still waiting for aftershock to be made available to every fighter.

Critmaster Garen·Nov 5, 2017·5 votes·580 views

its currently still the only keystone rune that straight up excludes a group of champions from picking it due to its inaccessable trigger condition, even when it would synergize with their kits.

every other keystone rune can be picked up by every single champion in the game.

the only other case i can recall is and magical footwear and predator. even in this case, there should be some sort of compensation, because locking champions out of rune choices is stupid.

12 Comments

Iota ThetaNov 5, 20172 votes

Not every rune should be accessible for every champ. Besides, there are much better options for fighters

Critmaster GarenNov 5, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-05T03:28:03.672+0000)

Not every rune should be accessible for every champ. Besides, there are much better options for fighters

there arent really many options for fighters.

and yes, every rune is supposed to be available for every champion. the new runes are supposed to support playstiles and not specific champions.

Iota ThetaNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T04:16:28.651+0000)

there arent really many options for fighters.

and yes, every rune is supposed to be available for every champion. the new runes are supposed to support playstiles and not specific champions.

Why not Press the Attack? Or Electrocute for some? Predator? Grasp?

Why not actually test all The actual options first and see if one comes up that you like?

Technically yes. But Riot themselces have even said that some playstyles won’t end up being supported. The problem with allowing Aftershock to be more usable is it would require a look at what would be an acceptable condition. Remember, it’s a replacement for Courage of the Colossus, which was the replacement for Strength of the Ages, a keystone that almost every jungler took for extra health, even Nidalee.

Most fighters don’t even use Courage now anyway, even if they can proc it. From my understanding, most benefit more more from Grasp of the Undying (which is staying) or Ferver of Battle (closest similarity is Press the Attack).

Critmaster GarenNov 5, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T13:04:35.142+0000)

Why not Press the Attack? Or Electrocute for some? Predator? Grasp?

Why not actually test all The actual options first and see if one comes up that you like?

what most fighters use or dont use right now doesnt matter. aftershock isnt comparable to CoC. their effects are entirely different.

also, maybe part of the reason why most fighters arent picking CoC up is because a lot of them cant?

i have a pbe account, ive played with and tested the new runes. and unless theyre going to change a major part of the system in the next 3 days, id consider my opinion pretty well informed.

some champions have very few options, while some champions have a lot of options in every path. its the same shit as with the current mastery keystones where the system is heavily biased towards the champion you play.

you play JarvanIV and you have two choices in resolve with aftershock or grasp.

you play Nasus Garen Illaoi and you only get one. precision keystones suck for these champions, so do the sorcery options.

especially if youre not playing a champion whos main source of damage is auto attacks, a lot of the runes are exceptionally hard (or at the least a lot harder) to trigger.

grasp is also incredibly hard to trigger aswell. most of the time, the buff falls off before you can prime it on minions, or trades are too short and end before the proc is ready. and thats only if you can trade with your opponent. if not, youre not even going to be able to stack the damn thing, and half of its power is not going to be accessble to you at all.

YES, the trigger condition has to be reviewed. thats why i made this thread. there is really no valid reason to lock a group opf fighters out of a potential keystone, while other fighters and tanks can pick it up without issues.

it was already bullshit with CoC and its bullshit with aftershock.

Iota ThetaNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T13:11:42.933+0000)

i did. i have a pbe account. some champions have very few options, while some champions have a lot of options in every path.

especially if youre not playing a champion whos main source of damage is auto attacks, a lot of the runes are exceptionally hard to trigger.

grasp is also incredibly hard to trigger aswell. most of the time, the buff falls off before you can prime it on minions, or trades are too short and end before the proc is ready. and thats only if you can trade with your opponent.

I feel like the other issue with PBE is you can’t get a full grasp of the strength of a rune, due to mismatches in matchmaking. Something that could be weak there might be real strong on live when on more equal footing (ex: Skarner rework)

How is grasp harder to trigger than it is now? Farm, watch for the trade, proc because it was set up on the minions, and if the enemy stays back because you have the grasp ready to proc, well, you decent job of zoning them off CS.

