@Riot can ANYONE other than Stashu rework Cassiopeia

Scarborough Fair·Nov 27, 2014·60 votes·3,658 views

I'm actually really tired of putting to words how irresponsible he is so I'm just gonna paste "Scampy (NA)"'s comment

"...and no, it's not because of communication issues or weak release power levels leaving a sour taste in our mouths. We're not in 3rd grade, stop treating us like angry children who don't know what they want. We're not petty enough to be this adamant about hating something if we don't really, really hate it. There are so many better ways to control a champion's scaling, and clearing out Aspect of the Serpent would leave a huge space for a creative passive. You could reintroduce Deadly Cadence (one of the coolest passives this game ever had), you could give her bonuses for poisoning multiple enemies at once, give stacking debuffs based on how long a champ is poisoned and have those debuffs become exacerbated when she lands X twin fangs on the target, etc.

I still don't get why you want an evolve passive on Cass in the first place. I'm still hoping you'll realize it is pretty much universally despised, but I'm also becoming cynical enough as this process goes on to know I shouldn't hold my breath. Your whole "Oh don't worry, I just know better than you!" tone is coming across loud and clear.

And don't even think about doing the whole "Oh well it's hard to have a discussion when you're all so mean" thing Rioters sometimes do. More often than not that's a valid point, but not here. You've blatantly ignored our distaste for the new passive, disregarded our dislike of the E-focused playstyle (when poison amp is on the E, it's still an E-focused playstyle), cherrypicked comments that agree with you and avoided those that don't, responded to complaints with "I see your point!" but neglected to do anything in response to said complaints, talked to us like we're too immature to know what we want, responded to fair critique by disagreeing with players on how they should be enjoying the champion, and have been doing all of those things for MONTHS. I'm sorry if things got a bit "passionate" for you, but you don't get to play the victim here.

64 Comments

ScampyNov 27, 201432 votes

Hey that's a thing I said. Well as long as I'm forum famous, here's a totally awesome kit I came up with. I call it...

Riot Stashu, the Man with the Plan

Passive--Clouded Judgement Stashu's obsession with his own ideas prevents him from accepting outside input, and actively smothers new ideas. Stashu is unable to buy wards or trinkets, but he can attack and destroy his own team's wards for 15 Gold each.

Q--Noxious Ego (Active) Stashu creates a zone around him that explodes after a short delay. Enemies hit by the explosion take 80% of their current health as true damage over 4 seconds. Sounds OP, but it's totally okay though. Damage-over-time spells are weak and lame and people won't appreciate it.

W--Denial (Active) Whenever Stashu responds to a post, he systematically avoids answering any dissenting opinions. For the next 3 seconds, if Stashu would take damage greater than 10% of his current health, he instead heals for half that damage.

E--Learn to Love It (Active) Stashu replaces target allied champion's passive with a way better passive. You'll see! It's totally a good idea! Inflicted Passive--Aspect of the Suck Target champion is debuffed, dealing 50% reduced damage until the game timer has reached 45 minutes. After this point, target champion deals 3% bonus damage with single target abilities.

R--Surprise Rework! (Active) Stashu reworks target allied champion, reducing their spell ratios by half, increasing mana costs by 75%, and disabling their passive. This effect lasts until Stashu realizes that his rework isn't going to work, which is calculated in seconds as the number of successful casts of Denial times the number of forum posts begging for Aspect of the Serpent to be removed that Stashu has ignored. Good luck.

Hidden Passive--Listening to Feedback When playing with or against a Cassiopeia, Stashu removes himself from the game, leaving his team in a 4v5. He'll come back when you stop asking questions.

DreMLoKNov 28, 20149 votes

10/10 take my money

Agent JhinNov 28, 20144 votes

Hey that's a thing I said. Well as long as I'm forum famous, here's a totally awesome kit I came up with. I call it...

Riot Stashu, the Man with the Plan

Passive--Clouded Judgement Stashu's obsession with his own ideas prevents him from accepting outside input, and actively smothers new ideas. Stashu is unable to buy wards or trinkets, but he can attack and destroy his own team's wards for 15 Gold each.

Q--Noxious Ego (Active) Stashu creates a zone around him that explodes after a short delay. Enemies hit by the explosion take 80% of their current health as true damage over 4 seconds. Sounds OP, but it's totally okay though. Damage-over-time spells are weak and lame and people won't appreciate it.

