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Let's Talk: "I'm high tier and best assassin for 10+ patches in both low and high elo" Aka Shaco

IP Masquerena··18 votes·8,279 views

Here's some winrates in Diamond, random orders:

  • Zed: 49.5% wr, 12.1% pr, 26.4% br - avg kda: 8.4/6.3/5.3 - 2.17 - 13.7 KP
  • Fizz: 50.6% wr, 4.2% pr, 3.8% br - avg kda: 8/5.8/5.4 - 2.31 - 13.3 KP
  • Talon: 52.7% wr, 5.5% pr, 4.6% br - avg kda: 8.7/6.3/5.5 - 2.25 - 14.2 KP
  • Katarina: 50.1% wr, 5% pr, 2.8% br - avg kda: 9.2/6.6/5.5 - 2.22 - 14.7 KP
  • LeBlanc: 49.5% wr, 9% pr, 24.8% br - avg kda: 7.3/5.1/6.3 - 2.66 - 13.6 KP
  • Akali: 46.5% wr, 9.2% pr, 59% br - avg kda: 7/5.8/4.7 - 2.01 - 11.7 KP
  • Pyke: 49.5% wr, 17.2% pr, 32.8% br - avg kda: 6.6/6.1/8.6 - 2.49 - 15.2 KP
  • Kayn: 49.7% wr, 9% pr, 5.8% br - avg kda: 7.3/6.2/6.9 - 2.29 - 14.2 KP
  • Rengar: 50.8% wr, 7.7% pr, 5.6% br - avg kda: 8/6.2/5.7 - 2.20 - 13.7 KP
  • Bug: 52% wr, 16.6% pr, 13.1% br - avg kda: 8.4/5.6/5.9 - 2.55 - 14.3 KP
  • Evelynn: 51.6% wr, 5.2% pr, 14.4% br - avg kda: 8.4/5.5/7.0 - 2.8 - 15.4 KP
  • Get nerfed already aka Shaco: 53.7% wr, 5.2% pr, 7.1% br - avg kda: 7.8/5.1/6.7 - 2.84 - 14.5 KP
  • Nidalee: 50.9% wr, 8.7% pr, 5.1% br - avg kda: 7.2/5.5/7.4 - 2.65 - 14.6 KP

(the stats are from 2 days ago)

So far, Shaco is proving himself as the best Assassin (if I did miss one, let me know, but I doubt anyone will get as close as Shaco)

We see all these cries on how "Akali is invis and you can't see her, make pinks/oracle reveal her and target her", but we have an even more abusive clown here. Pinks don't reveal him, and couple the fact that all Shaco builds I've looked around have Shaco put 3 points into his Q, making him invis for 3 seconds, max 4.5s, with a dash on top of it, is not revealed by pinks and Oracle doesn't let you target him either.

I know you'll cry "that he can be hit while under tower, but Akali can't", but then again, I know where Akali is when she's invis, worst case, I know the general area, but for Shaco? Well, if you ain't seeing him on the map then good luck fi....an ally has been slain...oh, there he is.

Shaco has been S tier for the last 6 patches in a row in both high elo and low elo, while the lowest he's been ranked in the last 10+ patches is A tier for 3 patches, then back at S tier.

So I am wondering, is there a special agreement between Riot and Shaco mains stating something like "make sure he doesn't become mainstream and you can have your free stomper" or something? Because any time there's a thread asking for Shaco nerfs, it gets downvoted and people keep saying how "Shaco's fine" or "Shaco isn't even good right now", but....stats say the exact opposite, best winrate in class, best kda, among the best KP, with Nid and Pyke having it a bit better.

Should Shaco see nerfs? I sure think he does, but I want to hear your opinions on the matter.

60 Comments

Death by Glamour17 votes

Arguably your stats show kha is better

Sure he has 52%wr but his play rate...

IP Masquerena2 votes

It's not just about getting kills, which Kha does get, but it's also making those kills into wins.

Shaco wins more, dies less and has a higher KP, granted, it's by a 0.2, but the massive 0.3 KDA difference is something.

Also, as Dusk said, Shaco is so much more reliable than Kha'Zix and style points don't win games.

Saevum2 votes

Pyke is not far from him either.

D357R0Y3R9 votes

?

