@Meddler - About some of the things you said 2 months ago.

Canastus·Jan 10, 2016·31 votes·3,185 views

First of all, I'm merely asking for a reply from Meddler, this thread isn't meant to be another huge discussion about Cassio's future - we already had our fair share of those this week. I'm just looking for a confirmation on something, here's what I'm talking about:

http://imgur.com/EimMvp3

Back in october you mentioned the possibility to do some work on Cassiopeia, primarily on the level of balance. Yes, I realize that the mage-update is going to happen in probably 5-6 months but it's important to keep Cass somewhat playable until that moment has come. It's been over half a year already since you touched her, and those changes were strictly nerfs.

You surely have come to the same conclusion that she's in a bad spot within a meta that heavily favors snowballing and shorter games, and even then her lategame remains subpar. I'm wondering if you have any balance-changes planned for her now that season 6 is about to start. I already tried talking to your collegue RiotRepertoir about it but he couldn't give any answers since he's not on the Balancing team.

53 Comments

CatloafJan 10, 20166 votes

if you wanna buff Cass then this autotarget 0 mana cost 0 cd toxic spell must be reworked, also Gragas needs buffs desperately. item 3070 Gragas

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

if you wanna buff Cass then this autotarget 0 mana cost 0 cd toxic spell must be reworked, also Gragas needs buffs desperately.

Yes Gragas too.This meta is so strange.

morris1Jan 10, 20164 votes

{quoted}

toxic spell

This isn't the memes thread but I couldn't hold from pointing this joke out.

Count ZubatJan 10, 20166 votes

I'd say we will have to wait for immobile mages rework. Maybe then, we will see some changes to Cassiopeia.

CanastusJan 10, 20169 votes

Do you really think it'd be a good idea to let her rot for 6 more months until finally something happens? The least they could do is to make the current Cass work until she finally receives the desired rework. To simply forget about her is like condemning her to share an apartment with Yorick. She already suffered through six months of nothing, do you want to make an entire year out of it?

Count ZubatJan 10, 20167 votes

I know it's already a long time of her being in laughable state, but if Riot already scheduled an "immobile mages" update, and I think Cassio can be easily classified as one, they'll probably not gonna make one exception for Cassio and change her earlier. She is in need of changes, but if they already ignored her for 6 months, I don't think they're gonna care about that. They'll just throw out changes to her with all other changes to immobile mages. Just saying: don't expect anything until then. Sorry to say that, man.

BlitzedlegendJan 10, 201612 votes

There is Yorick he has been rotting for 4 years

Remlap1223Jan 10, 20166 votes

I'm perfectly fine with that. Yorick is where the term lane cancer comes from. Until he's reworked, I'll be more than happy to never see him again. Which has been the case, I've yet to see him played in months.

BlitzedlegendJan 10, 20163 votes

I play Yorick if I am on tilt because stomping top lane always gets me off tilt ALWAYS and I am allowed more mistakes, one last thing, build zzrot portal on him, and split push all game, I was recently in a game agenst a hec and a MF I got my janna and noc to build the portal and we just out rotated the enemy team.

Edit: here it is http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2062819233/213503587?tab=overview

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7yzgea0,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-10T16:09:25.549+0000)

I'd say we will have to wait for immobile mages rework. Maybe then, we will see some changes to Cassiopeia.

5 months.Very long time mate.

SeekêrJan 10, 20164 votes

Literally 10 days into the year bro...

K54Jan 10, 20161 votes

I was just about to say the same thing lmao Early year is at least the 1st quarter if not the 1st third.

Have to give them until April before you can call shenanigans.

Leu07Jan 10, 20163 votes

Yeah, but they have already made balance changes this month, like for example the MF "E" Nerf. They have been recently discussing about the next balance changes/projects and they did not mention much about cass, nothing about the "early year buff" they mentioned, it's been a lot of negligence and Cass really needs help.

xJLx MCHammerJan 10, 20164 votes

He said "COULD". You could win 1.3 billion on the powerball but the odds are 1 in 280 million

CanastusJan 10, 20163 votes

What's so wrong to ask him about it then? I just want a plain simple answer.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20163 votes

Nerf over nerf,nerf over nerf.Result:Such.