W--Denial (Active) Whenever Stashu responds to a post, he systematically avoids answering any dissenting opinions. For the next 3 seconds, if Stashu would take damage greater than 10% of his current health, he instead heals for half that damage.

E--Learn to Love It (Active) Stashu replaces target allied champion's passive with a way better passive. You'll see! It's totally a good idea! Inflicted Passive--Aspect of the Suck Target champion is debuffed, dealing 50% reduced damage until the game timer has reached 45 minutes. After this point, target champion deals 3% bonus damage with single target abilities.

R--Surprise Rework! (Active) Stashu reworks target allied champion, reducing their spell ratios by half, increasing mana costs by 75%, and disabling their passive. This effect lasts until Stashu realizes that his rework isn't going to work, which is calculated in seconds as the number of successful casts of Denial times the number of forum posts begging for Aspect of the Serpent to be removed that Stashu has ignored. Good luck.

Hidden Passive--Listening to Feedback When playing with or against a Cassiopeia, Stashu removes himself from the game, leaving his team in a 4v5. He'll come back when you stop asking questions.

lol laughed so hard reading this because the champ is so balanced and his spells are too OP

yellowbricksNov 27, 201431 votes

If only brackhar still worked at riot, he would just slap stashu and use his superior designer skills to get cass back to what she once was.

KingsgraveNov 28, 20141 votes

If only brackhar still worked at riot, he would just slap stashu and use his superior designer skills to get cass back to what she once was.

he made the original mess that was NIdalee tho

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20149 votes

But he made the original Cass, and understands that she was a fast, DPS alternative to Anivia's slow burst condition mage. Apply condition (poison and chilled, respectively, then benefit - repeat). TBH he'd be perfect for coming in and fixing this as long as they don't brainwash him in to this evolving "aspect of the serpent" trash.

Kowe The EwokNov 27, 201430 votes

On a sidenote. Cassiopeia's popularity is at an all time low. After Urgot she is the least popular champion ingame. There are more than 120 champions the community would take rather than her. http://www.lolking.net/champions/ http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/by-global-popularity

It's less about her powerlevel than how 1 dimensional and blunt she has become. This passive and overloading of E are horrible.

2pudge1cupNov 27, 201416 votes

This rework was pushed solely for the shurima event. It was unnecessary since by every metric cass was a balanced champ as she was.

LongFur FoxNov 27, 201411 votes

Gonna take the bait here and try to explain. The passive might not fit thematically but most passives does not fit thematically (deadly cadence is one of them.... and that includes the name of it). Second off while the discussion has stayed civil for longer than anyone would have guessed at this point it is impossible to do anything because some very vocal people will not stop shouting and ignoring any kind of discussion before stashu says "ok my bad let's make her a late game bully and remove e". I know there are a few people who dislike her new direction willing to have a discussion but unfortunately you are not as loud.

On her passive then it is going to get changed. They had a ton of changes they said so wait a patch or two and we will see them. I think the main reason he is not responding right now is because he already pushed for those changes for the next pbe patch so they are going to appear no matter what. After that you can then say whatever you want and he even guaranteed that he will find a new passive if this one turns out to not work.

Now give the man a chance to get some pbe iterations out before we begin crying and make it impossible to have a discussion.

Kowe The EwokNov 27, 201414 votes

Many of us already have already tried the PBE changes:

Q is weaker on his own than now. Nerfed yet again.

Hitting Q takes playerskill (prediction due to delay) Hitting an enemy with E does not takes playerskill on your side, it requires your opponent to make a mistake.

Thus: Playerskill of the new Cassiopeia is unrewarding. Your good plays are meaningless due to jokingly low damage unless followed up by your enemy screwing up.

The passive still is not contructive, it remains a tool to worsen your early game for the cost of a lategame which will never happen.

Other passives grant their champions awesome powers, hell even Urgots passive (reduces ability damage by 15%) is a million times more fun than Cassiopeia's reverse circumcision.

GavranNov 27, 20143 votes

I defy you to name 15 passives that objectively offer more than Cass's. There are a few champions that have major defining aspects in their passive, but there are tons that are underwhelming mechanically and (especially) from a gameplay perspective.

