Karthus main here. About his nerf.

Señor Karthus··14 votes·1,478 views

I've played Karthus since I started playing the game. He has taken me from Bronze 3 to Gold 2 and I can say I've mastered him. I love him and I really like the fact that he is an unusual pick because people are not as used to play against him as with any other usual mid laner (which sometimes works against you because your team doesn't understand the huge advantage for a teamfight that me rushing in the middle of the enemy team means). This preseason, and especially with the introduction of Death Fire Touch it put him on a slightly better spot but still not something amazing or Brand-level. It felt just fine. He is still a late game Champion in a current early-game meta. This means that when I have lost this preseason, I've lost very badly. And when I've won, it has usually been very worked until I could get to late game. He is an immobile Champion whose only ways to escape a gank are: summoner 4 every 5 minutes and Wall of Pain. The nerf to his only tool to have any chance to escape a gank is not understandable. The nerf to his only tool to land a couple of well put Qs is not understandable. Do you even know how hard is to land those Qs on mobile Champions? And most of the time when you land them they hit a minion so the damage is halved. Wall of Pain was sometimes the only moment you could land a couple of isolated Qs on a Champion like that. And even then they usually still have some mobility left to run to safety. And then almost every other mid laner outranges him and pokes him much easier than he can. Even when you try to just farm instead of poke the enemy, Lux, Xerath, Azir, Ahri, Zed.... Almost every mid Champion is going to poke you far more than you could and poke you whenever you try to farm.

So I think this nerf only responds to one thing: you don't want Karthus to be a viable pick because he is not a flashy Champion like Lee Sin. He usually farms and farms early and you don't want that on your LCS. Last time he was picked on LCS he got 400cs. And you don't want that.

Just admit it. Karthus is already a rarely choice and he has a not-too-bad/not-too-good win rate. There is no other possible reason for this nerf.

49 Comments

Dominick Destine9 votes

Karthus is not one of Riot's protected children (The Overpowered Characters) Yasuo Thresh LeeSin Riven

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eN2ia1f2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-11T17:40:01.502+0000)

Karthus is not one of Riot's protected children (The Overpowered Characters) Yasuo Thresh LeeSin Riven

riven is pretty weak tbh unless you can do animation canceling. but I do agree with yasuo and lee sin.

Dominick Destine3 votes

Riven has been overpowered for a very long time. She was a regular pick in Worlds and has a blatantly frontloaded kit.

Señor Karthus4 votes

Thresh has been top support pick since release too and never saw significant nerfs because he provides things they like to see in LCS. Only the arrival of Tahm has offered a nice counter to him (and we know how problematic Tahm has happened to be). Lee is getting BUFFS whenever people don't pick him every game. And the moment Riven was a liiiiittle below her usual performance, she gets a buff too. Riot behavior toward certain Champions is painful when compared to their behavior towards other Champions.

Lord Azır2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eN2ia1f2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-11T17:40:01.502+0000)

Karthus is not one of Riot's protected children (The Overpowered Characters) Yasuo Thresh LeeSin Riven

You forgot Ahri, she's usually allowed to stay in a pretty strong state

Dominick Destine2 votes

Ahri is strong but not overpowered.

The thing about Ahri is; Unlike the other four, she has very exploitable weaknesses, her scaling is not absurd and is gated by issues like mana/range/wave clear/etc.

Lord Azır1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eN2ia1f2,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-11T22:42:34.608+0000)

Ahri is strong but not overpowered.

The thing about Ahri is; Unlike the other four, she has very exploitable weaknesses, her scaling is not absurd and is gated by issues like mana/range/wave clear/etc.

Well I wasn't saying she was OP or anything just like LeeSin isn't OP in my opinion at least. I just meant she doesn't go out of viability and is always aloud to be viable. Most champions remained untouched after DFG got removed and basically removed them from play for awhile Veigar Syndra Fizz Leblanc Nidalee. Ahri actually got a couple buffs and the minor mana nerf to make sure she wasn't too overbearing.

Boulderox2 votes

I think it is because in teamfights a wall of paine can Fuck over an entire teams escape... And rember kids... Your ult is one of the biggest fuck yous in the game. If he becomes super viable, then he will be over played, and you as a dedicated main don't want tour champ uber nerfed. Also karthus is an immobile mage... That likes to die.

Ch0c0lateJesus3 votes

How about Yorick windwall fucking over entire teams?

People have hated that thing since his release and it hasnt been touched. Nobody considered Karth's wall to be a toxic mechanic, but it gets a random nerf for god knows what reason.

