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News flash riot, I build SV because it's generic

SquashCannon··11 votes·670 views

I'm not building that fucking sceptre because I have almost no incentive to buy the fucking thing as a Darius Nasus (q max only) main.

I'm not building adaptive helm either if they dont have a cassiopeia (hell ryze is just irrelevant now so its not worth mentioning him).

And hell, even if some of these niches were to be satiated in certain circumstances, I would still buy SV over the other two items because it synergizes with the kits of my champion the best.

The SV nerf isnt going to make the other two items suddenly more attractive, it's just going to make SV shittier but still shinier than the other two shits.

Also, this change is going to disproportionately affect juggernauts who tend to rely heavily on spirit visage and cant really afford to buy the other two items in most circumstances even where their purchase would be justified for most other tanky champions.

If you want the other two items to be better, try making them a little more general. When an item is too niche (cough ohmwrecker cough) it usually just becomes a never purchase in the face of general items. And if general items get nerfed, then eventually all the items in that category suck ass.

TL;DR

Dont make SV uglier, make the other two hp mr options more attractive on their own merits. If that means taking a little bit of their niche and transfering it to general stats then so be it. Abyssal is slightly too niche, and adaptive is way too damn niche.

24 Comments

Rebonack5 votes

They should probably all give the same base stats like the three big armor/HP items (used to).

That was honestly a pretty good idea on Riot's part. You pick the one that the situation demands, not the one with the best raw stats.

SquashCannon3 votes

{quoted}

They should probably all give the same base stats like the three big armor/HP items (used to).

That was honestly a pretty good idea on Riot's part. You pick the one that the situation demands, not the one with the best raw stats.

This, big raw stat differences creates bad situations.

Every big name BF sword item has same AD, every armor hp item bar ohmwrecker and now randuins has same stats, why not mr hp items? Letting the passives/actives instead of the stats define when to build them is best

LankPants1 votes

I'd say all 3 of them should be 400 HP and 55 MR. While we're at it Rand's should also be 425/60 with a slightly weaker passive. The idea of choosing between effects rather than stats on tank items is a good idea, Riot just didn't follow it to its conclusion.

Ralanr4 votes

Weakening their niche at the cost of buffing general power makes them more common and therefore more oppressive over time.

Kinda like sunfire was...apparently.

SquashCannon6 votes

{quoted}

Weakening their niche at the cost of buffing general power makes them more common and therefore more oppressive over time.

Kinda like sunfire was...apparently.

If it presents too much of an issue then delete them and go back to SV.

As it is right now abyssal is fine for the most part, but helm is way too fucking niche, i aint buying it ever.

Ralanr5 votes

{quoted}

If it presents too much of an issue then delete them and go back to SV.

Eh...I'd rather not honestly.

As it is right now abyssal is fine for the most part, but helm is way too fucking niche, i aint buying it ever.

Idk, I find it very useful against Teemo, Swain, Azir, Cass, etc. Yes it is niche, but so is Thornmail.

SquashCannon3 votes

{quoted}

Eh...I'd rather not honestly.

Idk, I find it very useful against Teemo, Swain, Azir, Cass, etc. Yes it is niche, but so is Thornmail.

Dont make me laugh by bringing up the other armor item along with ohmwrecker that is almost never built, even after an indirect buff with the tank item changes

Ralanr4 votes

I didn't say Ohmwrecker, I said Thornmail. Helm is the MR Thornmail. Where the fuck did you get Ohmwrecker from?

Doctor Jarvis2 votes

Allow me to correct his grammar to allow him to make sense.

Don't make me laugh by bringing up another armor item that, along with ohmwrecker, is almost never built.

I have to assume this is how he meant to type it. He's still a dick though.

SquashCannon6 votes

{quoted}

I didn't say Ohmwrecker, I said Thornmail. Helm is the MR Thornmail. Where the fuck did you get Ohmwrecker from?

Because you cant fucking read.