Kowe The EwokNov 27, 201411 votes

1Yasuo 2Annie 3Lucien 4Galio 5Rammus 6Malphite 7Vel Koz 8Karthus 9Nidalee 10Nautilus 11Nasus 12Singed 13Zed 14Poppy 15Warwick

On a sidenote: As a compensation for Cassios passive she got her ratios gutted and cooldown increased. Her passive is a hoax.

GavranNov 27, 20142 votes

I don't think every stat conversion passive is compelling. Galio I'll grant because it's what makes him work mid. Rammus and Singed just get minor benefits from items they need to build anyway. Nautilus I wouldn't say is defining, but it does show up in gameplay so I guess that's good enough. Same with a few others. Don't agree with WW and Zed but there's not much point nitpicking, you left out several I'd have included.

Anyway, to your sidenote, that's sort of my point. Deadly Cadence wasn't very thematic or very good for gameplay. This is Riot giving Cass a new-style gameplay/character defining passive.

I totally sympathize if you simply don't like the late game fantasy and you're bummed that your champion is being pushed in that direction. But her passive is still objectively better/more interesting than something like Wukong's. And Riot is trying to make passives more meaningful. Look at Garen and Shyvana.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20149 votes

Deadly Cadence wasn't very thematic or very good for gameplay.

Get out of my face.

GavranNov 28, 20141 votes

Excellent counterpoint. Really, I'm floored by your maturity and wisdom.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20145 votes

Three months of being ignored at best and belittled at worst. You really think many people have any reserves of patience left?

You, along with Stashu, seem to have little idea of what's actually upsetting people about the rework. Instead, you just intently focus on your twisted sense of her identity - one that's not up for debate. She had one before the rework, one that had given her a small but loyal playerbase and 180'ing that was completely inappropriate for what was meant to be a small scale rework.

You lack a grasp of what's really problematic about this whole ordeal, and the best think you can do is to see yourself out.

GavranNov 28, 20142 votes

Oh I know what's problematic for you. You're scared of change, and all you care about is her power. My posts have been for the benefit of the people who want a healthy Cassiopeia in a healthy game.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20143 votes

You're a joke who understands nothing.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20144 votes

You're a joke who understands nothing.

DeathToEcchiNov 28, 20142 votes

On a sidenote: As a compensation for Cassios passive she got her ratios gutted and cooldown increased. Her passive is a hoax.

Her passive is supposed to be way to keep late-game scaling without her still being a lane bully. Unless you think this game needs to keep still more hyper-scaling lane bullies?

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20144 votes

Except she didn't hyper-scale before. Her mid game tapered off in to her late game, which was just pretty average as far as mages go.

And her passive isn't really that great for her abilities, considering they don't really use AP that well, her main DPS has reset timer that subverts CDR and she doesn't really have the mana support to cast E repeatedly enough to match life stealing with the E heal unless you spend all your money on making that happen. I say "all" because you probably won't have very much to work with unless you're playing against bots.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20149 votes

Basically, your sidenote is everything anyone advocating the rework fails to notice.

Yeah, you get 25% CDR for "free", but your cooldowns all went up enough that getting max CDR brings them roughly to where they were for pre-rework initially.

And 30% bonus AP is cool, only if you are good at using AP.

GavranNov 28, 20141 votes

Of course her bases were altered. Did you think the rework was meant to be a massive buff? Cass wasn't too weak before the rework. She might've even been too strong, though I'll grant most people never experienced that unless it was a bot doing it to them. Every champion whose kit provides them with a strong special "thing" like that pays for it in the bases. Riot doesn't want champions that always are the best at something, they want champions that can, if successful, be the best at something. That's always been their philosophy with hyper scaling.

And I'll say it again because I don't know if I've said it in this little sub discussion before or not, but I totally agree the Live iteration of her passive is unfulfilling. I'm not convinced it's worse than Deadly Cadence, but I'm not someone who plays a lot of Cass so I'm not suffering the difficulty of dealing with change, only comparing them purely objectively. (And the subjective IS important here.) But the current version is not the final version. Stashu has expressed interest in it being more than just numbers. He's already finished a version with more than numbers AND said that he isn't done yet, knows he can do better, but just wants to get that out to make things better for now and to let people get a taste for it.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20144 votes

If the current version is not the final version, why is it on Live?

You're clamoring over yourself just like he is. Remove yourself.