Ch0c0lateJesus1 votes

Ahem Yasuo windwall, I dont even know wwho that other champ is.

Melledoneus1 votes

After weeks of searching through ancient libraries, in one of the forbidden files I found out that it's called a Yorick.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

Pretty sure it's Yarick Maria.

Hello I am Bird6 votes

I fucking hate Yorick's windwall.

Fuck that guy.

4NoxiousHours1 votes

{quoted}

I fucking hate Yorick's windwall.

Fuck that guy.

Wat.

Sona Ping1 votes

Don't you know Yorick and his windwall? He's a champion that has so many broken mechanics Riot removed him from the free rotation after breaking a leg with a nerf bat. It's understandable though, you can't let a champion with such low counterplay mechanics that don't allow your opponent to do anything be that playable or common.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

Why is that a thing '-'

Vistha Kai1 votes

Mother of God

Señor Karthus2 votes

Anivia wall?? And? There are several Champions with non ult skills that can cc or bother whole teams's escapes

Nekusen2 votes

{quoted}

I think it is because in teamfights a wall of paine can Fuck over an entire teams escape... And rember kids... Your ult is one of the biggest fuck yous in the game. If he becomes super viable, then he will be over played, and you as a dedicated main don't want tour champ uber nerfed. Also karthus is an immobile mage... That likes to die.

Nami Braum Malphite Yasuo Veigar Anivia Azir Bard Thresh JarvanIV Janna etc. all of them can fuck an entire team's retreat, that's not really an argument there

Boulderox1 votes

Never said he was the only one, but nami and braum I agree, but karthus slow WAS a lasting slow, which would have been worse than a malph ult or j4 ult which is an instantaneous ability. Anivia os along that point with the ult as well as yas

Maximum Morde2 votes

I'm not even going to feel this nerf because I rush Rylais every game with Karthus, and you should too. If you aren't, you are playing him wrong. Nothing like the can't get away from me defile cloud.

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

Karthus Rylais is Love, Rylais is Death.

Señor Karthus1 votes

I build it depending on the situation. Usually (90% of the times) I go for item 3027. It provides me of more rude power through the late game, especially combined with item 3040. My damage turns so strong that Wall + Q Q means usually death of a squishie. I don't even need to slow them forever. But if the enemy team has Champions that I DON'T want close by any means (Darius for example), yeah, Rylai's is life. If you don't adapt to the situation, you are building him wrong ;)

Maximum Morde1 votes

Games end much faster, and with Rylais you will spike sooner, and get fed more reliably. Even before this preseason, Rylais was better because the slow just makes it easy as hell to wreck folks.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

They had to nerf him so champs like Brand who are in a desperate need of a chance can hope to fight the OP nature of Karthus and Swain

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You're Gold 2; you haven't mastered shit. You've barely begun to scratch the surface.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Downvotes for pointing out the patently obvious; typical boards. Any diamond player could play Karhus less than 5 times and already be better at him than you are. Mastered my ass.

Melledoneus4 votes

You must be one of those people that tries to pink ward Kennen's ultimate and flash into global ultimates then claim both abilities are broken.

In short, you are an imbecile.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

That makes so little sense that I'm not even sure how to respond to it. I'm an imbecile for pointing out how stupid of an idea it is to think you've mastered a champion while in gold? You're gonna have to explain to be how that's even remotely true.

Melledoneus3 votes

You don't have to be challenger to master a champion. Additionally, the fact that you said that any Diamond player could play Karthus only 5 times and be better than a guy who mains him is just absurd.

People in Diamond and above aren't gods. You still need to play a champion quite a bit to master them even in Challenger. That's why new champions aren't seen in the LCS often, because they haven't had time to be mastered.

And before you go on a witch hunt checking my elo: I'm Bronze 2 with Gold-Plat MMR. I don't play ranked because I want to play this game to have fun and live past 30. So get your condescending attitude off the boards and go have fun circlejerking with your friends from the dark depths of 4chan or something, because nobody likes an elitist.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

It's not absurd at all. There's an enormous skill difference between gold and diamond. I guarantee that any diamond player could win more of their Karthus games in gold 2, even if they had never played him before. It might take them a few games to get the hang of the champion but after that, their massively higher skill at the game would take over and he would win far, far more games at that elo. That's not being elitist, that's just understanding this game. Anyone who thinks they're reached anything near a champions potential in gold is out of their damn minds.

Melledoneus4 votes

You completely ignored my point that rank is not always representative of skill. I've seen bronze or unranked players completely crush diamonds and plats, myself being one of them. Not everyone who is good at the game feels like grinding ranked to get there, especially since this season's provisionals placed them 4 or more divisions lower than last season.

