Does Shyvana need an Update?

Forhonor321··17 votes·2,748 views

As someone who pretty much mains her and has the highest mastery with her over all others champions, I can say that she is by far my favorite champion to play. But with the recent patch it's just hasn't been the same. I mean ok her ult now charges faster at the first 2 ranks now, that's nice, but in the end it's just another band aid fix to her, like Liss and Xin, just to keep her a somewhat decent pick. On top of that I just feel like shes just been nerfed for a while and these small buffs just don't do anything. I mean lets look at her recent patch history for a moment:

  • 6.6 - Twin bite gets nerfed

  • 6.9 - Devourer gets removed (Big ouch)

  • 6.10 - They add a AP ratio to her W

  • This patch - slightly faster ult regen

Basically what I see from this is just heavy nerfs to her and insignificant buffs. Riot didn't really do anything to her Q nerf after devourer got removed and so basically she got Sejuani'd, but far worse since a core item for her got removed. On top of that, they then add the AP ratio to try and make up for the devour effect on item 3124 and convince people to buy it on her, but the item itself is far too expensive for her path and doesn't provide anything but slowly increasing AD and AP damage. And that's just the changes to her. Looking back on what she has it's not much:

Pros

  • Tanky

  • Good damage

  • Fairly decent early dueling, counter jungling potential, and great clear speed

  • Being a dragon (Fuck Yeah)

Cons

  • No CC whatsoever (not even a slow) (correction, no CC pre-6 but even then its not that good)

  • Fairly clunky ult (that is also non-uninterruptible)

  • Extremely weak early ganks

  • Farm heavy and item dependent

When you compare the two, its not hard to understand why most people pick other junglers over her. While she does have good pros, the cons when looked over closely outweigh them. She really doesn't have any CC. I've literally checked every single champion on the wiki and she's the only one that doesn't have any (Another correction, there are other champions that don't have CC like Kat and Yi and she does have CC on her ult, but let's be honest its not that good). And that brings us to the next problems. Her early ganks are so bad without her ult. You basically have to hope that your teammate understands that they have to engage first on the opponent if shes ganking you pre-6. Even with that she doesn't have anything to keep them locked in your gank, except taking summoner 6 or summoner 3 instead of summoner 4 to keep up with them. If not you have to rely on farming for items later on in the gamelike item 3022 item 3153. And the ult.....good god as much as I love this champ I somewhat hate this ability. It can be so easily countered by any sort of CC and the dragging of your enemies doesn't feel like it works half the time, like they go halfway for me (course that might just be me). And don't even get me started on her with Bloodrazor. It just feels like a joke to me. I actually have more comfort taking Cinderhulk over it.

In short, one of my most beloved champs just feels like crap right now. Granted, she still is pretty good but with everything I just pointed out its just got me in a depressing mood. I just feel like there needs to be a rework or something for her soon because it just makes me grit my teeth to see Riot just band aid champions like this, especially to my main. I even remember them taking about having her and Olaf part of some future juggernaut update they may do for them. If they have any intention to do any of this then here's a list of what I feel needs to happen:

  1. Keep burnout and the concept of dragon transformation - The transformation is a no brainer but burnout I feel could be a questionable thing for people but I say keep it. It's a core essential to her kit and identity. ( I would also say keep twin bite, but I have mixed feelings about it at the moment.)

  2. Try adding some new abilities to her - I've never liked her E that much even though it provides % health damage on AA when you land it and the passive is ok but I feel like there could be some better abilities that they can come up with her. Maybe even have her turning into a dragon be a little more exciting then just flying in a straight line.

  3. Give her some CC - This I feel has always been the issue when people play Shyvana. Give her at least some sort of slow. Seriously, why does every other fucking champion have some sort of slow or other CC but she's left in the gutter?

  4. Try allowing her to return to top - As much as I love playing her in the jungle I always wanted to try her in top lane. But with the current state of top laners added along with her right now I just don't ever think its a good idea to do it, even for fun. I've even heard that back in season 3 she was fairly decent so it'd just be nice to see her make a return rather then completely become a jungle only champ.