MartyrofsandNov 28, 20143 votes

The only one that needs to remove themselves from this conversation is you and the rest of the people like you who keep clamoring for things that both Stashu, and Morello have said are not going to happen.

She is not going to get her Q poke harassp playstyle back. This rework is not going to be reverted. E is going to be the most important aspect of playing her, either due to spam ordue to applying poison amp.

Those of you crying for the rework to be reverted, for Q to have its damage buffed, for the passive to be completely scrapped, are adding absolutely nothing to the discussion of cassio and you deserve to be ignored. These things are gone and bitching about it at this point is like a toddler throwing a temper tantum and frankly Stashu needs to keep doing what he has been, IE ignoring you fit while addressing those who are trying to be constructive.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20145 votes

She doesn't need are harass focused skillset to have all of her abilities feel worthwhile.

There's nothing to add to the current direction of discussion because it's trash, it's proven itself to be trash and still it's not being taken out.

There is no possible constructive addition to any discussion to Aspect of the Serpent. It's dead in the water.

MartyrofsandNov 28, 20144 votes

Nothing positive, dead in the water, useless, and can't work is Cassio's passive right?

Then how do you explain people like King Cobra, Voyboy, Scarra, etc etc playing her at the highest levels of competition and having a great deal of success with both her and her "worthless" passive.

You are willfully ignoring facts in order to spin you own brand of worthless ignorance in an attempt to get what you want. You are the one who is not worth talking to about this topic and you are the one who is at dead in the water as you claim Cassio's passive to be.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20145 votes

...her overall win rate and pick rate has plummeted and you counter that with "oh hey this pro player played her once and didn't lose"?

I'm not the one willfully ignoring facts here.

yellowbricksNov 28, 20147 votes

Nothing positive, dead in the water, useless, and can't work is Cassio's passive right?

Then how do you explain people like King Cobra, Voyboy, Scarra, etc etc playing her at the highest levels of competition and having a great deal of success with both her and her "worthless" passive.

You are willfully ignoring facts in order to spin you own brand of worthless ignorance in an attempt to get what you want. You are the one who is not worth talking to about this topic and you are the one who is at dead in the water as you claim Cassio's passive to be.

Nice appeal to authority there, buddy. Pros can do whatever they want because they're pros. They can overlook the fact that the passive is shit design because they don't care about such things, they're playing this video game for a living.

I don't have such a commitment to this game, nor does 99% of the people here. It's a video game first, I care more for things that are fun rather than "if you farm like a WoW nerd for 50 minutes you could be useful". Passives should not dictate gameplay in such a strong way like this. It should not be used to put your early game in a strangle-hold until you poison enough champs to grow stronger (???). It doesn't even make sense. Her passive should be about debilitating the enemy, while restoring some of her ratios that were taken away for the passive (that's the best part. Hey, you get 30% more AP! We just took half your ratios away to compensate. BALANCE). It would be one thing if this was a whole new champ, let the people have their boring farm fest champ, and let us have our cool snake champ that has effective poisons AND fangs. But no, riot outright deleted a good champ, and replaced her with said boring farm fest champ, so now the cool gameplay that she had is now gone and replaced by a mangled mess of stat balls and gates because apparently she was "Too lane bully" or some crap even though she was perfectly fine for years.

But I've seen your posts staunchly defending this junk in other threads, so I'm probably wasting my time with this. Just think about it, don't look to pros or any streamers, just use your own brain. How do you feel about this passive?

MartyrofsandNov 29, 20141 votes

But I've seen your posts staunchly defending this junk in other threads, so I'm probably wasting my time with this. Just think about it, don't look to pros or any streamers, just use your own brain. How do you feel about this passive?

Um if you are interested in my opinions on this rework and how they have changed over time I suggest you look at....

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/Wvy1Z2d5-lets-talk-cassiopeia-stashu?comment=00080001

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/A9MgbKkB-riot-care-to-explain-why-youve-entirely-abandoned-cassiopeia-in-418?show=flat&page=6

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4851396&highlight=cassiopeia&page=94

Just a few of the earliest ones after this rework came out. I've ran the gambit in hating this rework with a passion, to calling riot out saying they have no pride in their work, and that this rework is a insult. The change in my opinion came when I had my first conversation with King Cobra and actually tested what he said in game. In the end I found out he was right about how strong she can be with E spam, and I realized continuing to deny that strength would be nothing but stupidity, something many people seem to some throwing around.