"Other armor item ALONG with ohmwrecker THAT IS ALMOST NEVER BUILT"

I'm saying that thornmail is never fucking built because it is garbage. Thornmail may actually not be niche since adcs are pretty much in every comp, its stats just suck balls and the passive is weak, but thats a discussion for somewhere else.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

"This change is going to disproportionately affect juggernauts"

That's likely intended. Juggernauts are supposed to stack AD/Health. They should have much lower armor/MR than tanks.

The goal of the tank update was to reduce the power of one item defensive spikes, and SV was buffed too much. SV should not provide enough defense on its own, you should need two armor/health items, two Mr/health items and stoneplate to tank properly.

SquashCannon3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eY5EaX3P,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-17T16:44:01.899+0000)

"This change is going to disproportionately affect juggernauts"

That's likely intended. Juggernauts are supposed to stack AD/Health. They should have much lower armor/MR than tanks.

The goal of the tank update was to reduce the power of one item defensive spikes, and SV was buffed too much. SV should not provide enough defense on its own, you should need two armor/health items, two Mr/health items and stoneplate to tank properly.

We are supposed to stack hp but hp universally went down, what do you want.

Besides the only stated intentions they had were making the other two hp mr items attractive, which as this thread argues, isnt happening at all. Mr options just got shittier across the board since the king item got nerfed.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You're supposed to build Sterak's Gage, which gives you a much larger shield if you stack health than it did before.

The stated intention for this patch, yes. I'm talking about the tank update in general. Nerf all the tank items to make them weaker as one item pick ups.

This is likely a precursor to the end of season diver update where champions get more offensively statted defensive options that overall make divers squishier. Juggernauts may feel left out in the cold, but their tankiness has been making them more threatening tanks for a while now. It's okay that juggernauts are getting easier to kill. Only tanks deserve durability.

SquashCannon3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eY5EaX3P,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-17T17:07:44.431+0000)

You're supposed to build Sterak's Gage, which gives you a much larger shield if you stack health than it did before.

The stated intention for this patch, yes. I'm talking about the tank update in general. Nerf all the tank items to make them weaker as one item pick ups.

This is likely a precursor to the end of season diver update where champions get more offensively statted defensive options that overall make divers squishier. Juggernauts may feel left out in the cold, but their tankiness has been making them more threatening tanks for a while now. It's okay that juggernauts are getting easier to kill. Only tanks deserve durability.

And yet they never buffed the hp on steraks, they buffed its ad which wasnt the issue.

The item is good-ish now, but not for its intended purposes as you outlined.

And the shield change is hardly a buff even if you build as much hp as you can

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

And yet they never buffed the hp on steraks, they buffed its ad which wasnt the issue.

The item is good-ish now, but not for its intended purposes as you outlined.

And the shield change is hardly a buff even if you build as much hp as you can

75% bonus health? That's a huge amount.

If you build Titanic (450), Black Cleaver (300), Warmogs (850), Sterak's (400), and Spirit Visage (450), you have 2400 bonus health. 75% of that is an 1800 health shield. That's nuts.

LyingOnLine2 votes

And only Darius might ever build that, in the extreme super late game.

SquashCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eY5EaX3P,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-17T17:22:30.009+0000)

75% bonus health? That's a huge amount.

If you build Titanic (450), Black Cleaver (300), Warmogs (850), Sterak's (400), and Spirit Visage (450), you have 2400 bonus health. 75% of that is an 1800 health shield. That's nuts.

Thats a shitball build that only the heaviest of juggernauts would consider (darius, nasus minus the hydra and tf for bc, garen). Also, the shield used to give 30% MAX HP. Level 18 darius was guaranteed a little under 700 hp shield for steraks with just his base hp alone.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Thats a shitball build that only the heaviest of juggernauts would consider (darius, nasus minus the hydra and tf for bc, garen). Also, the shield used to give 30% MAX HP. Level 18 darius was guaranteed a little under 700 hp shield for steraks with just his base hp alone.

You said "it's not much of a buff even if you build as much HP as you can".

The build I presented is with a large chunk of HP, while sacrificing as little AD as possible. And Sterak's works fine in it.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eY5EaX3P,comment-id=0003000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-17T19:10:42.849+0000)

You said "it's not much of a buff even if you build as much HP as you can".