  5. If her ult remains the same, make it uninterruptible - already discussed it above and this says it all. Next.

  6. ** Model update** - This is more personal preference but most of her current models besides her championship and new super galaxy and possibly ice drake just seem out of date, especially her base skin. It just looks like the old splash art she had before. Just having look a little more like the new art would just be nice. As well as having the other skins have a little touch up. I'd even say maybe update her voice over, either someone new or even the same one, but one thing at a time. (Side note: do you think we could also get some skins that show her original skin? Literally every other skin she has depicts her as a normal human, because fan service, but it'd just be nice to see another skin showing off her original colors besides her base. Again this is just personal preference.)

So what do you guys think? Do you completely agree, disagree, neutral? Give me your thoughts and feedback.

59 Comments

Calabok8 votes

The only thing is adding some lipstick to her lips in dragon form. there we go. done.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Jarvan approves of this.

Votable Jester3 votes

Doesn't her ult knock back enemies she flies through? I'm pretty sure I've seen that combo with Yasuo ult for quick, high-damage tower dives/engages.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-28T05:10:21.154+0000)

Doesn't her ult knock back enemies she flies through? I'm pretty sure I've seen that combo with Yasuo ult

You are remembering wrong.

Shyvana's ultimate does not count for the purposes of Yasuo ult. It's a weird vacuum effect that doesn't count as true displacement (For some reason) similar to Syndra's E on its own.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Syndra's E and Shyvana's ult do actually count as true displacement and knockbacks, but they don't have any duration. Which is what sets them aside from others, as since there's no duration Yasuo can't ult.

Any knockup/knockback which has no duration, has no interaction with Yasuo's ult because he can only ult when they're in the duration of the displacement/knockup.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Syndra's E and Shyvana's ult do actually count as true displacement and knockbacks, but they don't have any duration. Which is what sets them aside from others, as since there's no duration Yasuo can't ult.

Ok then, I stand corrected on that point.

However, my main premise was that Yasuo cannot ult off of Shyvana's descent which still holds true.

Votable Jester1 votes

I'm pretty sure I've seen Yasuo's ult during it. I think it just has to be during the actual leap of Shyvana's ult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGsAAco9nQ

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-28T06:19:56.159+0000)

I'm pretty sure I've seen Yasuo's ult during it. I think it just has to be during the actual leap of Shyvana's ult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGsAAco9nQ

Are you seriously trying to use a 30 month old video to argue modern mechanics?

Mistress Shyvana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-28T06:35:21.380+0000)

Are you seriously trying to use a 30 month old video to argue modern mechanics?

Nah it does count for a knock up. But Votable is correct the Yasuo has to be QUICK N FAST to mash the fck out of R when she hits them. as the knock up is extremely brief.

Source, Shyvana main who Duos quite a bit with their friend who is a Yasuo main. Makes for some funny wombos

Votable Jester1 votes

Yeah I've heard that it's a pretty strong combo. You really do have to be a duo though because the time for Yas to ult is tiny. I'd think it'd be fairly well known though as I think it was used in some pro games a while back.

AninLegions7772 votes

It still works now. Did it yesterday. You have to be crazy fast tho. It's just like Diana's E knockup. Mash your R button when he ganks.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Very well, I was wrong.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-28T05:10:21.154+0000)

Doesn't her ult knock back enemies she flies through? I'm pretty sure I've seen that combo with Yasuo ult for quick, high-damage tower dives/engages.

Her ult is so buggy,on targets where it very clearly hits,nothing happens

Mistress Shyvana3 votes

Also this is a great post, you hit alot of good valid points while still being unbiased. It's late an di have a headache so i dont feel like dropping my two cents but +1

Your post doesnt deserve to be discredited just cause you mentioned being lv7. Thats just arrogance from other people.

ReshiKillim2 votes

Personally, I'd like for her ult to be more like Gnar, Elise, and Nidalee, though shifting more power into her when transformed into a dragon.

One concept I had that I really liked, was being able to press and hold R for a continuous cone of flame breath that consumes fury as the resource. Ending the flame breath would put it on a 3 sec CD, and it could be interrupted.

EG: 100/125/150 base damage (+5% AD and 5% AP scaling) a second, 10 fury cost per second.

Gesterr2 votes

You apparently didn't look very hard in the wiki then to see which champs don't have crowd control, and Shyvana has a knockback on her ult however clunky but is still useful to cancel channel abilities like Fid ult and teleports. Katarina, Master Yi, Lucian, Ezreal, Sivir, Nidalee and Mordekaiser truly have no CC in their kits, and all of them were or still are quite powerful regardless. Two of those even function well as junglers with Nidalee being the most obnoxious, stupid, unfair PoS JUNGLER despite having no way to hold you down but that's for a different thread.