NagmaJan 10, 20163 votes

Never felt so bad to play cassiopeia , she realy need some serious damages buff

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

I agree.Also Azir too.I forgot.I add.Syndra,Nunu,Twitch.

CanastusJan 10, 20166 votes

I just see no point in playing a champion with a powercurve set between a 39% and 50% winrate from early to late if you can play other champions like Zyra, Brand or Rengar who have insanely strong early games (58% winrate) that don't ever fall below a 50% winrate at late.

The powercurve is literally on its head for someone like Cass while she doesn't even get any rewards for making it into late whereas those other champions remain strong throughout the game and also far more reliable in case a game ends a lot sooner.

If you want hypercarries to be viable, they need a 55% winrate at least during lategame, otherwise they remain vastly inferior compared to everyone else. Cassiopeia is simply too weak, mostly due to the handicaps she's stuck with which are her low range, lack of mobility, inherent squishyness and strict focus on single-target-damage along with insane manacosts. Azir is far better than her in that regard.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I just see no point in playing a champion with a powercurve set between a 39% and 50% winrate from early to late if you can play other champions like Zyra, Brand or Rengar who have insanely strong early games (58% winrate) that don't ever fall below a 50% winrate at late.

The powercurve is literally on its head for someone like Cass while she doesn't even get any rewards for making it into late whereas those other champions remain strong throughout the game and also far more reliable in case a game ends a lot sooner.

If you want hypercarries to be viable, they need a 55% winrate at least during lategame, otherwise they remain vastly inferior compared to everyone else. Cassiopeia is simply too weak, mostly due to the handicaps she's stuck with which are her low range, lack of mobility, inherent squishyness and strict focus on single-target-damage along with insane manacosts. Azir is far better than her in that regard.

I don't agree.Cass is have more good late game than Azir.Azir isn't hypercarry but Cass is hypercarry.But you're right that point.Cass needs buff,rework or another thing.

CanastusJan 10, 20167 votes

Azir is far safer pick due to his superior range, his gapcloser ability and the far more reliable utility his ultimate comes with. Let's also not forget his aoe-damage whereas Cass is strictly limited to short range single-target-damage. Trying to hit your equally short-ranged and delayed ultimate as Cass is extremely hard to do due to how random the success-rate of her stun is and how little good it does against opponents who are already sitting on top of you.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Azir is far safer pick due to his superior range, his gapcloser ability and the far more reliable utility his ultimate comes with. Let's also not forget his aoe-damage whereas Cass is strictly limited to short range single-target-damage. Trying to hit your equally short-ranged and delayed ultimate as Cass is extremely hard to do due to how random the success-rate of her stun is and how little good it does against opponents who are already sitting on top of you.

Cass has more damage than Azir level 2 and post level 6.Yes Azir is more safe but also Azir is have a lot weakness.0 kill pressure,very few damage(dps),not hypercarry,risky soldier control.Even Easyhoon isn't playing with Azir now.

CanastusJan 10, 20166 votes

Cassiopeia doesn't get the opportunity to get close to Azir if he's any decent, he'll simply poke her to hell until the lanephase is over. The only thing she can hope for in that kind of matchup is some help from the jungler, but that's basically it. Also Azir can zone far better with his soldiers whereas Cassiopeia's miasma is downright pathetic in terms of damage output, he's simply better at punishing people for grouping up while keeping a safe distance. That alone makes him a far better teamfighter than she could hope to be.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeia doesn't get the opportunity to get close to Azir if he's any decent, he'll simply poke her to hell until the lanephase is over. The only thing she can hope for in that kind of matchup is some help from the jungler, but that's basically it. Also Azir can zone far better with his soldiers whereas Cassiopeia's miasma is downright pathetic in terms of damage output, he's simply better at punishing people for grouping up while keeping a safe distance.

