Anyone Else Feel Like Class Updates Aren't Very Successful?

Forhonor321··138 votes·6,906 views

Let's look back to what I feel is the beginning of all of this: the juggernaut rework. Out of all of the champs in that, Darius just seems to be the one that was the most successful. The rest just flopped kinda. Garen is still basically a stat stick, Skarner is now clarified as a Vanguard now (have no idea when this happened) and Mordekai- I think we all know by now where Mord is after all this.

Now the Marksman Update: Kog was ok but then nerfed and then reverted, not even back to what his old self was, Cait as of now is kinda dominating especially with her "place traps behind tower so they can't see" bullshit, Graves is a drain tank essentially, and Quinn and Corki... I actually don't see them too often

Then Mages: Malz was fairly OP then nerfed now is support and getting nerf again to almost being unplayable, Vlad was just insanely stupid and is either the OP of the game or left in the gutter, Ziggs can arguably be problematic with his new kit and his rise in bot lane (though to be fair it does make good diversity and is insanely fun) oh, and Syndra was just a pain since she became extremely easy after that (before her recent nerfs).

And of course, the recent assassin update: Rengar is still Rengar except now from what I hear he can build semi tanky thanks to his new passive damage boost, Leblanc continues to delete people and has a ridiculous range on her tether break, Fizz is kinda screwed up thanks to how his ult works now, Kha'Zix is just gross to play against, the list goes on.

Just... who else feels like whenever Riot does a class rework, something, if not the entire rework, is going to get screwed up or in the long run is not going to work as they'd hoped? This is basically the point I've come to expect of any more class reworks Riot plans on, especially with their announcement of the tank rework.

202 Comments

Sahn Uzal52 votes

I'd say they're kinda hit or miss, and Riot should be more revert happy if the rework proves to be a failure.

EmollientNut025 votes

I'd pay real world money to be able to get my old Shen back.

SettDownShutUp3 votes

I remember you... Do you, remember me...? item 3070 Shen item 3070

Melledoneus29 votes

I'd pay real world money to see them fucking talk about Shen. He's ignored when it comes to anything that isn't a nerf, a "whoops we fucked up" half-ass post, or when they clink together their coffee mugs and cackle about how his passive is borderline useless in the jungle and the duration/size of it is mediocre now.

And for freaking fuck's sake can WE GET THAT E HITBOX FIXED?!?

EmollientNut09 votes

His E hitbox is more narrow now than it was before the rework, along with a longer cooldown. There was nothing in the game like his Q healing passive, making him one of the few Sustain hypertanks in the game. And now they have his kit in a state that basically screams "If you're not a pro, don't use him." I'm often outdamaged by tank supports when I play him, and his hypertank identity is completely gone. I hate to say it, but Season 6 killed easily 40% of what I liked about this game. I'm just begging for a turnaround by Riot at this point.

Dabrick014 votes

Shen needed something, and that is undeniable. Compared to his new one though, the old one seems to be liked by more people. I can't really speak from too much experience, but that is the way it seems. Do you mind telling me why?

I like the new Shen and think he is good top lane when I play him. I really wonder what people liked so much about him.

Melledoneus11 votes

Shen felt more smooth before, and Vorpal Blade felt satisfying and rewarding to use.

The new Q is really, really clunky.

Ralanr4 votes

Shen also had one of if not the safest laning phase with his old Q. It allowed him to basically ignore his laner and not really fall behind.

Wasn't very interactive honestly.

3TWarrior4 votes

what's with all this "interactive" nonsense?

shen had to come within melee range to hit with his Q and it was basically flicking a toothpick at the opponent

he was meant to scale into a hypertank and to be able to support allies from anywhere post 6...not this junky clunky nonsense that they made him into

mordekaiser was supposed to be a lane bully. he would shut down any top-laner and stay relevant, but he was never really a threat...then they made him into one-shot or no chance with his damages and shields drastically reduced

I like the dragon idea, but come on...

then there's Cassiopeia ...she was perfectly fine, had some of the lowest damage in the game, many mana issues...but she did her job. She poisoned people, did some initial damage and best of all, any opponents who weren't paying attention would die from her delayed damage...now...she's a break your E key champ...

so many reworks have not gone how the players expected. I like this yorick idea because it gives him a place in the game, but like malzahar, most of his power is in the minions and when they're wiped out in one shot, it's over (though honestly I think people are just playing them the wrong way as either would make an excellent split pusher )

Elikain9 votes

Riot should be more revert happy if the rework proves to be a failure.