Source: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Crowd_control

I'm not opposed to changes to Shyvana's kit though, she's been in desperate need so something far more than stats for a while, just saying to check your facts carefully next time before presenting them as true.

Forhonor3211 votes

Ok I guess I did miss a few champions that don't have CC (shame on me :P ) and her ult is a form of CC that can be useful for canceling channels but that's pretty much the only CC she has and pre-six she has nothing else. That's one of her biggest problems. She basically has to rely on grinding to six fast enough just to pull off a decent gank. Also Yi and Nidalee I feel don't need any CC. They're both assassin type junglers who just kill you within seconds. There really isn't a need for them to have CC. (Also doesn't Sivir have a shield that blocks an ability?)

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

the whole melee carry class needs an update.

Ralanr2 votes

One thing that confuses me is that she doesn't really feel more durable in her dragon form. Gnars transformation perks make some sense with her.

Forhonor3211 votes

So she gains bonus health when she transforms? Yeah that would be nice on her. But lets face it Riot won't ever touch that idea. I'm pretty sure at this moment they're more focused on band-aiding champions that need it, trying to get their reworks done, and of course bring out new champions like Kled soon. That's all I every feel from them now a days.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

One thing that confuses me is that she doesn't really feel more durable in her dragon form. Gnars transformation perks make some sense with her.

I agree.

Her dragon form is very inferior compared to Gnar's Mega Gnar.

Feed Daddy1 votes

Her W got buffed recently

Forhonor3211 votes

Yes we all know that but that's one of the things I was saying feels like a band aid buff. It was for Guinsoo's so she could still have the phantom hit but in the end its just too expensive most of the time for her to build and doesn't provide anything but slowly increasing damage and AS in combat unlike titanic hydra which provides tankiness and damage at the same time.

hRnrBbWoTr1 votes

I main Shyvana in the jungle with my full attackspeed and 2% crit. Sounds stupid but it wins almost every game because being a tanky shyv you're one of those tanks that was meant to tank. You know, stand there and soak up for your team. Not like shen who autos WAY harder than he should and can catch just about anyone. But all attackspeed get item 1419 item 3087 item 3009 item 3153 item 3078 and eitheritem 3742 oritem 3022 depending if you want to run around between towers or chase down pesky jhins

Forhonor3211 votes

That an interesting build but I have no idea where you got the idea of her just soaking up damage. My build is usually item 1401 item 3078 item 3742 item 3009 item 3083 and then eitheritem 3065 oritem 3091 . It really does do some damage to the enemy team while also making her fairly hard to kill. May try your build sometime though. Looks fun.

hRnrBbWoTr1 votes

The build is designed for waveclear and 1 hit killing carries. But with red smite bork and your E you also mow down tanks.

runedara1 votes

I wish they would change her ult. Feels very weird.

Kenioshi2 sequel1 votes

There are sooooo many champs that need updates(Tryndamere Urgot Yorick Evelynn Akali Aatrox Pantheon ) and Shyvana is not in desperate need she is a bit under powered but we all know the devourer junglers are not in a great place but they will Ryze again.

KoKoboto1 votes

Meh she's fine, other champions need it more.

Lumen Sage1 votes

In general I agree she is not in a great spot right now. Mostly I would love to see her E changed. She is a dragon, yet her breath weapon feels incredibly lacking and while I have little doubt the on hit effect is pretty decent it does not feel good to E someone and watch barely a blip on their health bar.

Other than that I would love to make her feel more powerful in her "dragon" form (I use that term very loosely as no full blooded dragon in the Lol universe even remotely looks like that "dragon" form) and for reasons I just stated I would love to see her dragon form be brought more in line with the actual dragons in the game. Not Aurelion obviously, but she does not even have the same number of limbs as the dragons of the Summoners Rift what with her forelimbs pulling double duty as wings. Her ult says she transforms into a dragon not some damn more dragon than human hybrid.

Personal feeling rant over I feel she shoul feel more powerful in her dragon form, kind of like Nasus and Renekton popping ult makes people back the fuck off unless supremely confident. Shyvana's ult makes her better at dealing AoE damage and that is mostly all.