But Cass is better teamfighter than Azir.Maybe Azir is the worst champion in game.I played as Azir last day and I didn't kill 4 tank champions in twenty seconds.He is haven't damage.While you also attack with Azir you are always in danger

CanastusJan 10, 20166 votes

Cass can't even kill a single tank without either running oom or being cc'd, MR-itemization is simply nuts after the last itemchanges. A single defense-item already gives them 70 MR, now add some inherent MR scaling and some MR runes to the mix and you have a target in front of you that will punish you the moment you get into range for your Twin Fangs.

It's very unrealistic for Cassiopeia to take down an opponent undisturbed since it requires her to stand still to cast the ability whereas they remain on the move, kiting is even harder if you're up against several targets who have superior range and mobility to you. You're always the first one to die in that kind of situation.

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Cass can't even kill a single tank without either running oom or being cc'd, MR-itemization is simply nuts after the last itemchanges. A single defense-item already gives them 70 MR, now add some inherent MR scaling and some MR runes to the mix and you have a target in front of you that will punish you the moment you get into range for your Twin Fangs.

It's very unrealistic for Cassiopeia to take down an opponent undisturbed since it requires her to stand still to cast the ability whereas they remain on the move, kiting is even harder if you're up against several targets who have superior range and mobility to you. You're always the first one to die in that kind of situation.

I didn't protest already.I agree but Azir too.As a result both have various weakness and need buffs,reworks or revert nerfs.

The Yetii RiderJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I just see no point in playing a champion with a powercurve set between a 39% and 50% winrate from early to late if you can play other champions like Zyra, Brand or Rengar who have insanely strong early games (58% winrate) that don't ever fall below a 50% winrate at late.

The powercurve is literally on its head for someone like Cass while she doesn't even get any rewards for making it into late whereas those other champions remain strong throughout the game and also far more reliable in case a game ends a lot sooner.

If you want hypercarries to be viable, they need a 55% winrate at least during lategame, otherwise they remain vastly inferior compared to everyone else. Cassiopeia is simply too weak, mostly due to the handicaps she's stuck with which are her low range, lack of mobility, inherent squishyness and strict focus on single-target-damage along with insane manacosts. Azir is far better than her in that regard.

And how exactly do you plan to fix that? We already have a late game AOE Mage, that's Karthus.

The problem with late game ability marksmen is that their individual abilities cap as early as level 9. You have to give them some kind of power curve or multiplicative scaling outside of the ability system, which Riot did with her passive. But no one likes that. So improving it has little satisfaction to Cass players while potential devastating frustration to her opponents.

You guys want another rework. They may be planning on that when they get around to it.

CanastusJan 10, 20163 votes

Being stuck with an unplayable champion until that rework finally happens isn't a good answer to the problem, after all she'll have to wait six more months to finally become viable if they stick to that approach.

The Yetii RiderJan 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Being stuck with an unplayable champion until that rework finally happens isn't a good answer to the problem, after all she'll have to wait six more months to finally become viable if they stick to that approach.

Yorick, Urgot, Taric and Evelynn have all barely been touched while they were left unplayable since massive nerfs/reworks. And they have been unplayable for YEARS.

NagmaJan 11, 20162 votes

yes riot made mistakes , do you think its good to repeat them and let cassio become like urgot or yorick ?

The Yetii RiderJan 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=d5 police got me,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7yzgea0,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T11:07:09.551+0000)

yes riot made mistakes , do you think its good to repeat them and let cassio become like urgot or yorick ?

No, but I know that they have limited resources to do full scale reworks and I would prefer that Urgot or Yorick got their chance before Cassi gets her second.

World EnderJan 10, 20162 votes

Winrate means absolutely nothing. If you like playing Cassiopea and you play her a lot, you'll find ways to make her viable. I hate when people say that "X champion is weak and needs buffs" or "Y champion is too strong please nerf". You have to learn how to play as and against champions. You can't expect to pick up a difficult champion and win with them all the time after just a few games.