You also assume that being a lower rank means you can't be good at anything. This guys plays a lot of Karthus, and you instantly assume, since he's Gold, that he's lying about mastering him. You play a champion a lot to learn them, that's basic human limitations. Being a higher rank doesn't boost your human capabilities, so stop acting like it does. For goodness' sake, you haven't even seen him play and you're bashing on his skills. Get off your damn high horse and stop being like those elitist brats that keep trying to convince me to let them elo-boost me.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

It's not a matter of lying. It's a matter of being blatantly wrong. If he were truly a Karthus master, he wouldn't be Gold. He'd be crushing every single game up until Masters. That's what mastering a champion means. If he were truly that good at Karthus, he would be getting insanely fed against gold players and have amazing CS every single game. But he doesn't. He wins 58% of the time. By comparison, I blew through Gold on my smurf winning over 75% of my games on champions I've never played before using them on my smurf. There's a reason I blew through Gold so easily; it's because I was better than everyone else in each game, and by a significant margin. And that's while playing champions I was still learning. Mr. Karthus Master should be having even more success, but he isn't. Newflash for you, Gold players are still really fucking bad and if you can't consistently beat them, it means you're bad too.

Congratulations, you've managed to beat plat and diamond players in normal games while they're learning new champions. Massive kudos to you. That doesn't mean they aren't still way better than you. The quality of a player isn't determined on a game by game basis; it's determined over a very large number of games. A silver player beating a plat player does not mean that the silver player deserves plat and the plat player was boosted, it simply means you managed to outplay a superior opponent in the 1 time you happened to face them. Funny thing about really small sample sizes: they very often point towards very inaccurate conclusions. And there's no sample size smaller than 1.

Melledoneus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eN2ia1f2,comment-id=000200000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T22:12:38.227+0000)

It's not a matter of lying. It's a matter of being blatantly wrong. If he were truly a Karthus master, he wouldn't be Gold. He'd be crushing every single game up until Masters. That's what mastering a champion means. If he were truly that good at Karthus, he would be getting insanely fed against gold players and have amazing CS every single game. But he doesn't. He wins 58% of the time.

Because Solo Queue is all about you winning your lane, and your individual performance, right? It's not like you have to think about teamwork in a 5v5 match. It's not like you can go 20-0 and still lose, or go 0-20 and still win. Your team can be 30 kills ahead of the enemy team but they win because of some broken mechanic like Rageblade Jax or something. There are so many factors that go into a single game you can never truly look at a list of games and know exactly what happened. Seriously, for somebody who talks about generalizing over specific scenarios, you do it a lot.

Congratulations, you've managed to beat plat and diamond players in normal games while they're learning new champions. Massive kudos to you. That doesn't mean they aren't still way better than you. The quality of a player isn't determined on a game by game basis; it's determined over a very large number of games.

I've beaten self-proclaimed Riven mains in plat multiple times with unfavorable matchups. I've beaten those Tier 5 Yasuos who played Yasuo to get to Diamond (Ok, that was one scenario, but you get the point), in general this is not one sample size. I am regularly matched up with and against Plats and Diamonds in Normal games, and in the few ranked games I have played, the same occurs. I'm not sure if it's an unusually high MMR or what, but it happens. While ranking is indicative of some degree of skill, it doesn't mean you're better than every single player in ranks lower than yours. It means you pushed past with the help of your team. Until they make a 1v1 ranked system, you can never truly say you carried yourself to a higher rank. I've gone up against unranked players that destroyed their Platinum lane opponents with stupid things like Nunu mid. Seriously, it's scary what some of these unranked players are capable of.

In general, people in higher elos are on average much more skilled than those in lower ones, but it doesn't mean that every single person in that elo is superior. I have a friend (well, frienemy) who got carried to Diamond and all he knows how to play is Annie. The most simple champion in the game, and he is Diamond without having carried a single one of his games. He goes non-stop boasting that he's superior in skill to everyone, but when we actually play together he ends up feeding easy match-ups like Katarina, making up stupid excuses while I have to do my best as Shen to use my 7 kill lead on the enemy Riven to help our team win. I once had to support a Tier 5 Plat Lucian who ran in like an idiot claiming he could have killed the enemy MF when she was clearly at an advantage, creep-wise and health-wise. After claiming he was going to play a defensive lane, he dashes into the middle of their wave and start auto attacking the MF, who retaliates shortly, and the support ignites him. Instead of flashing toward turret and letting me heal through the last 3 ticks of the DoT, he flashes into the jungle and gives first blood. And apparently it was my fault because I "didn't go in" as Sona at level 2. These are the kinds of players you're praising.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I think you'll find being higher elo does not preclude you from playing terribly at times. Every game in low Diamond still feels like it's decided by which team has the biggest retard on it. And of course you can play badly and still win. I laned against a TF last game. He went 1/12/3 and was down 100 CS. He didn't get a single successful ult gank off. He still won because a combination of my own teams stupidity and his teammates skill completely carried his worthless ass. And yet, the fact that he won that game against me proves absolutely nothing; that kind of performance will lose you 95% of your games; he just got extremely lucky that this one was one of the 5% where he miraculously wins. On the flip side, if you play like I did and end up 6/0 at 15 minutes, you're going to end up winning the vast, vast majority of those games.