Here is the thing. Do I like this Cassio rework? Not really no. I, like many here, played Cassio as a Q poke play style and it being gone does kinda suck. The difference between me and those like you? When Morello and Stashu came out and directly said "Q poke play style is not coming back" I didn't continue to try and beat a dead horse in the round about way of saying "change the passive and buff her ratios" and wonder why I am getting ignored. I would of gone a significantly different direction had I been the one reworking Cassio, along the line of making E a 5-10 sec CD that refreshed her DoTs while applying a new one that increased her DoT damage as well as changed her ult to doing it's damage over the duration of the stun/slow and enabling it to be buffed by the E amp as well.

Thing is I'm not the guy who is doing this rework, I don't have the control and screaming for riot to take a path they are out right stated they are not going to take is not helpful, or beneficial to the discussion. Instead I accept what they have said and instead I am focusing on trying to provide what feed back I can to make this rework of Cassio the best it can be. That means not throwing out worthless complaints because the direction isn't what I want it to be. It's something you, and many others like you need to consider doing if you truly want to make this rework the best it can be.

chumblerNov 29, 20142 votes

But I've seen your posts staunchly defending this junk in other threads, so I'm probably wasting my time with this. Just think about it, don't look to pros or any streamers, just use your own brain. How do you feel about this passive?

Um if you are interested in my opinions on this rework and how they have changed over time I suggest you look at....

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/Wvy1Z2d5-lets-talk-cassiopeia-stashu?comment=00080001

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/A9MgbKkB-riot-care-to-explain-why-youve-entirely-abandoned-cassiopeia-in-418?show=flat&page=6

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4851396&highlight=cassiopeia&page=94

Just a few of the earliest ones after this rework came out. I've ran the gambit in hating this rework with a passion, to calling riot out saying they have no pride in their work, and that this rework is a insult. The change in my opinion came when I had my first conversation with King Cobra and actually tested what he said in game. In the end I found out he was right about how strong she can be with E spam, and I realized continuing to deny that strength would be nothing but stupidity, something many people seem to some throwing around.

Here is the thing. Do I like this Cassio rework? Not really no. I, like many here, played Cassio as a Q poke play style and it being gone does kinda suck. The difference between me and those like you? When Morello and Stashu came out and directly said "Q poke play style is not coming back" I didn't continue to try and beat a dead horse in the round about way of saying "change the passive and buff her ratios" and wonder why I am getting ignored. I would of gone a significantly different direction had I been the one reworking Cassio, along the line of making E a 5-10 sec CD that refreshed her DoTs while applying a new one that increased her DoT damage as well as changed her ult to doing it's damage over the duration of the stun/slow and enabling it to be buffed by the E amp as well.

Thing is I'm not the guy who is doing this rework, I don't have the control and screaming for riot to take a path they are out right stated they are not going to take is not helpful, or beneficial to the discussion. Instead I accept what they have said and instead I am focusing on trying to provide what feed back I can to make this rework of Cassio the best it can be. That means not throwing out worthless complaints because the direction isn't what I want it to be. It's something you, and many others like you need to consider doing if you truly want to make this rework the best it can be.

Except the direction is wrong and the justification they gave for it is a lie and a bad joke. There is absolutely no reason to roll over and accept the direction they're terribly trying to force her in. The way to make this rework the best it can be is to not do it at all.

MartyrofsandNov 29, 20141 votes

Except the direction is wrong and the justification they gave for it is a lie and a bad joke. There is absolutely no reason to roll over and accept the direction they're terribly trying to force her in. The way to make this rework the best it can be is to not do it at all.

You may not agree with making her into a single target hyper carry but there are a few realities about this rework that you need to accept.

1--Nothing like the new Cassio has ever existed in this game. They have never tried to make a single target AP mage that does constant damage like this Cassio. They have made plenty of long range poke mages that harass at range until they all in, Ziggs/Xerath/Syndra/etc.

2--The design itself while no where near as polished as it could be, does actually work, and it's working at highest levels of competition. Trying to deny that is silly.

At this point you are screaming "rework doesn't work remove it" and that does absolutely nothing. It isn't going to change things and it isn't going to suddenly make riot decide to make Cassio into the long range poison poke mage you want.

chumblerNov 29, 20142 votes

Except the direction is wrong and the justification they gave for it is a lie and a bad joke. There is absolutely no reason to roll over and accept the direction they're terribly trying to force her in. The way to make this rework the best it can be is to not do it at all.

