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Loving new mana items?

ModKnightsKemplar··50 votes·3,485 views

I know there are a lot of complaints about the new items, and in some cases, those complaints make a lot of sense.

But can we talk about the elegant solution to the item 3165 problem for a sec? This item is basically the only option for most mage mids to rush right now, and the reason is incredibly simple; it gives them everything. Mana, mana regen, damage, and CDR. It's over half of the offensive stats that mages want.

So Riot, being pretty smart with design, goes "you know what? That actually doesn't break the game too badly, so we're just gonna make a bunch of items with Damage, CDR, and Mana and see what happens. You can't have your mana regen anymore, that's nuts, but we'll just give you insanely large mana pools to compensate you for that, no worries."

That's really nice. I'm not sure why mage mains aren't rejoicing and openly weeping on the Boards now; we're finally seeing some parity in offensive items between Mages and ADCS. Not complete parity, and I'm okay with that, but at least some decent options for CDR and mana, and a bunch of pretty cool situational items.

Am I the only one that thinks that is the right direction to go? This is an awesome solution to a pervasive problem.

142 Comments

xelaker28 votes

obviously the new ap items should have been 200 ap, 600 health, 400 mana 50 armor, 50 magic resist, 25% movespeed, 45% max health burn over 2 seconds, and a passive that heals you for 250% of your ap if you fall below 30% health for 2800 gold. And even then it's still not as good as the adc god tier items, so better buff mages as well

ModKnightsKemplar18 votes

That item doesn't even have Grievous Wounds. Morello's had it, so if the new item doesn't have it, it's garbage.

It's like you don't even play mages, you have literally no idea what you're talking about. How are they supposed to deal with Mundo if they don't have Grievous Wounds? You're probably Meddler in disguise, trying to peddle your terrible balance ideas to the plebs who don't know any better.

:^)

Sonasaurous10 votes

I like the direction Riot is going with the changes, I'm just a little put off by how much CDR has been added, in addition to all the CDR that already exists in the game (and will still be there after these changes go through).

Like, as an AP enchanter support, my usual build includes item 3098 item 3504 item 3107, which is already 30% CDR, and then I'd be inclined to buy Twin Shadows (+10% more CDR?), and then either item 3285 or item 3003 would give another 10% CDR plus a bonus 10% CDR on top of that? I mean, I guess I could go item 3089 instead, but the extra mana on item 3003 or item 3285 is highly appealing, especially if I'm gonna have all this extra CDR to permaspam my spells.

But still. I feel like all this CDR will just make people rage at the "broken" enchanter supports even more (Sona Soraka Janna ) when they inevitably build these items and can spam their heals and shields. And I'd really rather not have my supports nerfed to the ground AGAIN because itemization is the problem.

ModKnightsKemplar10 votes

The CDR cap is a useful tool to prevent overstacking of some mechanics, though.

If you're going item 3098 , item 3504 , item 3107 , it might legit be OP for you to stack a lot of mana (and those passives) on top of that. I dunno.

But yeah, if you want AP, you can go Rabadon's, and if you really want to stack mage items, you can forgo ardent and redemption. Or, you can take transcendence and still stack CDR and get both.

That's the point, though. You have options with all of those; the one you want might not be optimal, but it might end up fitting your playstyle and being plenty strong. In an ideal world, that's how that should work, right? So they're taking steps in that direction, and I love that.

Good analysis though. I will worry with you a bit about enchanter supports. I think it'll be mitigated by the wider availability of GW for two of those, but Janna is one to keep an eye on. I honestly think she's enough of a balance nightmare to warrant a gameplay update, even without these changes. But I doubt many people share that opinion.

WiegrafOfValor8 votes

You mean, it was, before they made a rune that not only give you 10% CDR but also give you free AP when you get more CDR than the cap.

MysticDreams129 votes

I don't. They nerfed the AP out again, added mana and even more CDR on the CDR overload that we already have, and didn't even give us any good defensive options either, besides health. No armor or MR.