Shaco was always played by mains I don't see anything surprising if his win rate is high

IP Masquerena4 votes

Then there are quite a lot of mains at 5% play rate, meanwhile stuff like A-Sol has a play rate of 0.7% at 52.5% wr, Donger sits at 2.9% and 52.8% wr, Corki at 1.1% with 50.7% wr and those are champs who are played only be mains, still have a lot less play rate than him and lower winrates.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

{quoted}

Then there are quite a lot of mains at 5% play rate

there are a lot of shaco mains period it wouldn't be 5% but a large majority of them are mains

, meanwhile stuff like A-Sol has a play rate of 0.7% at 52.5% wr, Donger sits at 2.9% and 52.8% wr, Corki at 1.1% with 50.7% wr and those are champs who are played only be mains, still have a lot less play rate than him and lower winrates.

all those champions are garbage and buffs are planned for them, donger used to have 54% win rate until Riot screwed with his coding and are trying to fix him

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

?

Shaco was always played by mains I don't see anything surprising if his win rate is high

5% play rate is a bit more than mains and one tricks playing him.

Prime example of a champ played by one tricks is Aurelion Sol.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

Alright I repeat once again

5% pick rate doesn't mean anything there is a large amount of those 5% that are mains

Aurelion Sol isn't played rn even by his mains because he's shit when he's good he has 2-3% pick rate and 54% win rate

OP listed that there are champions played by mains like heimer/sol/corki who have 52% win rate and less pick rate than shaco NEW FLASH those champions are getting buffed

Malza9 votes

Shaco is garbage, stop looking at winrates in a vacuum.

IP Masquerena3 votes

Shaco main discovered.

I did state all the stats, not just winrates. He has the best winrate, best KDA, 3rd highest KP and has been S tier or A+ for who knows how long.

That's not "you're looking at winrates in a vacuum"

Also, a garbage "champ" shouldn't have the highest stats in class in Diamond.

D357R0Y3R6 votes

{quoted}

Shaco main discovered.

malza being a shaco main LOL

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

u're like 1 click away from figuring out he's a singed onetrick.

IP Masquerena1 votes

That was mostly a joke since in Shaco threads all Shaco mains claim he's bad while stats show otherwise.

Dr Dog3 votes

thats because shaco himself is bad, very bad infact his strength is all item abuse

Malza9 votes

{quoted}

Shaco main discovered.

I did state all the stats, not just winrates. He has the best winrate, best KDA, 3rd highest KP and has been S tier or A+ for who knows how long.

That's not "you're looking at winrates in a vacuum"

Also, a garbage "champ" shouldn't have the highest stats in class in Diamond.

The "Best assassin for 10+ patches" wouldn't have only a couple of people in high elo who play him. There is one challenger shaco player in NA, two low masters (near 0 LP) shaco players in EUW, and one low masters (near 0 LP) shaco player in Korea.

That's four notable high elo shaco mains across three regions in total out of the 2,500+ players in masters+ for the regions. That's extremely far from "S tier in high elo".

ttv Pennywise8 votes

S tier with the lowest playrate of the top 25 jglers, 3% playrate and 33% of those playing the champion are one tricks like me, if you think hes so good why dont you try climbing with him and see how good he really is to someone who hasnt put a million mastery points into the champion.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Why don't you go tell that to all the people making tier lists, Shaco's been at the top for a hella long time.

https://mobalytics.gg/blog/category/tier-list/

There's one of those, you can check the patches yourself. For 1 patch he's A tier in low elo S in high, for 3 he's A in both and everywhere else he's S tier.

I don't deny your knowledge as a Shaco main, but something a off here. Be it his items or him directly, you can see in the OP that he has the best stats of all assassins, and iirc, 5% pr is considered very healthy by the boards.

Malza1 votes

{quoted}

Why don't you go tell that to all the people making tier lists, Shaco's been at the top for a hella long time.

https://mobalytics.gg/blog/category/tier-list/

The people making tier lists besides LS don’t know anything and are mainly hardstuck plat / low diamond players.

Most tier lists are extremely low effort for clicks and basically do what you’re doing (aggregating data).

IP Masquerena1 votes

Meanwhile, Moriarty, the guy making the lists for Mobalytics is a Challenger coach that almost went pro but couldn't due to some irl stuff, hence why his lists have some weight on them compared to stuff like random YouTube lists.

Darkomantis2 votes

I hate when people want nerfs to Shaco when they have no clue what it's like climbing with him. You are constantly trying to outsmart the enemy team, you are called shit by your own team & at times refuse to work with you, and you're pressured to perform like Heath Ledger's joker.