You may not agree with making her into a single target hyper carry but there are a few realities about this rework that you need to accept.

1--Nothing like the new Cassio has ever existed in this game. They have never tried to make a single target AP mage that does constant damage like this Cassio. They have made plenty of long range poke mages that harass at range until they all in, Ziggs/Xerath/Syndra/etc.

2--The design itself while no where near as polished as it could be, does actually work, and it's working at highest levels of competition. Trying to deny that is silly.

At this point you are screaming "rework doesn't work remove it" and that does absolutely nothing. It isn't going to change things and it isn't going to suddenly make riot decide to make Cassio into the long range poison poke mage you want.

If they want to do that, they should make a new champion, not force this trash on Cassiopeia. Also I'm not going to stop saying they should revert the rework, because that is the correct thing to do.

GavranNov 28, 20142 votes

Gee you're right, they should just stop development since the game is Live. It's not like this whole thing is a rework of something once considered final. It's not like Riot has explicitly said that not only is the Live version not final, but the version going to be pushed to Live soon won't be either.

But yeah. No point discussing this further with you clearly.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20144 votes

No point of you discussing this with anyone, considering how ignorant you are.

XonraNov 28, 20147 votes

I defy you to name 15 passives that objectively offer more than Cass's. There are a few champions that have major defining aspects in their passive, but there are tons that are underwhelming mechanically and (especially) from a gameplay perspective.

I can name 30

So first, Cass' passive stacks and gives bonuses when she poisons champions or kills non champs with poison

You said passive that objectively offer more, so...

Aatrox - It friggin brings him back to Life, offers quite a lot
Zac - See Aatrox
Anivia - Yup - Squishy mage, two lives, seems to offer a lot to me
Zilean - gives people free XP if they are even near him. That seems to offer more than the potential for stacks
Akali - She gets extra damage or spell vamp by just buying items
Annie - Her abilities friggin stun people <_<
Braum - His auto attacks (and his q), his teammate's auto attacks can stun people...
Mundo - He heals himself all the friggin time. Doesn't need to do anything, just heals more.
Eve - Yeah...goes invis and regens mana for being invis and....walking around.
Galio - Old school anti-mage who gets ap for build MR, just like that, free stats.
Hecarim - Again, free stats for building stuff he would have anyways
Rammus - See above
Karthus - Annoys you, still tries killing you even after he dies
Malphite - Ask anyone who lanes against him how annoying his passive is can be
Mao - Heals himself the more you cast spells by just auto attacking something.

I can even keep going

Morde - His whole schtick is built around his passive and while he has a few issues his passive isn't the problem
Morgana - Here have some free spellvamp
Nasus - Here have some free life steal
Orianna - This passive is one of the reasons she is so great at farming and so annoying 20) Poppy - That's right, Poppy...I just wrote Poppy here. Poppy has a better passive currently than Cass does
Ryze - It's Ryze
Shyvana - She gets free armor AND mr...which is even more if she ults. Yup, way better.
Thresh - Even his "stacking" is better and more reliable.
Tristana - Not only offers more but even offers more late game, and her late game is just...hit level 18.
Yasuo - This goes without saying but...it proves the point
Warwick - Yyyyyeeeeah <_< By a lot
Volibear - He might as well have a Rez after killing him passive because if you get him low you will need a lot more to get him low again.
Twitch - Cass wishes her auto attacks "poisoned" her targets
Twisted Fate - Even his new much worse than his old passive is better. Farm...get free extra gold.
Singed - Free stats for building him like you would build him anyways

So yeah...I skipped a few purposely but I could keep going.

GavranNov 28, 20142 votes

I admit I may have used too strong of wording with "defy". My intent was to get people past that "Yeah I could do that, but why would I waste my time for this clown?" feeling but I was a bit too successful. I don't disagree there are better passives out there, and in fact the list(s) made me think of a few I wouldn't otherwise have considered. That said there are also a LOT you listed that I don't think are remotely better (remember, champion strength can be tuned at any time. Champion gameplay only gets tweaked in reworks. Therefore, OP-ness is a poor way to rate a passive. Fun or creating interesting/unique gameplay on the other hand, is invaluable.)