#No. Basically, every time there's some balance issues, the community's first though is a rework/revert/update. I don't think you people understand what it means to have a failed update/rework and what it means to bring those champions to a more balance-able state for future buffs/nerfs. The point of Reworks is to bring major kit changes to a champion, revolving around their core identity and improving it while the point of Updates is to fix/address issues their kits had by introducing more balance levers Riot can pull, in order to balance them properly. Being out of balance does not inherently mean Riot failed in executing an update/rework.

LeBlanc and Rengar are assassins. I don't know what you expected from their updates. To not be assassins anymore? Delaying their damage is the only thing you can do because the entire class specializes in killing targets fast (burst damage). And the damage delay can't be so long that you have the time to escape them every time. it needs to be enough so that you can react to them, if you're prepared. If you're not, they should be rewarded with a kill. Rengar and LeBlanc already have a set of nerfs for 7.3 PBE cycle.

NodirjonSattarov7 votes

So they shouldn't have reverted Kog'Maw?

Limrick6 votes

No, they should have made him do 55% effectiveness on-hit with W active. Now he's just generic ADC #4. His rework made him unique and fun, with more effort he could easily have been balanced.

Melledoneus7 votes

I think they need to strengthen his artillery mage approach and make Vayne the attack speed destroyer.

Hell, why does she have so many AD boosts and ratios on abilities if she's supposed to be a tank destroyer?

Limrick9 votes

We already have Varus and Corki for artillery, and Corki is even hybrid too. Vayne can be the tank buster for high resistance tanks, Kog for high HP tanks, like how Brand and Vel are the mage equivalents.

Melledoneus3 votes

I like this idea better. Kudos to you, sir.

TeCoolMage2 votes

His W active would just be a 10% DPS increase + some range then with the exclusion of a bunch of arbitrary and obscure item synergy like Rageblade. Unique mechanics don't create niche or playstyles if they're just fancy words thrown around and random complicated effects. I might as well have made a champion with Elise's stun except it can't reduce a champion's HP to 0, and it does 10% of their max health while healing 10% of their max health instantaneously, unaffected by damage or healing mitigation. In other words, he's going to be generic ADC #4 regardless.

I'd rather he was given something simple that made sense like actually melting people's corpses to eat them or something (even though Cho does something similar, Kog's lore is more fitting. Actually, every single void champ is "DESTROY STUFF FOR YUM YUM"). Or maybe his auto attacks would cause a reverse Lux passive where he can proc it with an ability to reduce their resistances.

ModCaptainMårvelous29 votes

Nope, I think they're successful but not on a "surface" level.

As I often cite, a majority of champions came out in Season 1/2. Champions Riot sold on thematics ("We never had a half dragon! How about a xenomorph?") rather than actual kits. Compare someone like Ivern and Illaoi to a Season 2 release like Varus or Sejuani. The comparison isn't there. S3 onward blow most old champs out of the water in terms of raw design. Argue as much as you want but new releases bring much more to the game in terms of complexity, originality and uniqueness.

Now, Class reworks aren't about "balancing" champs. If you think it is, you're silly. The point of these reworks is to carve more unique niches for these champions out and to focus on what makes them good.

So let's take the marksmen rework because it had the most "incubation" time.

1.) Marksmen find their ways into roles OUTSIDE of bot lane, giving more options and diversity versus "Every marksman is a botlaner". (Graves jungle, Quinn top, corki mid, etc.) Such things should be embraced rather than cited as problematic.

2.) The dominating marksmen, at the present time, are Varus, Ashe and Jhin. Note the comparisons: Long range marksmen with utility. Compare to the old trinity of Corki/Ezreal/Graves. All three....had abilities that dealt a ton of damage. As the meta shifts, it will be LESS about "who is the best marksmen" and more about "Which marksmen fit the meta best"

3.) Marksmen overall have more build paths (or at least they did) and more options, even if not every option is a #1 pick. The zeal items for example have all been picked once or twice. Build paths alter based on purpose (CDR ER vs. IE) and game time (Early game lethality vs. late game crit)

The thing people "don't" get is that these aren't about balancing old champs. This is about carving unique niches for them...and hell, look at the mages. Mid was the most diverse pick at worlds amid a less-than-optimal choice. Zyra/Malz being bot makes other picks work such as MF support. Even with the assassin changes more mid-laners are picked and see play.

