert or change the nerf on subsequent patches, unless they want to nerf even harder. Even in cases where it's obvious that ther nerfs are just too damn much. Particularly thinking about the patch 4.21 warwick destruction: it's pretty clear that the devourer and skirmishers changes ALONE would have thrown him out of his OP spot, but riot decided to nerf him even harder than that effectively giving him the good old Olaf. Haven't seen a warwick since. And despite that there was no sign of reverting, or even just following up on the champions state. It's like as long as they get a champ out of flavour of the month, it doesn't matter what happens after that. Lucian is similar. I mean he's decent, but there's really no reason to not give him the slight slight buff he needs to be on par with Graves, thus getting him into the competitive ad carry rotation as something other than a "well graves was banned/taken and we wanted that kind of champ".

Why tito? why never check up on nerfs and go, ok we hit it a tad hard here lets revert this but keep the rest and he'll be in a good spot. It can't be that hard to give a slight buff after every nerf as necessary.

35 Comments

Troy24262128 votes

That'd be admitting they're wrong. Can't have that.

lojician18 votes

The real question is why they never revert dumbass buffs.

Feathermane2 votes

Graves and Ahri prime targets for that.

Auryiel7 votes

The answer to both is obviously that Riot is always right

Hrmz5 votes

I don't need Riot's permission to say they're wrong.

Rei Tenshi12 votes

Typical Rito response:

"We have collected tons of data on this matter, and you are wrong, end of story"

Zirzon10 votes

item 3070 Elise item 3070

straight4free10 votes

They did revert a nerf once.

When they removed Lee Sin's ward hop.

That should tell you something about how special Lee Sin is in Riot's heart.

Also, if they buff Lucian I'm done with this game. Bot lane is already too kill-centric, don't need that monster to be strong again.

Solaxo7 votes

They are incapable of admitting their mistakes

Buttigieg 20206 votes

Kha zix would like some nerfs reverted since he is no longer super dominant in the jungle.

Tin Tarantino5 votes

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Junkο6 votes

They are reverting her movement speed but further gutting her health

Tin Tarantino1 votes

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Pika3104 votes

The mana change is also a nerf. Her current mana regen is identical to Nami, Janna, Soraka, etcetera. They're support-minded numbers: high base for laning at the cost of lower per-level.

Forcing Sona into a solo laner's mana regen pattern is illogical at best. I can't understand wtf the balance team is thinking on this one, other than that they hate Sona and these are meant to drop her play-rate even further.

Tin Tarantino1 votes

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Miku Hime sama2 votes

Which is altogether an overall nerf, because supports need early stats. Riot is intentionally forcing Sona's stat patterns into an unhealthy state that will inevitably make her weaker. Which doesn't say much since she's already the weakest unit in the game anyways.

It's as if Riot sabotaged Yamcha. It doesn't matter, he would still die regardless. They're just beating a dead horse.

Teridax685 votes

Generally, nerfs tend to have a reason behind them, and reverting them would just risk bringing the champion in question back to their previous problematic state. Warwick got nerfed to the ground because he just got to deal way too much damage with a point-and-click ult, and Lucian got placed in a state he should've been in since release, where his huge mobility comes at a large cost in safety and damage. If these champions were to receive buffs, those buffs would likely apply to other parts of their kit, and not just be nerf reversions. Buffing champions is also a matter of what exactly needs a buff, and how that needs to be applied. If Warwick is lacking damage, for example, perhaps it would be better to buff his attack damage, attack speed or on-hit effect, and leave his Q/W/R untouched, or the reverse if you wanted more situational damage.

Regarding the issue of Lucian versus Graves , I think Graves is in pretty much the same state as Lucian before his kit rework: he definitely has some unique features (resilience, massive burst, vision denial), but also has a little bit of everything, so he doesn't exactly have really large weaknesses to exploit besides his high mana costs. That's also why he was, and still is, frequently compared to Lucian: both are bursty mobile champs with a hit-and-run playstyle, and when Lucian was top dog, there was no real reason to pick Graves. Now that Lucian was made more niche, Graves is the more dominant pick. Graves needs a small retune in the same manner as Lucian, so that he'd have even more pronounced strengths (bursty frontliner carry, anyone?), but also much clearer weaknesses (an even shorter autoattack range, for example).

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

Over time, every champion will hopefully find their unique niche to fill.

Rei Tenshi8 votes

{quoted}

Generally, nerfs tend to have a reason behind them, and reverting them would just risk bringing the champion in question back to their previous problematic state.

Because Sona was dominating bottom lane in both casuals and LCS play, amirite?

