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The big hypocrisy of the "Military General fantasy"

Wolfeur··53 votes·4,196 views

This is mostly about Aatrox and Swain.

Since their releases, Aatrox and Swain's kits didn't match what their lores are supposed to make them: battle commanders and tacticians. These characters are meant to lead the battle, bringing strength and courage to their followers, as well as fear to the enemy, or controlling the battle from afar.

This fantasy is badass, obviously. Who doesn't want to be a god of war or the general of a strong empire? I see a lot of people asking for their favourite champ to finally bring with their kit this fantasy that they picture as incredibly badass, and I understand that.

##But…

There is something that they seem to forget: power budget. You cannot ask Aatrox to bring empowerment to his allies and give him incredible damage as well. The big thing that we tend to forget is that the "General fantasy" works on these few mechanics: ally empowerment and utility. Now tell me, what kind of role in LoL brings buffs to allies and non-direct combat mechanics?… Ah yes: Supports!

Yet, every time the idea of support Aatrox is brought to the table, who agrees? Support mains, sure, they'd love it! But people from other roles? Old mains of the champ? Definitely not…

"They don't want to rely on allies, they want to carry." Well guess what? (And now, I'm speaking directly to those guys) Supports carry games. So silence your shitty soloQ ego and accept the fact that the fantasy you're asking for is meant for support champs! A general doesn't go into the fray, he makes people go where he wants them to be. A god of war doesn't fight directly, he inspires and blesses allies and terrifies and curses enemies. You cannot ask for your champ to be an ally-buffing, solo-carrying, high damage champ, understood? So pick your side: solo carry OR General fantasy. But stop asking for both! And stop preventing support mains from having cool champs and fantasies, we would also like to have champs that feel powerful. Thank you!

######Sorry, it transformed a bit into a rant, I wasn't expecting that.

173 Comments

OurLestrade28 votes

I continue to push for a Noxian sergeant support who openly hates the wimps he's forced to work with. Sort of bothers me how even HotS has beaten LOL to having an officer support with Stukov (It's a bad sign when I'm more interested in a character in a game I haven't played in over a year than an upcoming champion in a game I play daily)

There's certainly an over abundance of support champions obsessed with love, peace and pretty things, as in all games :P

Wolfeur31 votes

Do you imagine a support that actually insults his ADC like it's a little bitch.

"IS THAT WAS YOU CALL DAMAGE? AND YOU WANT TO CARRY US, AH!" "GOD DAMMIT, YOU LITTLE SUCKER, I SAID “FORWARD!”" "DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT “FALLBACK” MEANS?" "FINALLY A KILL! IT'S NOT TOO EARLY!" "YOU JUST HAVE TO RIGHT-CLICK, HOW CAN YOU EVEN MESS THAT UP?"

mkyner25 votes

A drill sergeant character would be awesome.

"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU BUYING THAT THING FOR?" "DO YOU -LIKE- DYING?" "KEEP PLACING THOSE WARDS, THEY'LL DO MORE FOR THE TEAM THAN YOU EVER WILL." "THOUGHT THE JUNGLE WAS A PETTING ZOO, DID YA?" "STAY IN YOUR LANE!" "WALK IT OFF!" "DO YOU NEED -ME- TO CARRY -YOU-?"

AwesomeGuyDj18 votes

Now i can just play this guy to flame for me.

IcyPepper2 votes

Rito: "Odd. Player punishment has dropped by 70% since the release of our new champion." Flamers: "He does all the work for me!" Everyone else: "And we're okay with it!"

AceGeo11 votes

Kled voice

mkyner4 votes

Well, any Champion's dialogue read by Kled is a win.

Stalinium4 votes

I like it. Although real drill sergeants are usually more like

"YOU LIKE SUCKIN DICK PRIVATE?"

edit: They don't mean it as in you're bad at whatever you're doing...

Brascus9 votes

"STOP WRAPPING YOUR LIPS AROUND THE ENEMY CANNONS PRIVATE!"

Cavesloth2 votes

ALL THE YES! WES MUST HAVE IT!!! UPVOTE THIS SHIT.

Barcid4 votes

I did at one point suggest to a friend a carry-support in a way.

A support like Braum that would shield and protect an ally marked as her "charge" but if they took a certain amount of damage her stats would shift to favor an offensive charge in retaliation. They didn't like it, though. =\

Daxterr2 votes

Every time the ADC misses a minion he should say something. And there should be at least 20 different quotes for when it happens.

OurLestrade9 votes

{quoted}

Do you imagine a support that actually insults his ADC like it's a little bitch.

"IS THAT WAS YOU CALL DAMAGE? AND YOU WANT TO CARRY US, AH!" "GOD DAMMIT, YOU LITTLE SUCKER, I SAID “FORWARD!”" "DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT “FALLBACK” MEANS?" "FINALLY A KILL! IT'S NOT TOO EARLY!" "YOU JUST HAVE TO RIGHT-CLICK, HOW CAN YOU EVEN MESS THAT UP?"