That's what I was doing when I was smurfing; I reliably got fed and shut down my lane opponent every single game and managed to win the vast majority of them. The only games I lost were the ones were my team outfed my ability to carry or completely refused to work with me to win the game. I ended up winning around 75-80% of my games in gold and went from Gold 5 0 LP to Plat in just 3 days. That wasn't luck, that was my skill at the game going up against vastly inferior opponents. If I were to do it again, I'd likely do just as well, if not even better. Mister Master Karthus, if he's truly a Karthus master, has no excuse for not winning 70%+ of his games at his current elo, if not more. But he's not. He's winning 58%. 58% is good and deserves to climb but it nowhere near "mastered". There's an element of luck in Solo Q no doubt but it's not that large; pros that smurf consistently win 90%+ of their games until they get to diamond, where they eventually start to level off the closer they get to Challenger. And even most pros haven't "mastered" champions. Very few have done anything close the mastering champions; Froggen's Anivia is an example of saying that he's mastered a champion and not have it be far fetched. So is Faker's Leblanc. Is Mister Gold 2 Karthus Master's level of skill even remotely comparable to those 2 examples? No, of course it isn't. If it were, he'd be Challenger and not Gold 2. This isn't a complicated concept. If he were a Karthus master, he'd be performing way, way, way better than he currently is. Arguing against that distorts the term "master" so much that it's basically meaningless.

Melledoneus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eN2ia1f2,comment-id=00020000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T23:16:25.176+0000)

He's winning 58%. 58% is good and deserves to climb but it nowhere near "mastered". There's an element of luck in Solo Q no doubt but it's not that large; pros that smurf consistently win 90%+ of their games until they get to diamond, where they eventually start to level off the closer they get to Challenger. And even most pros haven't "mastered" champions. Very few have done anything close the mastering champions; Froggen's Anivia is an example of saying that he's mastered a champion and not have it be far fetched. So is Faker's Leblanc. Is Mister Gold 2 Karthus Master's level of skill even remotely comparable to those 2 examples? No, of course it isn't. If it were, he'd be Challenger and not Gold 2.

You seem to forget that you can master a champion that relies too much on their team. Karthus needs to get to late game to become the damage-dealing monster that he is, but against teams that push early leads and can wrap up games quickly, Karthus is a bad pick. Additionally, mobile champions generally screw over Karthus, as landing his skillshots is incredibly difficult when they can simply maneuver around them. Karthus also requires a team to peel for him and help him get to his targets. His W helps, yes, but has an incredibly short range and requires Karthus to be dangerously near their team to pull it off. Mastering Karthus is not the greatest achievement of all time, I admit, as he has a simple kit and doesn't involve flashy, hard to pull off combos. However, he is a very situational pick and a 58% winrate is good considering how many factors need to be in Karthus's favor for him to carry the team.

Froggen's Anivia, on the other hand, is proficient at getting his team picks and using targeted spells to delete squishies later on. Additionally, Anivia can create terrain, and in general bring a lot more utility to team fights than Karthus. Also, this is Challenger and LCS, where teams are coordinated and make the most of every opportunity they can get. And Anivia is very good at creating those opportunities.

Faker's Leblanc is a thing of its own, since Faker is undeniably the best mid laner in the world, not only for his astounding mechanics but the ability to synergize with an already very strong team. Leblanc is an assassin that has little to no counterplay, as if you make one wrong move half your HP is gone, be it the first half or the second half. Also, Leblanc is extremely mobile and is oppressive against immobile mages that lack the tools to stop her. In general, Leblanc is a mobile assassin, which is not comparable to the slow, easily kited Karthus.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You're stretching really, really hard to try and justify him being an amazing master Karthus player while still only winning 58% of the time in Gold 2. Really, really, really stretching.