The build I presented is with a large chunk of HP, while sacrificing as little AD as possible. And Sterak's works fine in it.

The build you presented is intellectual AIDS, this conversation is over.

Doctor Jarvis2 votes

Completely agree, especially with the helm. The passive is actually pretty strong against people like Teemo, and I have built it to shut down certain AP carries. But its just so much less exciting to build outside that. I know they want tank items to prioritize the resistances, which is why they gave us Stoneplate and didn't do anything to Zz'Rot, but I still don't like it.

FooDang2 votes

Both Darius and Nasus benifit from the SV passive so I don't know why you say it's generalized. It just does so well with them, it's pretty much a core item vs AP.

Partholonian1 votes

If you're building it on Darius and Nasus, it's not completely generic, it's because it synergizes with their kits (specifically, their self heals). Same for Mundo, Volibear, Garen, Gragas, Aatrox, Swain, Zac etc.

If you're also building it all the time in preference to any other MR item on Amumu, Galio, Rammus, Nautilus, Poppy and Malphite, who are tanky in ways that don't specifically benefit from SV, then that might be more of a concern.

Sustain is a common feature of tanks, juggernauts and bruisers, but not quite a universal one. It's when the champions that don't have it are taking SV anyway that it starts to look like it may not be niche enough, it may just have too good a statline. If you can literally waste its passive and still have a good item, then the whole thing is probably not balanced for champions that make full use of it.

P.S. Worth noting that Zac is weak anyway, even on a patch where his #1 core item is OP.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

item 3194 is useful against more the cass and ryze.

Ahri burst is fairly weakened by it, since all of her spells except Charm use different instances of damage.

Syndra ult will be reduced by it.

Swain dots reduced by it.

It's kinda underrated, I think. Certainly niche, but underrated.

50000000000000001 votes

Adaptive Helm is actually more generally useful than just as a counter against spell-spam mages. "UNIQUE: Taking magic damage from a spell or effect reduces all subsequent magic damage taken from that spell or effect by 15% for 4 seconds." This means you'll reduce all DoTs as well as on-hit effects.

Champions like Warwick(Q has 6 second base cooldown at all ranks, which goes down to 3.6 seconds with 40% CDR, and on-hit magic damage), Kog'Maw (on-hit magic damage on W), Teemo (on-hit and shroom), and Singed (poison trail) come to mind immediately. There's also Anivia (E has 4 second base cooldown, and ult is DPS), Ahri (W has 3 hits, and ultimate can hit up to 3 times), Amumu (W is persistent and E has low cooldown), Annie (ultimate has DoT, and Tibbers autoatttacks do magic damage), Aurelion stars, Azir soldier autos, Bard empowered autos, Brand burn, Cassiopeia poisons and twin fang, Cho'Gath on-hit damage, Corki (autos, valkyrie, and gatling gun), Dr. Mundo (cleaver spam), Elise spiderlings, Evelynn Q, Fiddlesticks (Drain and dark winds), Galio Q, Heimer (turrets and probably also rockets), Jax (ultimate passive), Karthus (Q spam and E), Katarina (mostly ultimate, but with resets, she'll spam her other abilities too), Kayle autos, Kennen ult, Lulu passive, Malzahar's everything except Q, Maokai (Q goes down to 5 base cooldown, and E does DoT, and is often stacked), Morgana W, Nasus E (for AP only), Nautilus (W and E), Rammus (passive and ult), Rumble (basically everything), Ryze, Shaco box, Shyvanna's (burnout and %HP on-hit), Sona (Q spam late), Syndra (Q and R), Tahm Kench (ult passive on-hit), Taliyah (Q and E, if you pop it), Trundle ultimate, Udyr (if Phoenix), Vladimir (Q and W), Volibear ult, Xerath ult, Zac (W spam), Ziggs (Q spam and minefield), Zilean (double bomb), and Zyra plants. There are also items like Liandry's, Sunfire (although it does laughable damage now), or thornmail. Wit's End too, if anyone builds it.

There are a lot of spells that do magic damage on multiple hits.

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