They hate Shaco because the OTPs actually make him good!

SKHynix7 votes

Wtf u nerf from shaco? His base dmg is a fucking joke. Try play shaco without duskblade. Duskblade+trinity combo make him broken. Just remove fucking duskblade from this game.

Moons of Jupiter3 votes

{quoted}

Wtf u nerf from shaco? His base dmg is a fucking joke. Try play shaco without duskblade. Duskblade+trinity combo make him broken. Just remove fucking duskblade from this game.

IVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR AGES.

ITS. FUCKING. DUSKBLADE.

So many champions have become terribly oppressive, broken, balance nightmares since its introduction with ONE THING in common-- synergy with duskblade.

Shablagoo1 votes

Yet he counter jungles like a beast, has insane mobility even without flash, and because of that mobility he can take ignite which makes his counter jungle even better. I dont believe this item impact that you attribute this too, because a lot of assassins us db and are not at his level of success. If Duskblade was so strong every champion who uses would be at shaco's level yet still wins.

MasterDClone1 votes

shaco can proc it with both him and his clone at the same time then q's to proc it a third time, very few champs can do that

Moody P5 votes

Shaco sucks

Dr Dog4 votes

ya shaco needs nerfs, its not like his numbers are ass rn, real talk shaco is only as good as his items, dusk and trinity are great rn so that puts shaco in a good spot, we need item nerfs not shaco nerfs because lets be real, theres barely anything on shaco TO nerf because of how gutted his numbers are and how much of his actual kit he needs to even be decent

IP Masquerena1 votes

I don't play Shaco, always hates him, hence why I didn't suggest any nerf ideas. Also, I'm always hoping for indirect nerfs then wait to see the result before doing direct nerfs. The only direct nerf I want to see is Zed's passive not applying on creeps.

Nerfing his items then see how it fares can be a good idea, if then needed, he can get a direct buff, but as I stands now, he's too good.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Only problem is that "his" items are several other champions' items too, and not even all their users are Assassins either.

I'm sure they'd rather nerf 1 champion than nerf items and have to re-balance multiple champions based on that nerf.

Duskblade is already as nerfed as possible and Trinity is too core on too many bruisers and any changes would cause big shifts in top lane.

Tiamat nerf is coming soon though and that's definitely a core item on him. So I'd say hold complaints til then.

IP Masquerena1 votes

I got no idea why my comment above got downvotes, oh well, I know why this one will.

Here's an idea, why not invert his ratios? All AP becomes AD and all AD AP.

That way he loses access to all the abusive items and if his kit is indeed as bad as everyone makes it be, he can be buffed accordingly, since right now he can't due to how stupidly strong AD items are.

MasterDClone2 votes

I don't think you understand the problem with shaco's interactions with items. All this would do is further fuck the ap shaco community who are having a tough enough time as it is. An ad shaco doesn't rely on the ad on any of his spells. Shaco's scalings are dogshit. What makes him strong is that he abuses the passives to these items, like duskblade proc, tiamat proc, sheen proc, his clone can abuse guinsoos, his backstab makes ie really strong especially that his clone can use it too. The inverted ratios will actually buff shaco a great deal because his clone and boxes would do stupid damage and his e would still do decent damage as the scaling on it is already so garbage most players wont notice the difference. We don't build items for the stats but for the abilities they give us

IP Masquerena2 votes

I can understand.

I did say that I don't play him, so it's true that I don't know how his kit benefits perfectly from his items, I only know him from the perspective of playing against him, so seeing him have such winrate, stats and a decent playrate with the fact that when I do see him because I didn't ban him he is just completely toxic to deal with because people just die without a chance to fight back is the reason why I said he needs a nerf, what kind of nerf, I don't know, that's why I didn't make any suggestions.

Frosted Tips3 votes

Shaco needs a real rework. He is abysmally clunky to play and honestly I don't understand how people main him. He just feels terrible.

MasterDClone1 votes

i disagree that he feels clunky, when u master the clone he is so much fun to play what is annoying is the dependance on certain items to do anything in the game making your build path very linear.

Metallikaiser3 votes

I don't really think he is a problem, his winrate will get inflated by how devoted his players are and him being hard to play. That said, you are already getting a nerf to him anyways with the tiamat price increase, so I don't see the point in complaining.