Likewise, many champions that people complain about are only frustrating because the person playing them ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING. Any champion, if played well, can be a terror. If a champion is difficult to play, you just have to play them more to understand them better.

I play a lot of Kassadin for example. Many people complain about how gutted he is after his nerfs, yet I still find success with him in games because I know his strengths and weaknesses and the limits to his power.

Don't use a champion's poor winrate as an excuse to complain instead of learn.

CanastusJan 10, 20165 votes

I'm one of the most dedicated Cassiopeia mains in the world with over 2000 games on her alone, 1500 of those were on her pre-rework self. I know her pretty damn well and I'm telling you, she isn't worth the effort of playing anymore. The risk/reward-ratio is entirely skewed to her disadvantage, she simply isn't viable.

MEMEME670Jan 10, 20163 votes

I just see no point in playing a champion with a powercurve set between a 39% and 50% winrate from early to late if you can play other champions like Zyra, Brand or Rengar who have insanely strong early games (58% winrate) that don't ever fall below a 50% winrate at late.

Following this logic, why are you playing any champion outside of the top 20% in the game?

Slamurai JackJan 10, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I just see no point in playing a champion with a powercurve set between a 39% and 50% winrate from early to late

I agree.

http://imgur.com/2e6vLhR

Although, oddly, I don't see any buff Yasuo threads anywhere.

KaisadiIIaJan 10, 20164 votes

You make Jesus cry with your statistically-backed posts and your lack of meaningless, irrational hate.

What's next? Nidalee not being OP with her astonishing 40% winrate?

Slamurai JackJan 10, 20162 votes

While I don't think she's the worst champion in the game, I do think she's only viable as a jungler and only if you play her a ton. Nidalee is actually really hard to play well and really requires quality teammates to be worthwhile; that's why her winrate has a huge spike in Diamond and she sees some pro play but her overall winrate is abysmal.

Also, are there people that still actually think Nidalee is OP? Most people seem to have moved on to the other assassin cat that inhabits the jungle.

iamleburkJan 11, 20162 votes

Seems you're relying a little too much on winrates. Cassio in particular is a tough case because she really needs to be protected in a teamfight because if she's in range, her DPS is even more than Vayne's (pretty sure of it). So imo her late game is fine, her lane just needs a small buff. And i mean small buff.

Cassio's late game niche is like Ryze or Vayne's. It's basically, if you get in range they will tear you apart. Although Vayne is also a duelist, Cassio has a little extra teamfight in her zoning W and her ult, and Ryze's DPS is slightly AOE and involves CC.

QuephaJan 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Seems you're relying a little too much on winrates. Cassio in particular is a tough case because she really needs to be protected in a teamfight because if she's in range, her DPS is even more than Vayne's (pretty sure of it). So imo her late game is fine, her lane just needs a small buff. And i mean small buff.

Cassio's late game niche is like Ryze or Vayne's. It's basically, if you get in range they will tear you apart. Although Vayne is also a duelist, Cassio has a little extra teamfight in her zoning W and her ult, and Ryze's DPS is slightly AOE and involves CC.

But trading away that cc and tankiness, or stealth and high mobility just for more damage, and then still making that damage very unreliable when comparing a cass pick to a ryze or vayne, it just doesn't work. You don't have the tools to deal your damage and the fact that it might be more damage in an ideal situation doesn't matter because your opponents are actually going to be doing stuff and shut you down nearly every time.

iamleburkJan 12, 20161 votes

Not just more damage, AOE Hard CC. Her W also gives her more zoning than the other two. Her team fight is better than the other two because her 1 on 1 is so much worse. I think you underestimate just what she can do to someone if she lands her ult; late game she can pretty much 100-0 anyone just off of landing a good ult. Mid game it's pretty much everyone but tanks.