This is another weak attempt at trying to fix AP, and really makes me think they don't know what the hell they are doing.

ModKnightsKemplar10 votes

Why do mages need to be tanky? They already have Hourglass and Veil if they want resists; I'm unclear on why they need more than that.

MysticDreams126 votes

Not tanky, just let them be able to survive without being deleted after you press Zhonya's. Hourglass has already been nerfed to crap, Veil is situational and not that good of a buy. Those are only two options for AP while AD has

item 3156 item 3139 item 3026 and if you consider these defensive- item 3071 item 3025 item 3748

ModKnightsKemplar8 votes

I don't feel like those examples translate all that well, though.

Hydra, Iceborn, BC, and Maw aren't actually good for anyone but Juggernauts and tanks, and GA is really only good on ADCs and Assassins...

When you look at the class breakdown, I don't think it's uneven at all. There are a few exceptions, of course, just like there are for mages; vlad can build a lot of the tankier items that don't work for most mages, for instance. Breaking the entire game down to just AP and AD doesn't make any sense to me. One of the items you mentioned doesn't even have AD on it.

MysticDreams124 votes

The first three are on a whole other level compared to the crappy hourglass and veil.

Like I said, "if you consider these," they still give health and armor but are for the more tanky champs.

AD side is vastly superior to AP. And I confused the iceborn with the mallet, my bad.

ModKnightsKemplar7 votes

You're still dodging the question that I originally asked; why do mages need to be tanky? Their win rates are fine right now. Most people are still going to ignore more resist items on mages even if they did exist.

You can compare to AD items all day long, but you're not making a logical connection about why mages need access to similar powers. Do you think every item should have adaptive damage? What's your end goal here, and why do want that?

MysticDreams124 votes

I didn't say that they need to be tanky, just given more survival options.

Win rates don't matter here. Did you see what we lost in the preseason? All the defensive runes and masteries. With that gone, damage went way up and surviving is even harder now. Mages don't have escapes, they don't have mobility. Yes they have CC but are also gated by cooldowns and mana. They need more options to survive and the ones we have don't cut it with all the damage across the board right now.

I want a better armor/AP item, and another unique MR item as well that mages have the options to choose from instead of just the one hourglass or veil.

Selegun6 votes

So without armor, mr or HP how then would you increase survivability?

MysticDreams122 votes

Those are the main defensive options there. Without, then you have to rely on heals and shields, playing safe and using CC.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

They don't need more survival options, though... They would have to give up so much damage for that that it wouldn't be worth it.

If Riot gave more armor and MR items, they would just be a trap. Just like BC, Maw, etc. are for ADCs. I'm not seeing a universe in which that's a good idea.

Win rates do matter. Everyone lost a lot in preseason, and everyone gained a lot. Including mages.

Jmman5 votes

and what options do AD give up for survival.... answer that and we can't really start talking. Because they get the added damage on AA too. Then scaling with crit. But one spell vamp item for mages is op.....

Nothing new with this. Just really looking forward to the damage when items are equal and you build for how you want to play instead of building for what you have been assisted.

you need to say which mages don't need more survival because putting them all in one bucket it's smart.

Moonfall Saber4 votes

even item 3078 has health....item 3170 is what we want

Tenth Leper1 votes

{quoted}

Why do mages need to be tanky? They already have Hourglass and Veil if they want resists; I'm unclear on why they need more than that.

And roa and mask add some beef too. Mask is actually one of my favorite items

NineTailedMystic2 votes

lol mask on a non-tank

RocketRelm7 votes

The more I think about these changes, the more I feel like they're going to be a disaster that will take months to patch into place. Sure, there's many good things I see coming, and I like that, but dangers also loom on the horizon. Liandries is a meme that will be easily fixed√, what I'm concerned about is Seraphs.