Fire Blaustoise2 votes

Should Shaco see nerfs? I sure think he does, but I want to hear your opinions on the matter.

He need a rework if anything. Tiamat nerf will be enough IMO (Shaco is legit a walking runes/items). Shaco will always be an nightmare in solo Q cause players dont respect junglers, dont even ward enough...

I only hope for a Leblanc (yeah its unrelated).

Woodakoodashooda2 votes

I don't think Shaco's the problem in all honesty.

Ever since Riot introduced Lethality and then shoved Lethality items down our throats, balance has been thrown completely out of whack.

The problem lies with Duskblade and is the absolute bane when it comes to balance decisions regarding AD champions, especially those who invest into it because without it they are either useless to their teams or close to it.

Duskblade itself needs to be nerfed or removed completely so that chanmpions themselves can be correctly balanced.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

yeah maybe he has the highest winrate but he has nowhere near the playrate of champions like kha, pyke, zed, lb, etc.

IP Masquerena1 votes

It's not only about winrate and pickrate. Sona is considered an S tier support yet she's far from being as popular as Leo, Thresh and co.

WarHero542 votes

{quoted}

It's not only about winrate and pickrate. Sona is considered an S tier support yet she's far from being as popular as Leo, Thresh and co.

That's Pretty Hypocritical coming from your op you put all the winrate/pickrate stats.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

just what i was about to say lol

IP Masquerena1 votes

It ment that pick rate isn't the only thing dictating stuff.

As I said, look on pretty much any tier list and the jester is somewhere at the top, yet his pick rate isn't that huge.

Same goes for Sona currently, she's strong but not the most favourite pick of many, she's not flashy.

Also I said it's not only about winrate and pickrate, not that they don't matter, I did post all the stats, and he has the best KDA and the 3rd best KP along the best winrate. If it was just the winrate I wouldn't had made the thread.

Handy Sandy 2 votes

but I want to hear your opinions on the matter.

Shaco does not feel oppressive to play against. Overall he's squishy and his burst speed is pretty low compared to other assassins. Later in the game when people start grouping he seems useless outside of his ult. When I play against him, it's like "I'm not going to bother you, and if you're bothering me I'm going to Zhonya and/or face you so you don't get your crit off." Past level 10 the only thing threatening you is his boxes.

I really don't see why his winrate is so high, but if the statistics really say he's busted then he should get nerfs. It's only 5% playrate though, I would leave him alone for now.

His banrate is 0.70% as well, showing nobody else has much of an issue with him.

MasterDClone1 votes

shaco's winrate is high because all of the best items in the game currently shaco abuses without a problem

ZephyrDrake2 votes

This is why winrates are useless when talking about balance. Unless it's something obscene like 57+% or sub 45-46% winrate then winrate doesn't really tell you anything useful. Shaco isn't weak but he also is far from being the best.

Talk no Jutsu991 votes

shacos are only good if they have a skin

Tundra Hunter1 votes

Shaco needs a rework, his kit is %%%%%%ed. You say it's OP, which might be true looking at high WR in all elo, but he is especially frustrating to play against.

MasterDClone1 votes

the problem with nerfing shaco is that you have to nerf the items he uses which nerfs other unintended champion, his strength comes mostly from him abusing items, and even when they do nerf those items his winrate only goes up because his pickrate goes down. Also if you look at the banrate you can see that people aren't having that big of an issue with him. Now if we look at akali the reason she is annoying is that she has so many dashes and can't get hit by turret, while shaco has 1 blink, and towerdiving isn't that effective. Akali can sit under your turret hitting you without taking damage for like 6 seconds. Even if you know where akali is killing her is ridiculous she moves halway across the map in combat at incredible speeds.

I doubt there is such an agreement because almost every shaco main, myself included hate what riot has done to the champion and want a revert or something to make him more skill expressive rather than item reliant. While riot hates shaco's kit but can't think of a healthy way to rework him which is why he has been an s tier level rework for a couple years and the mini rework was only to "balance" him when they did the invis rework

Vekkna1 votes

Do all of the Shaco mains who defend his WR based on PR understand that you are indirectly arguing for Katarina and Fizz buffs to the tune of +3% WR?

Hammermancer1 votes

Garen is the best assassin

Fite me

koshkyra1 votes

So I am wondering, is there a special agreement between Riot and Shaco mains stating something like "make sure he doesn't become mainstream and you can have your free stomper" or something?

Probably tbh not gonna lie

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