I was sure that Press the Attack didn’t need autos anymore. Odd. Still, if you can get into longer trades, that’s a handy rune, since you end up autoing at least three times.

YES, the trigger condition has to be reviewed. thats why i made this thread. there is really no valid reason to lock a group opf fighters out of a potential keystone, while other fighters and tanks can pick it up without issues.

it was already bullshit with CoC and its bullshit with aftershock.

Well it was designed for tanks. Most fighters that can use it don’t really care to anymore because they have better rune options, now more than ever before.

What about the poor dashless champs that can’t use Sudden Impact?

Critmaster GarenNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T13:29:22.217+0000)

What about the poor dashless champs that can’t use Sudden Impact?

technically flash can still trigger it. with the channeled flash ability you can even do this on a regular basis with bush engages.

Iota ThetaNov 5, 20171 votes

Interesting, although could be a waste of a flash.

Also, since you edited your previous post..

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T13:11:42.933+0000)

what most fighters use or dont use right now doesnt matter. aftershock isnt comparable to CoC. their effects are entirely different.

Eh, one gives temporary resistances, and one gives a temporary shield. Basically the same thing. Regardless, the resistances are the core part. Besides, Grasp has better damage and a heal.

also, maybe part of the reason why most fighters arent picking CoC up is because a lot of them cant?

I’m not talking about those, I mean the ones that can: Darius, J4, Kled. Most prefer damage or Grasp. J4’s most common build is TLD. CotC may have a higher winrate, but that’s only over 25 games. Kled, Irelia, Renekton, Urgot, and Darius make much better use of Ferver of Battle.

i have a pbe account, ive played with and tested the new runes. and unless theyre going to change a major part of the system in the next 3 days, id consider my opinion pretty well informed.

My point stands from earlier, balance on PBE can’t be taken at face value. What is weak there might not actually be weak. Skarner is the best example of why PBE is not good for balance desicions. So while you claim that the other runes are poor for fighters, that might not actually he the case (see potential in Dark Harvest for example).

some champions have very few options, while some champions have a lot of options in every path. its the same shit as with the current mastery keystones where the system is heavily biased towards the champion you play.

you play and you have two choices in resolve with aftershock or grasp.

you play and you only get one. precision keystones suck for these champions, so do the sorcery options.

especially if youre not playing a champion whos main source of damage is auto attacks, a lot of the runes are exceptionally hard (or at the least a lot harder) to trigger.

That’s the thing with being Juggernauts, less CC and less mobility, lots of damage and durability.

While their main source of damage may not be autoattacks, every single one of those champs you listed has to auto at some point while they wait for their CDs.

Don’t forget, you claim they don’t auto, but Illaoi’s W, Garen’s Q, and Nasus’s Q are all aa modifiers, so the runes that requires autos will proc on those abilities.

grasp is also incredibly hard to trigger aswell. most of the time, the buff falls off before you can prime it on minions, or trades are too short and end before the proc is ready. and thats only if you can trade with your opponent. if not, youre not even going to be able to stack the damn thing, and half of its power is not going to be accessble to you at all.

Most of it’s Power is the same as now, damage and heal. The health stack is a minor addition.

And if you can’t trade with your opponent, aftershock won’t do you any good either.

Critmaster GarenNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T13:55:30.187+0000)

Interesting, although could be a waste of a flash.

Also, since you edited your previous post..

Eh, one gives temporary resistances, and one gives a temporary shield. Basically the same thing. Regardless, the resistances are the core part. Besides, Grasp has better damage and a heal.

I’m not talking about those, I mean the ones that can: Darius, J4, Kled. Most prefer damage or Grasp. J4’s most common build is TLD. CotC may have a higher winrate, but that’s only over 25 games. Kled, Irelia, Renekton, Urgot, and Darius make much better use of Ferver of Battle.