In the short term yes, it will suck. In the long term? These class-sized reworks are necessary to keep League alive and to combat the homogeneity that has plagued league for the longest time.

Serika Zero8 votes

adc adc adc adc adc adc adc yet bot lane role is still for them, now they find their ways in other roles as well that sounds broken to me, broken design that carters to only adc players

Onkel Malte8 votes

I agree with 99% of what you say, but Malzahar bot is just a byproduct of a hugely failed "semi-rework"

Papa Andrei20 votes

Well lets look at what good happened. Adc's got more tools to use so it ain't cookie cutter anymore.

Mages.... well... uh... Brand got more damage i guess? They also removed all mana tegen and spellvamp cause why have dps mages.

Assassin... PARKOUR

Ye i see your point

Ralanr16 votes

Cassiopeia main stopped complaining.

Katarina can function without ward hop as well.

SweedishGunner5 votes

Isn't Katarina kinda OP at the moment though?

OneSmoothDude6 votes

The reworks aren't concerned with balance. Never have been. That's what the biweekly balance patches are for.

Instead, they deal more with game health and champion diversity. And I'd say they succeeded with Kat, for sure.

Troll for Trump3 votes

They just turned her into another one of those high skill, high reward champs that are nightmares to balance.

Anonagon19 votes

The class reworks on the whole have been mostly successful, even if individual reworks in them weren't. Riot is also learning important lessons from the class updates that will make future ones better.

Of the four roster updates, the only one that was outright not successful was the juggernauts. From this, Riot learned not to attempt roster-level reworks for champions who need larger scale work, like Morde and Skarner.

The Marksman update was great, aside from Kog. Every one of the major marksman reworks was incredibly successful at achieving the main goal - giving you unique reasons to pick them over other marksmen. So successful, in fact, that four of those reworked marksman are playable in roles that aren't the bot lane ADC role, showing that they do have strong strategic identities that persist outside of their lane.

The Mage update was not as clean as the Marksman update was, for one primary reason - they decided to increase the scope of the smaller scale reworks. This has had lasting repercussions, some positive (Ziggs bot!), some negative (Syndra's skillcap being completely removed!). Sadly, it takes the Assassin update before Riot realizes that the smaller reworks aren't really great ideas, but at least their blog post confirms that they have in fact learned that lesson now. Riot also learned another lesson from the Mage update - fewer big reworks, bigger reworks. A lot of the big mage updates suffered from not enough attention and focus. For the assassin update, Riot would switch from 6 big updates to 4 bigger updates.

The Assassin update has been, in my opinion, a success. All four of the major reworks are great. Yeah, three of them are busted as shit right now, but a champion being too strong or weak is not a reason to declare their rework a failure. The smaller reworks were less successful, but the only ones that are really "bad" are Akali and Fizz. These are the ones that really showed Riot that these smaller scale reworks aren't always a good idea.

Because of the lessons all the previous roster updates provide, all the roster updates in the future will be better. I expect the tank rework to continue to improve on what has come before.

WinTheWarOnPants10 votes

So successful, in fact, that four of those reworked marksman are playable in roles that aren't the bot lane ADC role, showing that they do have strong strategic identities that persist outside of their lane.

sorry but no. try 1. of the six they worked on MissFortune Caitlyn Graves KogMaw Quinn Corki . 3 of them were already played outside adc Corki KogMaw Quinn . Quinn was never played bot lane in the first place and has always been played mostly top, and Graves (the only one that plays outside bot that didn't already) doesn't play adc anymore. so as far as role diversity goes, you have one champ that went from being an adc to a jg and the rest play the same roles they always have.

Anonagon2 votes

I didn't say "four are playable outside bot, 0 were before"

I said "four are playable outside bot". Five if you count Kog, but Kog as a mid laner isn't a "Marksman" so I'm going to exclude him.