For that reason I consider Cass's new passive (particularly future variations on it that are better than the Live version) to be objectively better than any passive that simply gives free stats. I can hardly believe that you think TF and Zilean have good passives, unless you are rating them on NOTHING other than "OP-ness". For the record I think Deadly Cadence was a lot better than free stats passives too.

Coincidentally Poppy passive and ult are both like, top 5 contenders for strongest abilities (of their type) in the game, and is probably the most powerful hypercarry in the game. She'd be broken if she wasn't so... Poppy.

ElphrihaimNov 28, 20143 votes

The passive might not fit thematically but most passives does not fit thematically (deadly cadence is one of them.... and that includes the name of it)

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Deadly Cadence does sorta fit thematically with Cassiopeia.

As a back-stage diplomat, she must constantly be playing with fumes, noxious and vile substances. She has to establish herself a rhythm and play the crowds, all the while making an inevitably deadly fall for her opponent-- due to that very cadence that she built up under a tight veil.

So... how does Deadly Cadence, or "lethal rhythm" or "dance of death" not fit a diplomat? I don't really have enough emotion on Cassiopeia herself to really say one way how much of this is warranted (But I believe that it is warranted, I'm just not sure to what degree), but I can most certainly say that Deadly Cadence could easily be argued as thematic for Cassiopeia both as a lady of influence and as a mechanic to make her playstyle unique.

LongFur FoxNov 28, 20141 votes

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Deadly Cadence does sorta fit thematically with Cassiopeia.

As a back-stage diplomat, she must constantly be playing with fumes, noxious and vile substances. She has to establish herself a rhythm and play the crowds, all the while making an inevitably deadly fall for her opponent-- due to that very cadence that she built up under a tight veil.

So... how does Deadly Cadence, or "lethal rhythm" or "dance of death" not fit a diplomat? I don't really have enough emotion on Cassiopeia herself to really say one way how much of this is warranted (But I believe that it is warranted, I'm just not sure to what degree), but I can most certainly say that Deadly Cadence could easily be argued as thematic for Cassiopeia both as a lady of influence and as a mechanic to make her playstyle unique.

If we go into story to make it fit and then go on a leg and tries to make it sound like she needs a "rhythm" when she is a diplomat sure we can do that. We can also give her any number of passive like a mundo passive since as a diplomat she should be able to recover from failures. I never doubted we could make it work like that but honestly then her current passive fits much better with embracing her curse (not saying i am a fan of passives based on simple story hooks). The reason i say this is because i feel many people are citing her passive not fitting her theme as the reason to change it or revert it but i honestly think it is far more based in not liking it (which is a valid reason) and not fitting with her theme just happens to be a semi reasonable reason to scrap it.

ElphrihaimNov 28, 20141 votes

If we go into story to make it fit and then go on a leg and tries to make it sound like she needs a "rhythm" when she is a diplomat sure we can do that. We can also give her any number of passive like a mundo passive since as a diplomat she should be able to recover from failures.

Sure. But then it wouldn't fit with the rest of her kit (Deadly Cadence DID fit as it supported bullying attempts).

I never doubted we could make it work like that but honestly then her current passive fits much better with embracing her curse (not saying i am a fan of passives based on simple story hooks).

But her current passive is an absolute drag gameplay wise. Deadly Cadence fit with her gameplay and had vague story relation, but Aspect of the Serpent not only has that vague story relation with a story that people didn't like but also isn't done well.

The reason i say this is because i feel many people are citing her passive not fitting her theme as the reason to change it or revert it but i honestly think it is far more based in not liking it (which is a valid reason) and not fitting with her theme just happens to be a semi reasonable reason to scrap it.

I think it's both. Aspect of the Serpent does not really work with the rest of her kit, thus it breaks the theme set by the rest of it. It ties in to a short snippet of lore that people do not like.

d: But that's my opinion as the opposite seems to be yours, so I suppose the appropriate phrase is 'we will have to agree to disagree'.

LongFur FoxNov 28, 20142 votes

I never really thought we would end up agreeing. I am just tired of seeing people complain about her passive for the wrong reasons. I do however agree that her current passive is boring and hope that it might be changed in the next couple of patches.