My point stands from earlier, balance on PBE can’t be taken at face value. What is weak there might not actually be weak. Skarner is the best example of why PBE is not good for balance desicions. So while you claim that the other runes are poor for fighters, that might not actually he the case (see potential in Dark Harvest for example).

That’s the thing with being Juggernauts, less CC and less mobility, lots of damage and durability.

While their main source of damage may not be autoattacks, every single one of those champs you listed has to auto at some point while they wait for their CDs.

Don’t forget, you claim they don’t auto, but Illaoi’s W, Garen’s Q, and Nasus’s Q are all aa modifiers, so the runes that requires autos will proc on those abilities.

Most of it’s Power is the same as now, damage and heal. The health stack is a minor addition.

And if you can’t trade with your opponent, aftershock won’t do you any good either.

people underestimate the value of the extra health on grasp.

it can be between 20 to 30 and 200 extra health at 20 minutes depending on the matchup. ironically, the matchups where you would need the extra health the most, which is when you cant trade with your opponent, it is inaccessable.

this is why i think they should change the stack mechanic into a generic 4% max health increase and buff the health return slightly to 4% missing health instead of 2% max health.

you would get less health than you would in its best case scenario, but youd heal slightly more in fights where you take a lot of damage.

Iota ThetaNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T14:19:42.592+0000)

people underestimate the value of the extra health on grasp.

it can be between 20 to 30 and 200 extra health at 20 minutes depending on the matchup. ironically, the matchups where you would need the extra health the most, which is when you cant trade with your opponent, it is inaccessable.

this is why i think they should change the stack mechanic into a generic 4% max health increase and buff the health return slightly to 4% missing health instead of 2% max health.

you would get less health than you would in its best case scenario, but youd heal slightly more in fights where you take a lot of damage.

I could get behind that change. The extra health can be powerful, but like you said, certain matchups it won’t make a difference since you can’t trade (mostly against champs like Gnar or Jayce), and in those matchups, Aftershock wouldn’t help either. The increase being a 4% increase could be interesting. The question is, if I proc grasp, and then buy Warmogs, would I get an additional 4% from warmogs?

Critmaster GarenNov 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eZLUl2ae,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T17:29:30.238+0000)

I could get behind that change. The extra health can be powerful, but like you said, certain matchups it won’t make a difference since you can’t trade (mostly against champs like Gnar or Jayce), and in those matchups, Aftershock wouldn’t help either. The increase being a 4% increase could be interesting. The question is, if I proc grasp, and then buy Warmogs, would I get an additional 4% from warmogs?

with the current stack mechanic, you can get about an extra 200 health at 20 minutes and more from there on out over the rest of the game, if youre in the right lane matchup. ive done this, while laning against a shen who had sunfire cape and constantly attempted to trade with me.

there are certain other tank matchups like maokai, who doesnt deal a lot of damage on single trades and has too high sustain to be afraid of his opponent, in which case this will also be possible.

a 4% max health increase would make 160 bonus health on a 4k health build (so yes, this includes items like warmogs), which you usually reach around 35 minutes when youre itemizing heavily into defense.

4% missing health heal would be less than 2% max health heal when you have more than 50% of your health, and it would be more, when you have less than 50% of your health.

this means, the health you gain off a flat 4% increase is less than the current grasp in its optimal case, but its more reliable in return. you get more than with the stack mechanic, when youre in a bad matchup. you just have to get a item 1011 against that jayce to get an extra 15 health insead of praying that he lets you auto attack him 3 times while you have grasp ready.

the heal is situationally stronger when you take a lot of damage to go below 50% of your health, and weaker when youre close to full health. so i think this is a fair tradeoff in both cases.

InfernapeNov 5, 20171 votes

To be fair though it's intended to be Courage of the Colossus' replacement. So it's logical that it will only be taken by CC heavy champions (namely tanks and some divers).

KhristophorosNov 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

To be fair though it's intended to be Courage of the Colossus' replacement. So it's logical that it will only be taken by CC heavy champions (namely tanks and some divers).

It never made sense in the first place. Lots of non-tanks have ways to trigger it.