Gesterr1 votes

Except she literally is a human/dragon hybrid in every way with a human mother and dragon father. Possibly a lore reason as to why her form is a bit unique such as keeping the number of limbs from her human-heritage. A visual update along with changes to her ult to make it more than literally the same spells but AOE. Honestly I'd be fine with her ult giving a chunk of bonus HP like Gnar's passive and the sand brother ults since she would like to build at least one damage item early, maybe two but that leaves her squishy for when she gets into a skirmish or teamfight, it'd allow her to build more like toplane Gnar or Renekton without being gimped for doing so if she doesn't snowball off of her first item purchase.

Lumen Sage1 votes

Dragon's Descent

Active: Shyvana transforms into a dragon and dashes to the target location, Airborne carrying all enemies she runs through towards her destination and dealing them magic damage.

Her ultimate ability states she transforms into a dragon, not half-dragon, not dragon hybrid, dragon. Dragon hybrid is what she is per default. Yet, as I have stated, design-wise her dragon form does not match up to any dragon design in the league.

It is a pet peeve, no doubt about that, but it just bothers me so much since it makes the first dragon champion of the league not even look like a dragon...

Bonus health would to an extend be fine, I would not even mind trading in some AoE power for more tankiness.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

You forgot one that doesn't have any CC- this pretty cat, Nidalee. I'm talking about champs that don't have CC built into their kit. She has none. Besides her and Shyv, these also don't have any:

Ezreal Sivir Lucian

Forhonor3211 votes

Yes I know this now. I overlooked a few champions in my search. Shame on me for missing this. :P

SnugglePuggle941 votes

It's okay. I honestly wonder why they've never given her any CC at all besides the "knock back" on her ult.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Yes I know this now. I overlooked a few champions in my search. Shame on me for missing this. :P

Mordekaiser

Raxistaicho1 votes

Nidalee has better range, burst, and mobility, though.

PapaGreg211 votes

I agree with everything said. I wrote a similar post because of the frustration. My kit rework idea would be to let q apply a slow when used on an enemy marked with flame breath. Her real issues are with the lack of damage and the strange buffs don't address that. Also randuins and botrk are in a weaker spot now so it isn't as easy to get cc from those actives as it used to be

Forhonor3211 votes

Now see a small buff like that would just make her so much better at pre-six ganks. And yeah I kinda remember Botrk and Randuins getting nerfed a while back. Yet another nerf to her. :'(

Keìron1 votes

For sure she will be reworked in the diver update next year. Some rioter said that they will make changes to make her more of a diver.

Raxistaicho1 votes

The pathetic meaningless buffs they're giving her absolutely frustrate me.

LordGeovanni1 votes

technically she has a knock back in the from of her ult

Forhonor3211 votes

{quoted}

technically she has a knock back in the from of her ult

Yeah I kinda know that but really its just so clunky I just don't really include it. And even then its her only CC she has, but its only at lvl ^ and above. Before that she has nothing and that's what makes her so weak compared to other junglers who have way better early ganking potential.

Linna Excel1 votes

I was just looking at her champion.gg page and have a few thoughts.

  1. I think people are building her wrong. IMO TF>hydra on shyvana. I'd consider a hydra item for a 3rd though offensive item.
  2. She seems to do a lot better with AS marks instead of AD.
  3. Recently, scrap computer mentioned that every team needs split push, wave clear, and pick/engage. If you drop flash for TP (theorycrafting here) you'd at least be able to fill 2 checkboxes with shyvana while a tankier build would give your team a weak option for engage.
  4. I don't think she's bad but she seems to have a bit too many counters.
  5. Shyvana has always depended on her teammates for things like CC and not feeding before level 6 and I think she should keep these aspects.
  6. I kind of wish riot didn't nerf her dueling potential to keep her as a speed clearer.
  7. IMO she falls off a bit too much later on.
  8. I wouldn't mind her being able to go top again (maybe even mid)
Forhonor3211 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2016-07-31T04:21:39.571+0000)

I was just looking at her champion.gg page and have a few thoughts.