Pvt Yong TaiNov 27, 201411 votes

I am not a Cass player, but rather an older avid Veigar player. I had to quit playing Veigar because the meta shifted so heavily towards early-mid game champs that I couldn't compete (games tend to be over in less than 40 minutes unlike in Season 2, where you would often see 45+ minute games). Although Cass gets a huge power spike late game, that late game never shows up, a little bit like Veigar. In the current meta, she is unplayable. At least Veigar has a really strong and reliable stun/zone ability. Cass does not even have that.

To fix Cass, I'd say her early-mid game power would have to be relevant enough to be worth waiting out late game for, as she's always been a "late-game" champ, as far as I've heard. How to go about doing that, I don't know. You Cass players know what you want. But overall, until the meta shifts towards longer games again, neither Cass nor Veigar are going to be great choices.

GavranNov 27, 201410 votes

Saying that you're not acting like angry children doesn't mean you aren't acting like angry children.

Things I've seen "you" do:

Spam about Cass in other threads
Call for Stashu's termination
Call Stashu incompetent because you disagree with him
Spam downvote anyone who supports the changes because contrasting opinions are "wrong" to you
Tacitly ignore the existence of those opinions by saying stuff like "universally despised"
Think hate is a reasonable emotion to feel about changes to a character in a video game, and not one that would only be felt by angry children

You don't deserve Stashu. You're lucky Riot as a company would rather have "passionate" players than reasonable behavior, and you're lucky Rioters like Stashu look over all the completely overblown vitriol to do anything more than make announcements.

Here's some free advice: E focus and the new passive are HERE TO STAY. If you want to continue having a voice about Cass, brainstorm ways within that framework that would make you happier. That's what the poison amp is. That's what the "non-numbers" passive benefits being talked about are.

AmightyTNov 28, 20146 votes

CertainlyT should do it. Say what you want of his kits, but he talks to us, and his kits are at least fun to use.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 201412 votes

I love CertainlyT but honestly, I don't think he's the right direction to go. He's good at making wild mechanics that do crazy plays. But that's not what Cassiopeia needs or is about. She was always great for her consistency and flexibility. Having an avenue of DPS early in the game is huge for a mage, who usually require loads of CDR to achieve anything similar (hey, Orianna).

The current kit is a wreck because it lacks that consistency. It has a steep power curve and forces you through hurdles for uninteresting rewards. Not to mention the totally out of whack ratios with the heavy insistence on AP stacking.

CertainlyT has great champions, and does great work. Stashu could learn a lot from him. But having some new, crazy mechanic would be just as awful as the evolving passive she's shackled with now. It's not what she needs and it's a totally perversion of her identity.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 20147 votes

I don't mind Stashu working on Cassiopeia...I just wish her rework is taken in the right direction that fits her identity is all.

I read a lot of his analysis on why the old Cassiopeia may be toxic, and I agree with them to an extent (though may I add, "oppressive lane-bully" kinda defines every single viable champion atm). The main issue then of course, is simply the direction of rework.

She was always great for her consistency and flexibility.

...I see what you did there...

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20147 votes

Pun aside, having multiple build paths is something sorely lacking from the new, butchered kit. And he's not interested in her identity. He's only interested in what he wants her identity to be.

And on Stashu, I was fine with him working on it after the initial release because it gave him a chance to rectify his mistakes, but he's thrown that back in the community's face with how condescending he is. He should have lost his chance a long time ago, and the longer they keep him on this project the more upset the community will become because he doesn't acknowledge their feedback with appropriate responses.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 20146 votes

No, the rework and updates don't even have anything to do with identity at all. They're being made purely for one thing and one thing only.

Balance at the expense of literally everything else.

I highly doubt even he intended Cassiopeia to become this mano-a-mano AP-brawler champion whose MO is to land a poison so she can "Fist of the North Star" her opponent to death with torso-sized fangs.

Want to know what her problem is right now? Skip to 35 seconds.. This is all she does now, but with torso-sized fangs. It's cool...........on Vi or Lee Sin.

Serpents EmbraceNov 28, 20142 votes

Pretty appropriate reference.

TBH even in the games I've played her and I've gotten to the point the Twin Fang casts do like 600 each (only in bot games, because bots are the only ones who allow that to happen) it doesn't feel rewarding. Killing something in two hits of E doesn't feel nice because it didn't happen because I did something well, I just reached a point in time and farm where that's just handed to me.