Now, two of these champions (MF and Graves) weren't played outside of the bot lane carry role before the Marksman rework. Quinn gained an increased ability to go jungle in addition to top. Only Corki was really unchanged when it came to non-bot viability, but I'd argue that the Package also provided an increase in strategic identity that contributes to him being successful as a midlaner - e.g. it gives him roaming strength as well significant teamfight aoe

TyrekGoldenspear15 votes

That seems awfully cynical, but I can see where you're coming from.

At the same time I'm loving my parkour and shiny new toys as Talon.

zero35611 votes

{quoted}

That seems awfully cynical, but I can see where you're coming from.

At the same time I'm loving my parkour and shiny new toys as Talon.

Agreed, PARKOUR is one of the best things to come out of these updates Please tell me you type PARKOUR in all chat after using to get away

TyrekGoldenspear8 votes

Totally.

I find it kinda funny that despite PARKOUR being one of if not the best mobility spells in the game, whenever QQ about hyper mobile champs is to be had, he's almost never mentioned.

Edit: Yes. I type PARKOUR after a clean assassiation and escape. :D

Shaydrox6 votes

I think it's because the parkour actually feels fair. When he's in the middle of a lane or he used a wall to get to you, he cannot instantly get out. Also the parkour's animation takes long enough for you to see him coming, it's one of the better designed mobility tools imo.

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

Because it's situatonal and has a long cooldown per wall.

Khazix jumps on you, murders you and then hops back over the same wall because reset. Leblanc leaps forward, tags you with spells and then teleports back.

Meanwhile Talon leaps over a wall, blows his full rotation and then has to find a safe exit.

Forhonor3215 votes

The Parkour I can heavily agree upon. IMO Talon was probably the most fun to come out of the Assassin update.

SnugglePuggle9411 votes

You forgot the part where Riot totally botched AP itemization in the marksmen and MYMU update. Can't forget that.

Sraeg20135 votes

We heard you wanted diversity, so we made sure you must purchase Morellonomicon and turned Athene into a trash-tier support item that even supports don't want to look at.

Malicious Metal7 votes

They almost always fall short since most of the Champions deserve/require a full VGU since most of their problems can't be fixed with just one or two new spells.

WinTheWarOnPants4 votes

I think it's not the degree to which they change the champs, but riots mindset for class updates which is "make everyone as different as possible". which leads them to force gimicks on champs. Also items...

Legacy Hydralpha6 votes

Class updates haven't ever been 100% successful, but it does feel like Riot is learning from their mistakes and trying to improve, whether they announce it or not.

Thefrostyviking6 votes

Kog rework was a masive failure tho, he wound up far too OP and he carried most of the games easily with a normal team around him as long as he wasn't shutdown early. And i don't think any of the ADC's issue's got fixed which is why the ADC in 2k17 meme is a thing.

And i loved the assassin rework for kata, talon and Akali seems to have some of her issue's fixed even if her power took a hit. But the koreans are still doing good with her.

As for the mages....it was kinda bound to happen that people would play them as supports if it got gold efficient enough.

Imminent426 votes

I'd say the Garen rework was worse than just meh. I played him a lot before and after the rework and in my humble opinion he was a lot more fun, and had more decision making in his kit before the rework.

Yeah, having the true damage ult is pretty satisfying, and the increased tick rate on the E was a good change as well, but all the new power came at the price of Riot gimping his mobility and the tenacity on his W active.

The Villain mechanic is too non interactive to be fun.

Meanwhile I'm patiently waiting for the day they rework him AGAIN.

Prodlax6 votes

It feels like that class update reworks are mostly failures. It's usually 1-2 successful champion reworks (like Darius and Katarina) and the rest are still as problematic as before.

BluePolarizer5 votes

Corki is now a terrible ADC but top mid lane AP mage NA.

Predictions for Tank rework:

Sion is now AD Karthus, in that he will have much higher damage output after death which encourages him to build some AD. Eventually people figure out the best way to play him is as full AD bot lane with a support so that he can get through lane.Mordekaiser

Forhonor3216 votes

mmmmmm unlikely. Meddler talked about him a bit in terms of the Tank update and all they're really looking into so far is just stat and number tweaks. And even if this was the plan they would go for, they're have to heavily fix or rework Mord before anything since he's still a mess.