Melledoneus3 votes

I'm merely trying to show you that rank, champion, and winrate are only three factors of many that go into determining how good somebody is at the game. For goodness' sake, there's a Nocturne mid main in Challenger!

Also, I have a personal disposition towards those who push their ranks onto other people. "I'm Diamond, you're Bronze" has been a mindset that is not only unhealthy to the community, but in general undermining to people personally. Human beings try to find challenges in striving to become better, and being told that you are garbage and will never be good at what you like is one of the biggest blows anybody can have to their psyche. As I mentioned before, I have the unpleasant acquaintance of a group of Diamond players that, without fail, remind me every time they see me play LoL that I'm in a measly Bronze 2. I wouldn't care personally if it weren't for the fact that they do this in real life, which is even more pathetic because, let's be honest here, who the flying frappuccinos gives a crap about what rank I am in a video game? For pete's sake, I'm studying to be a lawyer, not an LCS player!

The point is that judging somebody by simple, raw stats is highly inaccurate and extremely ignorant on the part of anybody who does so. This guy, for all you know, could be potentially one of the best Karthus players in NA. Who knows? Obviously, you don't. Neither do I. And let's be honest, nobody can truly be accurate about how skilled they are by judging themselves, because there is a heavy bias that goes into self-judging. Even if this guy turns out to be terrible at Karthus like you say, it makes my point no different. If someone knows the champion well enough then they are inclined to speak about them. Don't deny somebody the right to speak because you don't see them as worthy of talking about said champion.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

He's allowed to have an opinion on Karthus. He's just not allowed to preface that opinion with "As a Gold 2 Karthus Master..." because that's ridiculous. And then he follows up that introduction with some drivel about how Riot hates any champion who isn't Lee Sin and is only nerfing Karthus because he can't make LC$ big plays. The OP deserves all of the scorn that he receives.

Señor Karthus1 votes

At my rank I am paired with Plats and Diamonds regularly. I have seen good ones and I have won against others. You sound so full of yourself that I don't even know where to start. Diamonds are not gods. I am sorry to bring your ego down, but the more I rank up the less of a difference I see between Platinums and Silvers or Golds and Diamonds. Diamond 1-Master-Challenger I'll accept that. But seeing you sucking your own D like that is pretty funny and pathetic. Diamond 2-5 are good players. You can learn a lot of things from them. But they are far from being godly players. They are closer to Gold than most of them are close to the highest ranks of this game.

Or put it in short: Diamond V? You ain't shit. (or to be more accurate, you are pretty much the same shit as I am)

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You actually think D5 and G2 are basically the same. That's adorable. There's a massive difference between being in the top 16% and being in the top 1%. And I'm the one that's full of myself? I'm not the one claiming to be a Karthus Master in Gold 2. That's all you.

WookieJesuz1 votes

Immobile mage touchup is coming soon, similar to juggernaut and marksman. Expect changes maybe?

Just Blame Jenny1 votes

It seems to me that people are just using different definitions of "mastered".

Let's take Lux for example. What does it mean to "master" her?

Some people would say it simply means landing all of her skillshots reliably.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as the nuances of her kit, and landing her combos reliably.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as CSing perfectly even in tough situations for her, such as under tower.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as possessing in depth knowledge of how to handle every single lane match up, even the "off meta" ones.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as perfect prioritization during team fights.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as perfect objective control.

Some would say it means all of the above, as well as perfect communication with the team.

Now, you may've noticed that a lot of the above are things that come only by practicing the champion herself. Some of the above are things that come only with knowledge that pertains specifically to the champion herself. And some of the above are things that pertain more to an overall understanding of the game than anything specific to Lux.

Someone that can do all of the above, perfectly, is going to be at least diamond level. But I think it's fair to say that someone could, say, be very good with skillshots, understand and reliably land Lux's combos, as well as have decent positioning and prioritization in teamfights, and not be diamond level -- while still possessing a level of skill that one might consider "masterful" in so far as understanding that particular champion's kit (if not win the game itself).

In other words, it's possible to be very good with a champion without being very good at the game. Really, once you hit platinum or so, differences in raw mechanical skill between ranks become pretty minor compared to overall mastery of the game on a tactical level.

SwapShadows1 votes

I feel like these type of threads are just circlejerkers talking about things they don't understand.

Khâmul1 votes

with the new masteries ,you can have your flash once every 255 sec instead of 300 (you gain 45 sec) and you can add the boot enchant, this way you'll be aproximately to 216 sec ( 3min,36 sec). I think it's fair enough for an escape if you ward etc... I played him recently, I didn't really feel the nerf since i take Rylai/lyandris, it doens't change anything, he is still a beast.

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