Teridax681 votes

Perhaps not in LCS, but yes, Sona was a bit too strong. She's actually getting changes on the PBE that, in addition to reverting her recent movement speed nerf, are giving her better AD and mana regen, though her health per level is getting slashed. Her main issue was that her poke pattern in lane didn't give her opponents that much of an opportunity to attack her, so the purpose of her recent changes was first to curb her poke (hence the nerf to her Q Powerchord, which was objectively a bit too strong), and then make her more vulnerable overall, which started out as a movement speed nerf but is reverted in exchange for a health nerf and better regen/AD (Sona's going to end up being the squishiest champion in the game, and that's fine because she's always been a squishy caster support).

It's easy to just vent at Riot for making seemingly arbitrary decisions and supposedly not knowing how to balance their own game, or just portray them as an enemy to fight against, but that's the wrong kind of mentality. If Riot were genuinely out of touch with the community, or trying to fight us, League would die out completely in the space of a Dawngate beta. While we mainly experience League subjectively, it's the balance team's job to analyze the game objectively and make changes that, even if not popular in the short term or for a portion of the community, are beneficial on a larger scale. Riot doesn't always make the right decisions, nor do they always make those decisions in the best way, but that is also something they are aware of and work on improving. If you disagree with Riot's decisions, tell them why, and give them a reason to reconsider their changes beyond just insulting their ability to balance the game.

Wheatloaf2 votes

A wild thought-out comment has appeared! Take my upvote!

Llanite5 votes

Because admitting mistakes make you look weak.

BallisticMouse5 votes

They reverted Lee Sin's nerf once. Cause Lee Sin fan boys will Rito if Riot nerfs him.

GaleWinUnleashed4 votes

I've seen a couple of Warwicks since then. His ult and sustain are still terrifying. In other words, he's exactly as viable as he was before the pre-season items pushed his power through the roof.

A little Peepo4 votes

Technically the sona ms nerf was never reverted since it never made it into live just pbe notes, I believe. The only champion I can think of getting reverted in live was pantheon back when he was able to 1 shot you with his E because of this buff they gave him back in season 3 I believe? If pbe then a lot of things get reverted in pbe tbh, Kass had like 3 or 4 remakes reverted before they remade his kit and removed silence.

What Is Smite4 votes

Yea I'm still waiting on the Fiora nerf reverts because literally her power spike was pushed back until she got Last Whisper or got a 2nd point in her ultimate. You think tower diving is an issue or that it does too much damage? Well no shit it will deal a bunch of damage if you refuse to build literally no armor as a top laner or if you're low enough to when i can use it as an execute I will. I know for certain that every Fiora main who did testing on the ultimate nerf were against it and they even provided numbers that would balance her ult, in honesty they gave a piss poor excuse to nerf her ultimate in the patch 4.20 notes.

Pika3103 votes

item 3070 Sona item 3070

RIP

9/21/2010 - 7/30/2014

SecretAgentHulk2 votes

This sounds suspiciously like confirmation bias. Additionally, I'm not terribly sure that Warwick is a good example, as he has a rework coming through the pipes eventually (with lore and now champs affected by DFG, Riot seems to be OK with tearing down and then rebuilding, as opposed to doing it all at once. Whether or not you agree with that, it seems to be how Riot's working these days, and Warwick IIRC falls into that same category), and with Lucian nerfed in 4.21, it sounds like he's exactly where Riot wants him instead of in a place of weakness.

And they do revert nerfs sometimes. The most obvious recent examples are all the weaker junglers in 5.2, and Jax and Yasuo in 4.21.

qetzel1 votes

Lucian is on par with Graves.

GamersEye1 votes

Because they usually nerf something because it's a problem in terms of core gameplay. If they revert numbers, then it still is a problem. Things are left nerfed because they would just be nerfed again. And some people are gonna say, oh what about a "happy medium." That's not feasibly possible with most champions. Happy medium's tend to get abused.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Draven

They nerfed his spinning axes to land further away, so he would have to use his speed boost to catch them. Then reverted it 1 patch later.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

It was in patch 3.6. Why is this getting down voted?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Syndra nerfs got half reverted last patch. Don't be surprised if they're all the way reverted, because she's still pretty weak.

Sinlaire1 votes

Didn't they revert a Kass change just here in the last PBE patch notes? Same goes for the Ahri Q cost. they upped her mana cost, then bumped it down on the PBE just a few days later.

UkeNeverSeme2 votes

They revert things on PBE, but almost never once something goes live, which is honestly a mistake, because live servers are a much better mirror of champion ability.

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