Seraphs is the new Morellos, and replaces it as the "cookie cutter first item". Offers 89√ AP + 20% CDR on buy, and trades the grievous passive for the ability to immensely scale later on (+50~ AP and a shield), as well as significantly higher mana pools. Basically trades 18 AP + 100 gp for 400 Mana + 20% CDR, which is a significant buff over it's current iteration, ignoring the better buildpath.

Now, this is a problem because we have an entire class of champions (Mana Guzzlers), who are balanced around Seraphs being incredibly hard to get rolling. It's a direct buff to the champions that build it currently (Cassopeia, Ryze), as well as those who really really want it, but couldn't afford the early game power hit (Hi, Kassadin√√).

Also, it kind of invalidates Ludens as the "Poke Mana Item", it scales fast enough that the window where Ludens is better is incredibly short√√√, and generally poke champions want "assloads of mana" way more than "a dinky on-hit proc" (25% mana refunds alone is huge).

Overall, I feel like Riot's got a big beast to wrangle in terms of making Seraphs not have a hardcore power dip in the early game, but also not suffocate out the other options. I trust them to eventually get this right, but I do expect some turbulence.

√Already addressed on PBE, apparently. √√89 AP based on 650 Mana from item, 650 Mana from champ, = 1300, which is 39 AP from the passive. √√√Though the PBE buff to Ludens helps to alleviate this, it doesn't solve the root issue that seraphs is a better poke item.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I think you bring up a good point with seraph's, but it will still take time to amp up. The luden's proc is probably worth the 9 AP, and they actually raised it to 90AP today.

Nonetheless, I think this is the best critique of the items that I've read. You're right that the balancing act between Luden's and Seraphs may prove to be difficult, and that'll be something to watch.

Personally, I don't think the intended use of Luden's is to be a poke item, though it has certainly ended up that way. If this pushes it to a more burst-oriented role, then that's maybe a good thing?

RocketRelm3 votes

Thanks. I like the changes they're making on the PBE so far, and can't find anything to disagree with.

My primary issue is that Seraphs starts out on par with the other items at 0 stacks. Slightly weaker, but has lots more mana. The issue is that it then scales super hard and gets a defensive shield. Said scaling might need to get ramped back, maybe something like lower the AP gained from Mana from 3% to 2.5%?

Ludens, at least it's previous iterations, was intended to be an item for poke mages. Also, the AP Itemization post directly references Ludens as the poke choice. Whatever else, the intended use is as a poke item.

Lost Chapter upgrades into three 20% CDR, Mana, AP items; Hextech GLP (catch), Ludens (poke) and Archangel's Staff (scaling).

Shifting Ludens to a burst role might be a good thing, but when I think "AP item that offers CDR, Mana, and up-front burst damage", the words on my tongue are "Lich Bane". These two items, while having their minor differences, will step on each others toes a lot.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Yeah, you're selling me on that, I think. I like the scaling on it in theory; if it playtests that Luden's just has a lot more poke damage and still adequate mana, it might be a good enough separation, but I think it's a good cause for concern. That's what I'll be watching going forward.

As for the AP items that haven't been touched here, it does say a lot about how they view the class. I would have loved an update to RoA; if Archangels is supposed to be the scaling item, where does that leave RoA? The other scaling item? I dunno, I would have liked to see more things touched outside of just these items.

MohawkBird4 votes

[deleted]

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

What's wrong with reducing the AP a little? I don't see any obvious problems with that. Morellonomicon had 100AP and everyone was fine with it as a rush item.

Edit: jk, they did reduce it 20, I see what you mean. I think rabadon's will be more necessary now if you want a high AP build. But that does reduce some of the burst in the game that people are complaining about, does it not?

LightIsMyPath11 votes

Except the most complained about burst is a shiv crit from the ADC, too much of it on tanks, duskblade's.. And Zoe. But Zoe will burst anyway even with 20 less AP on her first item. They are removing burst from one of the only 2 classes intended to have it.

GodlyBane4 votes

u arent the only one thinking this is the right way to go my friend!

