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Poachers Knife is Too Much Risk vs. Reward

Profirix··24 votes·4,060 views

Hello,

I know how recent patch 4.20 is, but I feel like I should add this to the forums in hope to get some constructive feedback. item 3711 is supposed to be the hallmark of counter jungling the opponent. It offers no advantage over any of the other choices unless your smite steals their jungle camp, and even then, you get +20 gold and a rapidly decaying movement speed buff to escape their jungle. Smite also receives half cooldown reduction.

In theory, this item was supposed to be a high risk high reward item for champions who can clear jungle quickly like Shyvana or Udyr and have ample escape mechanisms to leave if spotted by the enemy team. +20 gold for a successful steal once every 30 seconds sounds nice, but what is the practical use once the enemy team catches on? At lower level play, it may not be much of an issue because coordination between players is relatively low, but how does this item actually compare to item 3713 or item 3715? Why should I risk entering the enemy jungle if I am only going to get +20 gold every 30 seconds? I could just as easily pick up hatchet, stay fully sustained, and run my own jungle with a smite that has a lowered cooldown. Skirmishers Saber similarly provides a huge advantage in duels. Vision on an enemy, reduced damage from them, TRUE damage dealt per hit? 20 gold and a smite cooldown do not make up for the huge risk of entering the enemy jungle usually alone to take their camps.

Suggestions:

  1. Give me a reason to enter the enemy jungle: a. increased smite damage vs. enemy jungle monsters (does not apply to dragon or baron) or b. increase the gold bonus from smite clearing an enemy monster significantly or c. you could even decrease the smite cooldown on a successful steal of large monsters to mere seconds (lets face it, if you are risking your life in the enemy jungle, you want to get in and get out. This way if you successfully steal and live, you don't have any downtime between smite cooldown and can proceed to your own jungle before the enemy can steal your camps.

Just a thought.

Edit: After doing some more research and play testing, item 3715 and item 3713 are by far the best choices for jungle depending on play style. One gives you a huge advantage against potential invasion as well as increased gank damage. You trade CC by not taking item 3706 however the 2 second slow is easily mitigated by a flash and thus you should go ahead and use any cc effects you or the laning partner has to ensure that the enemy sticks around.

It was brought up that item 3711 is not just about rewarding the invader for stealing monsters, but denying the invadee the gold and experience. In theory this is true, however all it takes to stop this is a ward at the jungle entrances every 3 minutes. Support should have bottom covered, mid can take care of chicken entrance with a pink, jungle can take care of blue bush and top can kill two birds with one stone by warding further down the river. Early to mid game, when this item is supposed to be the most effective, the jungle chunks far too much health from most champions now. To be caught in the enemy jungle after fighting the monsters for any longer than a couple seconds (which is all the time now that they are so much stronger) is almost a guaranteed death. But for what? +20 gold, a movement speed bonus, and a potential deny on farm? You died. They made up for all of that. Denial of farm in the jungle is not enough to risk feeding kills to the enemy jungle or assist xp to the enemy lanes.

27 Comments

Siachi8 votes

I'd argue that you shouldn't just think about what YOU get out of it, but also consider what you are also DENYING the enemy jungler. Gold, exp, and potentially taking an important buff of the enemy team, and the speed boost also makes you harder to catch while counterjungling. Take enough farm from the jungler, and depending on the champ, late game they're useless (ESPECIALLY if it's a carry jungler that uses whatever-the-name-of-the-Feral-Flare-enhancement-is)

Does this make it a better item when you consider it's purpose is more to DENY the enemy jungle's farm, while giving you a little bit of something extra as a bonus? Beats me, I don't jungle, and when I do I'm terrible at it, and somehow even WORSE at counterjungling if I'm not already ahead. But I still think it's something that should be considered. Especially if you do come across that carry jungler that, if you don't shut them down, will become a very real problem for your team later in the game.

EDIT: I initially worded that first line in a VERY wrong manner and wanted to clean it up.

Profirix7 votes

That is a very good point, however I think you underestimate the risk of entering the enemy jungle in the first place, especially with how easy vision control is now when you are aware of someone counter-jungling.

Rebonack6 votes

Honestly I think the two offensive Smites should half Smite cooldown if you get a kill/assist after blasting someone with it. Every time you Smite a champion that means you're giving up a jungle buff. And that's a pretty big deal.

Poacher's Knife is just a giant neon 'ward your jungle, kay?' sign the moment it gets spotted. A thirty second cooldown is nice and all, buuuut I still think I would rather just have AoE blasty power and a lower cooldown when nuking dragon, baron, crabs, my own jungle camps, and minion waves. I'm honestly not sure what you could do with the Knife to make it more attractive and less of a trap option.

chumbler4 votes

You actually thought Riot is capable of having more than one way to play their game?