  1. I think people are building her wrong. IMO TF>hydra on shyvana. I'd consider a hydra item for a 3rd though offensive item.
  2. She seems to do a lot better with AS marks instead of AD.
  3. Recently, scrap computer mentioned that every team needs split push, wave clear, and pick/engage. If you drop flash for TP (theorycrafting here) you'd at least be able to fill 2 checkboxes with shyvana while a tankier build would give your team a weak option for engage.
  4. I don't think she's bad but she seems to have a bit too many counters.
  5. Shyvana has always depended on her teammates for things like CC and not feeding before level 6 and I think she should keep these aspects.
  6. I kind of wish riot didn't nerf her dueling potential to keep her as a speed clearer.
  7. IMO she falls off a bit too much later on.
  8. I wouldn't mind her being able to go top again (maybe even mid)
  1. Yeah I don't understand why people aren't building TF on her first. Its insanely strong on her.
  2. Maybe they figure a little extra damage helps with fighting champions
  3. An interesting choice but I feel like she can just use her W to get to lanes fast already to split push. Not a bad idea though.
  4. Very true. Way too many counters for her at the moment.
  5. Why should she keep not having and CC pre 6? that's what I feel is a problem with her. even at 6 with her ult its so clunky with the knockback. 6. Same
  6. Not sure about that completely. against certain team comps shes fine but in other ones that are very good in teamfights most definitely.
  7. Pretty sure you can go mid with her but good luck going up againt yasuo, fizz, leblanc, or really and other annoying mid laner in existence.
Linna Excel1 votes

I think people are picking up titanic hydra because it gives her damage that scales on HP and it gives her more waveclear.

As for TP, I think it'd help just to join in a teamfight while split pushing.

Forhonor3211 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGljFZ6u,comment-id=001900000000,timestamp=2016-07-31T05:50:51.059+0000)

I think people are picking up titanic hydra because it gives her damage that scales on HP and it gives her more waveclear.

As for TP, I think it'd help just to join in a teamfight while split pushing.

That is a valid point but TF just gives her so much when picked up early. I mean Titanic is still very good for her wave clear, but IMO she has pretty decent waveclear already just with her W and TF can just help her with burst damage more. The TP makes more sense when you put it like that though. I may try it in one of my games sometime.

Ravenhale1 votes

Played 6 games with her yesterday. The only game I won was due to a 4v5 situation and the enemy team surrendered.

Prior to these 6 games, I only had a 40% Win Rate on Shyvana. It was a respectable 50% back in the Devourer days, but I've certainly noticed the decline. There is pretty much no coming back if your team loses the early game in Shyvana's current state. While some might argue that's a risk you take with every farming jungler, Shyvana doesn't really have a purchasable item that makes her relevant or a meaningful level 6 power spike.

I'm at the point where I think I will drop Shyvana once I hit Lvl 5 Mastery (even if I have to lose another ten games to get there). She doesn't have the tools in her kit to be the jungler most teams need. There are better tanks and there are better fighters. With Vi, Poppy, Sejuani and Irelia already at Lvl 5... I can't see myself ever using Shyvana over one of them.

Shyvana is the first jungler that I have considered kicking to top lane. With Bloodrazor feeling worthless on her and poor scalings that don't really encourage Warrior/Runic Echo builds, the reasonable thing to build has been Cinderhulk. This is almost a word for word description of Hecarim (and Irelia if you jungle with her). The last couple games I tried building her identical to Irelia (finish Tri-Force before Cinderhulk), but I didn't see any improvement. I simply cannot gank with this champion. Can't get to my targets and can't stick to them even if I luckily get on them.

Improvement suggestions...

Add a slow to burnout. I don't ever want to buy Frozen Mallet just for a chance to keep up with my opponents. While Cinder/Mallet is a very good combination on any tank jungler, Shyvana has too weak of an early game in terms of ganks that it won't make a difference. If you farm for the combination, your team could very well lose the game by then (or it won't matter since the enemy will be able to stand and fight you anyways). Many of my other junglers (Poppy, Vi) that go this route will have a couple assists to speed up things. Shyvana's complete lack of a gap closer pre6 rarely yield anything but wasted time. I think if burnout had a slow, she might have a slight better chance of getting something out of an overextended lane.

In the meantime, I've been trying out Exhaust instead of Flash. No real improvement, but hasn't been detrimental either.

Lugg1 votes

I agree that she needs something new added to her kit to round her out a bit better. Something like the fire trail she leaves behind stays a bit longer and slows anyone who moves through it. Something along that line would help her out without making her OP.

Schnookiewuggypo1 votes

Shyvana should definitely have some CC SHyvana should definitely get a new passive. common do you guys even know what it does? Shyvana should definitely be able to jump over (lets say caityltn trap) in dragon form, not get stunned where she lands.. SHE FLY ABOVE FOR CHRIST SAKE!

should be more like Gnar, when in Dragon form, give her a CC kit. ITS A DRAGON!

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