Jbels5 votes

{quoted}

Corki is now a terrible ADC but top mid lane AP mage NA.

Predictions for Tank rework:

Sion is now AD Karthus, in that he will have much higher damage output after death which encourages him to build some AD. Eventually people figure out the best way to play him is as full AD bot lane with a support so that he can get through lane.Mordekaiser

As a Sion main, I can tell you right now that if you're playing Sion correctly, you don't even have a passive. A passive that only goes off after dying promotes a very reckless playstyle, and you can see it reflected in most Sion players that don't understand why they lose so many games with him. You are MUCH more valuable alive, applying CC and being a zone threat than you are in passive state, which can never catch anyone that's paying attention/ has mobility.

If Sion is one of the reworks to happen, I will be glad to see his passive go if they decide to change it

Faceroll Tactics2 votes

As a former Sion main, I mostly agree with your statement but his passive is still REALLY GOOD, and makes him even more deadly in enclosed areas like the jungle, his passive is potent enough to outduel most bruisers, creates a huge zone of denial, and so many people just frankly forget sion can resurrect until he in on their face

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=thaHduvN,comment-id=000300010001,timestamp=2017-02-06T00:50:34.747+0000)

As a former Sion main, I mostly agree with your statement but his passive is still REALLY GOOD, and makes him even more deadly in enclosed areas like the jungle, his passive is potent enough to outduel most bruisers, creates a huge zone of denial, and so many people just frankly forget sion can resurrect until he in on their face

Oh yeah, definitely, but it conflicts with his kit tbh. Not to mention, incentives to die are pretty bad on any kit (which is why Sion's kit is the only one that gives some kind of reward for dying)

Glory ln Death4 votes

Thematically, it really works for him, and it really doesn't conflict with his kit. It fits very well with his all-in, plow forward playstyle. It encourages you to fight to your last breath, since it isn't the end if you die. You can be reckless in fights, allowing your team to press on. Where other tanks would have to stop and back off, you can keep going.

Now, you certainly shouldn't always be reckless and rely on your passive, but there are many times where your death means an ace for your team where it would otherwise have been 3 for 2 or something.

Meddler confirmed on one of Ralanr's posts last week that changes to Sion are unlikely, outside of base defensive changes that most champions may be getting. But, honestly, I would be very upset if they removed his passive, since it really cements him thematically.

Removing it would also remove my name's connection to Sion...

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=thaHduvN,comment-id=00030001000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-06T19:00:10.253+0000)

Thematically, it really works for him, and it really doesn't conflict with his kit. It fits very well with his all-in, plow forward playstyle. It encourages you to fight to your last breath, since it isn't the end if you die. You can be reckless in fights, allowing your team to press on. Where other tanks would have to stop and back off, you can keep going.

Now, you certainly shouldn't always be reckless and rely on your passive, but there are many times where your death means an ace for your team where it would otherwise have been 3 for 2 or something.

Meddler confirmed on one of Ralanr's posts last week that changes to Sion are unlikely, outside of base defensive changes that most champions may be getting. But, honestly, I would be very upset if they removed his passive, since it really cements him thematically.

Removing it would also remove my name's connection to Sion...

I don't know, I guess my problem with the passive is how often it fizzles and the enemy team laughs at me as I chase pointlessly after them ,or leave to go punch the wave instead. Those amazing plays where I get a double or triple happen, but out of so many game, I feel like it's only happened for me 15 or 20 times. I love running at people like a crazed maniac and wrecking their shit, but I hate them throwing one CC spell or using practically anything to get out of having to deal with it

Glory ln Death3 votes

If you're with your team, any action the enemy takes in regards to your passive means that you are doing your job with it. Honestly, once you get to mid/late game, your passive doesn't deal much damage unless you build full AD.

In teamfights, your passive is much more effective when it's forcing out the enemy CC or making them scatter to avoid you so they aren't focusing on your team. Your damage is nice, but you aren't there to deal damage.

You can also block skillshots for your team. Dying right before Jhin ults is super fun, since you can just run up to him and smack him in the face while he tries to ult through you - they never know what to do! Half the time, they don't notice until their third shot, and half they'll try to wait out your passive while you lifesteal on them for days. Only a few are smart enough to drop the ult, which is still a win for your team.

More from Gameplay

More by Forhonor321