JarodDempsey4 votes

Is op joking? I thought he was at first but then read the comments and some people agree and now i think he's serious. New morellos is just old liandrys +perma grevious wounds. Mages lose all mana sustain as well as some health in favor for flat mana which few mages need (any that need large manapools simply buy archangels). Flat ap saw nerfs on most common items and buffs on less common items and ofc liandrys which used to be useful for all mages is now going to be marginally useful on most mages while being a must have on dot/sustained damage mages.

This at best will be a minor inconvenience to most while making a few champs like brand and cass and morde and sej and amumu do really op damage while also nerfing healers and doing nothing to resolve the major issue of physical damage creep. Fighters are currently verging on assasin level damage and the only reason assasins arent melting everyone is because adc's are now assasins with ranged attacks who melt the assasins before they get in range. Idk why riot messes with ap items when ad items are so fucked.

FilDaFunk4 votes

But AP is getting reduced.

Jmman3 votes

Here is my biggest beef.

We are having to use some of the power of items for mana. We need mana to pay for damage. This is coming out of the power budget. Then when you look at AD items. This is no "budgeted" for AA or non mana users spells.

Now take champs like fiddle. This don't really address or help him. Sure the new item 3151 will be nice. but he needs hp and mana because he has to get close. If you go hp you will miss your power spike because you don't have the AP. If you go AP the all you can do is throw crows and how they do more than 150 damage.

The items aren't bad themselves. But where the Pen or something =ish to item 3071

What they did was make the AP items like the jungle items. Pick one of the generic 3 options that fits poke/burst/mana mages... They didn't change item 3102 to a clickly. My problem is every mage is have to be glass cannon to be good now. And mobility mages are going to be ALOT WORST will all the movement speed. Burst mage or go home now. This is all that will happen from this. 5 or 6 mages will be op and the rest trash.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

We are having to use some of the power of items for mana. We need mana to pay for damage. This is coming out of the power budget. Then when you look at AD items. This is no "budgeted" for AA or non mana users spells.

Do you have math justification for this?

What is the value of mana? What should it be? What stats would you use to know if mages and adcs were balanced against each other?

Fiddles is in a weird spot, but there's also a new jungle item coming in the same patch; I would hold judgement on him, in particular, until we see where all the changes land. You might have to hit 3 items before you have everything that you want in your build; so do adcs.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

You might have to hit 3 items before you have everything that you want in your build; so do adcs.

Mages should be "online" earlier than ADCs.

Malicious Metal2 votes

But instead of making mages be "online" earlier, maybe ADC's powerspikes should come later, no?

HaIlMonitor3 votes

The one thing I don't get is why didn't they basically remove Liandras and Morellos and make them into the upgrades for void-staff (make them more like the AD versions)

Who is Taliyah3 votes

I'm a bit disappointed that AP on almost every item gets lowered again. The 5% bonus AP on rabadon doesn't compentsate for all the -ap on existing items. Whilst I didn't do the math, I am pretty sure that the only way to get really high AP now is to basically go full mana build with rabadon and tear. Which shifts mages into lategame powerhouses but make them pretty vulnerable in early game.

Of course this is just speculations and I really hope I am wrong. Only time will tell.

Ahristocats2 votes

i stopped playing Morde because of the lack of movement speed+ap items unlike zeal items for adcs

but now they're here, i'm going to get back to challenger once new patch will be out and morello gives hp now

i don't really care about mana items, but i will be eternally thanksful to riot just for making the life of manaless ap bruisers easier with those changes (morde rumble vlad ect...)

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Yeah, maybe a better title for the thread would have invited discussion on all of it.

But I really appreciate the effort to rational item design for AP. A lot of people are acting like Riot is just doing things randomly, but they aren't. These are carefully thought out changes. I'm sure there will be bumps in the road, but it's a good direction.