I could watch the minimap and be incredibly passive aggressive at the same time, the dream is real :P

xToxicOsirisx5 votes

http://media-hearth.cursecdn.com/avatars/304/588/577.png

But a champ though

Arakadia1 votes

Sounds like a good deal of people like this, but it always seemed to cliche and not very unique or interesting by itself to me. For example, what would his kit be? You can't make a Noxian sergeant support who hates his soldiers the central theme to him or else you:

A): Have a regular human with a comical voice over but NOTHING special combat wise. B): Don't get to have any other interesting parts of his character except screaming and insults. Even Kled has Skaarl and his past with Noxus to make him more interesting. C): A really cliche, expected character who's entire focus seems to be around their voice over because its unlikely you'd ever play or design a support who actually hurts his own allies.

Wolfeur8 votes

It could be an overly strict military trainer from Demacia

Arakadia2 votes

But does that make a champion? Not really to me. There are tons of trainers in Demacia, and just being overly strict to where its funny does not make them a champion.

Wolfeur13 votes

We have a champion that is basically a scout with a blowgun and a mushroom addiction

Big Lincoln21 votes

nobody is asking for that for aatrox

ally buffing and high damage can exist in the same kit, at the expense of CC or durability. see abaddon

these support mains are getting awful uppity lately

Arakadia5 votes

The question is: Do Aatrox players want to lose CC or durability so they can feel more thematic with supporting their team?

Big Lincoln5 votes

not rly up to them what he gets

rework is probably going to emphasize him as an unkillable blood god

Bob the Toastr4 votes

I would much prefer the sustainy, AA based Aatrox that's really hard to kill if he's in range of you (because of lifesteal) than anything remotely supporty.

MonkeyMadness20 votes

I think you missed a very critical piece of Aatrox's lore if you think he should be a support...

At first, they could only watch in awe as this unknown hero cleaved through their enemies, his body and blade moving in unison as if one being. Soon, the warriors found themselves imbued with a potent thirst for battle. They followed Aatrox into the fray, each fighting with the furious strength of ten until they had won a most unlikely victory.

He's def not a support with this kind of lore. However, I think a nice buff for him would be some kind of team buff for anyone who assists in a kill he participates in. Like a small burst of attack speed, movespeed, and ap/ad. This would be thematically good and might actually make him relevant (which he currently is not).

Wolfeur6 votes

The big problem with Aatrox' current lore is that he's both warrior and commander. In game, he can't be both.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

I mean, all he needs is smthn akin to Gangplank old rally skill.

Luminier9 votes

Says who? Riot is all about pushing the limits and boundaries of champions with each new champion and VGU. I think it's definitely possible.

Arakadia4 votes

You can't give Aatrox strong dueling and bruiser power AND give him good support team fighting power. It would force one part of him to be significantly weaker than the other, or break his power budget and make him over powered.

Luminier2 votes

Again, says who? You never know.

Wolfeur3 votes

Says common sense. You can't give him everything…

Luminier5 votes

Right well if that's your only argument, then I shall take my leave. It can be done, it just has to be done right.

Aatrox can very well be an inspirational warrior who leaps into battle and inspires his allies. I think Jarvan does this well to a smaller degree. His E gives him and his allies a buff, and rewards him and his team for going in offensively. This can also be the case for Aatrox, maybe rewarding him for landing an ability, or leaping in and soaking aggro for his team, and being a visceral force to be reckoned with.

Wolfeur2 votes

They're not incompatible, but if you put both as central mechanics, one will have to be significantly weaker. Or they're both equally powerful but mediocre. Or they both good but everything else is bad. Or they're super restrictive and conditional and we'll start to encounter balancing problems and feast or famine mechanics

Luminier4 votes

That's the thing. Aggression is Aatrox's central mechanic. If he WAS supportive, it will be secondary and help his team win a teamfight through his aggression and visceral nature.

If you split supportive and damage-dealing, sure I can see where the power budget becomes unstable.

But the supportive nature being secondary would be fine.

Luminier10 votes

Take Kled for example. His ult is both offensive due to him charging in, and also supportive because it has his entire team following him into battle close behind, with a movement speed boost. And this is what I mean with Aatrox. He can be both offensive and give utility to his team, without making it broken.

Wolfeur3 votes

Yes, but Kled doesn't fulfill the fantasy of a strong general, and his ult is the only utility that he has.

Luminier5 votes

That's your opinion, though. I think he fulfills the fantasy great.

Wolfeur7 votes

I just see him as a crazy angry veteran, really.

Arakadia1 votes

Yes but that doesn't make him a good team fighter, he's still pretty bad at it. And it took up part of his dueling power.