Junkο1 votes

Actually they made it so now sieging is a really good strategy now compared to poke, splitpushing etc... . . .

And by that i mean the only viable strategy thanks to the Baron and Dragon buffs and new turrets

Abominate2 votes

TBH Poachers is trash item 3713 is also pretty lackluster compared to the other items as well

The ones that give in- combat stats are the only ones that will really help you throughout the game

Rebonack13 votes

TBH Poachers is trash item 3713 is also pretty lackluster compared to the other items as well

The ones that give in- combat stats are the only ones that will really help you throughout the game

Ummm...

Ranger's is arguably the safest upgrade. It improves sustain, clear time, buff control, and is even nice for flattening minion waves. Blue and Red smite have a lot more risk because if you smite a champion and fail to secure the skill you just put yourself one buff down.

C9 Scott Free 1 votes

Exactly used my smite on an enemy champion and my TF got the kill. Makes it entirely not worth it for you right there.

249892_DEL2 votes

The problem I see with poachers knife is that it seems counter intuitive to who you think should use it. Personally I see shaco or eve using poachers but it actually isnt that great on them imo. Poachers seems meant for a bully jungler who can kill a jungle camp with little or no risk. Those champs that basically dont take much damage from the jungle camp in order to mitigate risk. Coming close to death trying to take an enemy camp with possible wards being near seeing a huge risk for most junglers. I would rather clear my jungle faster in most instances.

Eve seems like she would atleast be able to stealth close and ward, then use poachers for a steal but thats super risky since you might smite at the wrong time basically wasting its cooldown and gaining nothing in return. In an instance like this I would rather poachers smite deal more damage to the enemy jungle mobs in order for you to possibly land it earlier but this creates its own problems...

Tis a nice day2 votes

Poacher's knife is a great item in theory, but its biggest issue is that it sits on a razor fine edge between being overpowered (uncatchable Udyr constantly counter-jungling), and utterly useless (enemy map control makes counterjungling suicide).

rinsujo2 votes

(uncatchable Udyr constantly counter-jungling)

Ah! Awesome Alliteration.

Moonshade2 votes

They could add a mechanic to poachers similar to that of Targons, where if the monster is say under 1/2 health it executes them in the enemy jungle (dragon & baron exempt) and gives you a longer (4 seconds?) move speed buff to book it out of their jungle? That or just make it so the smited monster is worth 1.5X the gold and call it a day

Rebonack1 votes

They could add a mechanic to poachers similar to that of Targons, where if the monster is say under 1/2 health it executes them in the enemy jungle (dragon & baron exempt) and gives you a longer (4 seconds?) move speed buff to book it out of their jungle? That or just make it so the smited monster is worth 1.5X the gold and call it a day

Instead of doing an execute just make the Smite damage higher than the other Smite items. That would make it better for Baron/Dragon steals as well.

Redsmite = I wanna kill the other jungler. Greysmite = I wanna steal monster kills. Bluesmite = I wanna gank folks. Purplesmite = I wanna have faster, more consistent clears.

Beardyface861 votes

I agree, I believe troll smite is not at all a rewarding purchase. once you have the item and are seen, the gig is up they're gonna be more defensive of buffs. You don't get the option of the fast camp clear that Blasting Smite gives nor do you get the functional ganking utility of the more offensive smites. Keep in mind, the other smites are still usable to steal camps too. I do think there needs to be some trade off. Higher damage on enemy buff monsters would be nice. Something to make it worth it.

The Whamboozler1 votes

Yeah, it's easily the worst one. The gold payout isn't worth the risk IMO. What's more good teams will get far more defensive the first time someone tabs and sees that you have it. Give the item a much, MUCH higher reward for counter-jungling and maybe it'll be worth it. Right now, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Halodjin Tyr1 votes

Hello,

I know how recent patch 4.20 is, but I feel like I should add this to the forums in hope to get some constructive feedback. item 3711 is supposed to be the hallmark of counter jungling the opponent. It offers no advantage over any of the other choices unless your smite steals their jungle camp, and even then, you get +20 gold and a rapidly decaying movement speed buff to escape their jungle. Smite also receives half cooldown reduction.