Ahristocats5 votes

a lot of people complain for nothing

it's just sad, they complain about riot not buffing the defense of mages when rylai got buffed morello+rylai+liandry will give 900 hp+300 ap, do you think adcs can itemize like that?

throw protobelt in it and you get 360 ap 1200 hp

and you don't lack of damage because now liandry is %max hp damage

LightIsMyPath2 votes

I love the concept behind the first item changes as we finally have a choice on our first buy. However I hate the removal of AP from the game once again. Having cdr options is surely nice but all I wanted was another 100 AP item instead there's one less then before. Also finally they split liandry from flat pen.. But I don't get why do I have to pay for hp to get flat pen, and why gw is on the same item. I want damage not hp!! Rilay is now one of the highest AP item in the game (ok only by 5 but still) which I find absurd. Only way to keep up with AP is running trascendence and overcapping cdr on purpose. I hope they change their mind and give more access to rabadon via better build path. I just want to burst again not get less punished for missing my spell at the cost of lower burst.

Anyway I 'd say the concept track is the right one *though they left out tanky mages who buy roa but don't want tear). And can't wait to try the new item with stacks

Disulfiram2 votes

{quoted}

That's really nice. I'm not sure why mage mains aren't rejoicing and openly weeping on the Boards now

We do, it's just that we're getting overwhelmed by the circlejerk downvotefest. :(

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dBvaKubE-i-honestly-like-the-pbe-item-changes?comment=00000000

Handy Sandy 2 votes

I think it's the right decision, but why's there 500 mana on one item when you can have like 250 or 300 on multiple items that would be in core builds.

Daunt2 votes

Resourceless AP users also need items, you know. If every item had mana in it, they'd have to balance the item around that stat. Also, the 500 mana really helps mages contest with ADCs since they will always be gated by mana while ADCs aren't really limited by anything.

ThePikol2 votes

If only they would rework other class items too, making item 3147 anditem 3031 not mandatory

Divewing2 votes

I think it's because for so long there has been really only 1 metric for measuring how much damage an AP champion can deal: "does my Ability power = lots?".

These items sacrifice some of that AP for unique effects, something that AP champions aren't really used to, especially after DFG removal.

I do have some concern over the AP numbers though, in that it may increase reliance on DCap, which even with the +5% buff, still sucks to build (i.e the actual building part), but even then, Meddler said it's something they may change if they deem it necessary.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

There's some of that sense I've been looking for!

I also think that mage players forget that CDR = damage. More spells = more damage, so several of these items have significant buffs just because of that. I mean, I think the GLP and Archangels look much better now, but we'll see how it is in practice, I guess.

DCap is the biggest concern. I really do hope they look at the build path for it, because that could be a great help in late game builds.

Purejoyce2 votes

Problem? What problem? And because there was no "problem", this is by no means a "solution", but ok.

I also fail to see what's so "smart"or "elegant" about throwing almost all (yup, "almost all", NOT "half") offensive stats in one item that you praise so highly? Seriously, no offence, but wtf is this thread... :D

Kurjao2 votes

I was low-key hoping for new build paths for seeker's item 3191

Blåbæret2 votes

AP changes are a net nerf. You'll be backing constantly due to no mana. Entire change list seems rushed. GG.

I nid a leesch2 votes

I feel like zhonya's is the only armor item you can buy as a mid laner even when something less sufficient would be enough. Graves jungle does quite some dmg but not enough to kill you nor burst you so why would zhonya? Because its literally the only ap/armor item we have. qss - maw one for burst other for cc. And this is without considering the fact that ad casters get a shitton of lifesteal. I wish there was an ad shield type of item. I'm against a kha zix I buy shield, im against rengar I buy zhonya's. I like how they made more starting items but that doesnt solve the problem we have of defensive items not being here right now. I wish 3 defensive items wouldve been made and call it a day. Also WTH is up with talisman wasnt it supposed to be more attractive to champions its supposed to be good on?? It seems like a huge nerfs.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

I think it's a really great idea to solve morllo, but the other changes they are making bother me. I don't like the new Liandry's, and I'm pretty sure we're losing out on AP across the board.

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