If you give Aatrox an ult like Kled's, they will have to trim power elsewhere to compensate.

Luminier3 votes

Not a good team fighter? Really? His ult alone makes him a good team fighter.

Sure, but we still don't know what his rework will be like. Kled may have lost some dueling power due to his ult's budget, sure. But that doesn't mean he's a bad duelist by any means.

Quort3 votes

Aatrox doesn't command! He inspires!

I Main Swain11 votes

have you even read aatrox's lore? he wasnt a "commander", he was a warrior who inspired bloodlust into those he fought with. he didnt do any of that sitting in the back giving orders crap, he was in front of them all. swain i think could potentially work as a support (wouldnt be my preference but it could work), but aatrox's lore is of a frontliner who in his power inspires those who stand behind him, not command those between him and the enemy.

its actually not that hard to have a carry who also buffs allies. obviously it cant be too much but its 100% doable

Luminier7 votes

Exactly my points made in this thread summed up. Thank you.

DeathBurst9 votes

I don't want Aatrox or Swain support, but I DO want a NEW Support Champ that acts like a regal and commanding general and direct their allies. Something a bit like Azir, in personality, but with a real Support kit.

Ralanr10 votes

Personally I'd prefer more Kled in personality. Because I want a drill sergeant support.

Luminier7 votes

I don't play Swain, but I play a lot of Aatrox.

And I think people misinterpret the lore a lot for him. When the lore says that he tore through hordes of enemies, inspiring his allies, I don't think Riot meant in a literal game sense, but the fact that he was such a force for destruction just made his allies want to fight even more. I just think that Aatrox should have a lot of hyper-carry potential. Don't you always get inspired whenever you see a hyper-carry get fed and wipe the floor with the enemy? That is my take on it.

If this translates into game mechanics, I'd think that the more offensive Aatrox is, the better it is for his team.

For example: when his ult is active, he gains an aura, allowing allies to rally towards him and gain increased movement speed when moving towards Aatrox. This solidifies his identity as a front-line devastater, while still inspiring his allies. And I think this could be a potentially great balance to strike. Aatrox being a great teamfighter is something I would not be surprised with Riot in taking his new direction.

If Aatrox was supportive, he would not be like most supports in the game. His "support" would most likely be secondary effects. Primarily, he will be in the front line, dealing massive amounts of damage and eviscerating enemies. Maybe allies could be inspired in the forms of buffs as a reward for Aatrox playing aggressively.

Take Fiora for example. Her Ult is a very offensive ability, whilst also retaining her thematic as a duelist that weaves her blade gracefully in battle and has a keen mind for footwork and stances. Her payoff for either killing an enemy while it is active, or procing all 4 sides of the vitals gives her and her allies an AoE healing buff, and I think that's a great example for what Aatrox could potentially be. All of his abilities would be offensive, but some have good utility for his team as well, as a reward for the player that's playing Aatrox correctly.

RookPusher5 votes

The problem you have here is the image and reality.

In general, military leaders aren't hulking badasses that are eyeball to eyeball with the enemy. They're cold, calculating people who have more in common with academics than they do with soldiers on the ground. (in common, here, meaning in their day-to-day lives. Culturally, they're probably more alined with the front line.)

And rallying the troops, in this game, is more of the supports job. More people would understand that if they understood "support" but in a country that things it's acceptable to insult customer service people and janitors (because of salary) I don't expect people to acknowledge the role of the custodial employee. Supports should be given a lot more in the same of what you're suggesting here. Auras, group buffs, abilities that boost morale. Redemption does this. Heals and shields do this. We need to boost that presence.

He4rtkiller5 votes

War leader champions don't necessarily need to have many ally buffing abilities to fit the fantasy. Sivir is a bandit leader and the only leader-like ability is her ultimate. Then we have Ashe who is leader of her tribe in Freljord yet she doesn't have any ally buffing abilities but imo when she hits someone with her ultimate it's like she is giving a command to her allies to attack that target. I would like to see a champion that is a leader and a support, that would be very cool, tho I believe Karma is something like a general in her lore.

AceGeo3 votes

Kled

Onkel Malte3 votes

Have you heard of our lord and saviour Nasus

He's a librarian/tactician who actially excells in magical abilities contrary to his physical brother Renekton and somehow this champ ends up being an eternally farming splitpusher/juggernaut.

JinxGoesBoom3 votes

You know, I just played Kayn about an hour before reading this post and it just gave me a little idea.

What if we have a battle general who has a branching playstyle like Kahn?

Halfway through the game, like Kayn, he decides either

1: I'm gonna yell at people and give them buffs (be a support)

Or

2: Screw you sissies I'll just kill them myself (and be a tank or something)

I personally would love an idea like that.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

Why does orianna have all of these things

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