In theory, this item was supposed to be a high risk high reward item for champions who can clear jungle quickly like Shyvana or Udyr and have ample escape mechanisms to leave if spotted by the enemy team. +20 gold for a successful steal once every 30 seconds sounds nice, but what is the practical use once the enemy team catches on? At lower level play, it may not be much of an issue because coordination between players is relatively low, but how does this item actually compare to item 3713 or item 3715? Why should I risk entering the enemy jungle if I am only going to get +20 gold every 30 seconds? I could just as easily pick up hatchet, stay fully sustained, and run my own jungle with a smite that has a lowered cooldown. Skirmishers Saber similarly provides a huge advantage in duels. Vision on an enemy, reduced damage from them, TRUE damage dealt per hit? 20 gold and a smite cooldown do not make up for the huge risk of entering the enemy jungle usually alone to take their camps.

Suggestions:

  1. Give me a reason to enter the enemy jungle: a. increased smite damage vs. enemy jungle monsters (does not apply to dragon or baron) or b. increase the gold bonus from smite clearing an enemy monster significantly or c. you could even decrease the smite cooldown on a successful steal of large monsters to mere seconds (lets face it, if you are risking your life in the enemy jungle, you want to get in and get out. This way if you successfully steal and live, you don't have any downtime between smite cooldown and can proceed to your own jungle before the enemy can steal your camps.

Just a thought.

Your reason is Evilynn, you see a Evilynn or a squishy Jungle without sustain you buy that, They have to back so many god damn times and float at 10%hp in there own jungle for so long it's a free kill/Enemy invade every time no contest.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

I've been doing jungle for a long time season 4 and I kinda support the idea it should be more of a reward.

Profirix1 votes

Bump since changes were made.

Rebonack1 votes

After thinking about this for a bit, I think the best option would be to make Poacher's Knife deal, say, fifty percent more damage than the other Smites. This would cement its role as the 'ima stealin' yer buffs' item. Dragon steals, Baron steals, Buff steals, this would be the item for the job since you would be able to smite much earlier than your foe and steal whatever they're trying to secure.

Maybe 50% bonus damage would be too much. I've got no idea, I'm not on the balance team. But bonus damage would probably be the surest way to better define Poacher's functionality.

UPfreely1 votes

I would like a full smite reset for stealing the enemy jungle camps, ty.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Poacher's isn't trash. Being able to smite Krugs and Raptors is really nice.

The problem is that Skirmisher's is just amazing. It does everything. It keeps you safe in your own jungle. It threatens them in their jungle, It's good for ganking. It makes you a splitpusher almost by default. It even reveals Shaco.

DadimPregnant1 votes

LOLOL @ anyone who thought counterjungling would be worth with everything on a 100 second timer. counter-kill-the-jungle with a much better smite effect item. not hard. only thing reasonably viable. and much more fun.

MrHaveANiceDay1 votes

I think there are a few approaches here.

Yes, you'll get more stability and farm if you just use a item 3713 , but that's not the point. The point is less about your personal farm/reward and more about constantly denying enemy gold/exp.

item 3711 should enable more confidence while counterjungling. To that end, I think small tweaks to item stats/usability in the enemy jungle would help solidify the usefulness of its niche:

  • The machete passive damage increases when fighting enemy jungle camps.
  • The passive regen is 150% of normal values when fighting enemy camps.
  • The speed boost decays over 2.5 seconds instead of 2.
Jungle Lux God1 votes

Poacher's Knife is good only because of how much counterjungling can ruin the opposing jungler's farm, but even then Poacher's Knife is the worst upgrade to pick. If you want to do any sort of farming in the jungle you are better off getting the Ranger's Trailblazer and counterjungle the enemy jungler when they reveal themselves on other points on the map or taking Skirmisher's Sabre or Stalker's Blade, and both kill them and kill their jungle.

Profirix1 votes

Poacher's Knife is good only because of how much counterjungling can ruin the opposing jungler's farm, but even then Poacher's Knife is the worst upgrade to pick. If you want to do any sort of farming in the jungle you are better off getting the Ranger's Trailblazer and counterjungle the enemy jungler when they reveal themselves on other points on the map or taking Skirmisher's Sabre or Stalker's Blade, and both kill them and kill their jungle.

This is one of the points I am trying to make: there is no reason to pick item 3711 over item 3713 because the only real benefit it offers to improve your chances of counter jungling is the very short-lived movement speed buff upon stealing the enemy camp. I feel like this item was created as a smite steal rather than a jungle clear item. It just takes too dang long to clear enemy jungle camps early game. This item needs some work to really give it a special niche. If the enemy sees that you have purchased poacher's knife, kiss your chances of counter-jungling goodbye.

One theoretical change to make it safer would be to not allow the enemy to see what type of jungle item you have purchased.

StuffedTurkey0071 votes

True, you could make it a mastery, and then they wouldn't know until they explicitly see you do it.

pE4CbxDPQO1 votes

You can go ahead and keep thinking that. Me and Nunu love it.

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