Not denying she is weak right now, but i don't think her niche is as unhealthy as some would make it out to be. It might not match her identity, but it still is fairly healthy gameplay.

QuephaJan 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Not just more damage, AOE Hard CC. Her W also gives her more zoning than the other two. Her team fight is better than the other two because her 1 on 1 is so much worse. I think you underestimate just what she can do to someone if she lands her ult; late game she can pretty much 100-0 anyone just off of landing a good ult. Mid game it's pretty much everyone but tanks.

Not denying she is weak right now, but i don't think her niche is as unhealthy as some would make it out to be. It might not match her identity, but it still is fairly healthy gameplay.

WHAT?!

Calling Cass's ult AoE hard cc is very misleading since anyone actually awake can turn around during the animation and turn it into a mediocre slow.

Miasma is a rubbish zoning tool. The damage is completely pathetic, the slow is fairly weak, it takes FOREVER to get up to a decent size and at that point it isn't around for much longer. Kog'maw produces a larger, more relevantly shaped slow field instantly, it deals its damage instantly and deals more than you could ever expect to deal with miasma, and it has a longer range than miasma.

Vayne has a solid source of self peel that she has pre-6, it becomes hard cc way more reliably than Petrifying gaze, and its fail-state is still way more useful.

Ryze likewise has a low-cooldown piece of cc that is hugely useful for him, plus he can stand to get a build that lets him take a hit or two without going down.

Cass's kit is GARBAGE for team fighting. Period. 1v1 late game is all she has but 1v1 doesn't win in the late game. If she Q's a target and it backs up behind a bruiser, she just has to sit and wait for Q to come up again because that bruiser is going to zone her out. If she misfires an E on the wrong target by reflex or due to mobility, then she has to sit and wait for Q and E to come up again. If she misses a Q due to mobility or a bad prediction, she has to sit and wait for Q to come up again AND she loses her movespeed buff.

Every time Cass has been decent since her rework were because the numbers had shifted such that she was strong in the early game like she used to be, because her kit works at bullying, 1v1'ing, and kiting, and is garbage at team fighting. What it's good at can let her get ahead and snowball in the early and mid, if the game comes down to 5v5 fights then she can do her best to get in some pot shots but is overall gimped.

iamleburkJan 12, 20161 votes

Lol you are getting really worked up about something really stupid. It's a skill shot, so is Varus' ult, so is Orianna's ult, and Nami's ult. It's not misleading, it takes a little skill to land. Saying her kit is bad garbage for teamfighting is just dead wrong. Like, not even close to a legitimate thing. A late game cassio with peel is one of the most threatening things in the game, she can melt an entire team. Q has a low ass CD so it's not exactly much of a punishment to miss

And no, she has been used at IEM for her late game potential and her teamfight potential. She is a low range DPS, with better teamfight than the other two by a wide margin. And a higher DPS than them. Her lane just needs a small buff atm, that is all.

QuephaJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Lol you are getting really worked up about something really stupid. It's a skill shot, so is Varus' ult, so is Orianna's ult, and Nami's ult.

Those all require movement, reflexes, prediction. There are ways to lock opponents down to reduce their options. Even if they dodge it, they've been forced to move somewhere and you can funnel them into a worse position.

cass requires you to click anywhere on the 50% of the screen away from her during a very long and obvious animation marked by a very loud noise. There are very few skills in the game that lock the direction the champ faces and all you can really hope for is to catch the enemy in a dash animation which is much more about luck than skill.

MessaigaJan 10, 20163 votes

I'd be very careful with buffing Azir. The way his kit is, any slight buff could make him over the top for professional players. Regardless, I don't think I can agree with your statement. Azir's my main/favorite champion (I love everything about him, gameplay/personality/theme) and I find myself doing great most the time.

It is understandable that his learning curve is the steepest in the game (and may indicate a problem) but I just can't see any rationality in buffing him unless it is something related to safety or just very small. Something minuscule like his W's cast range or his mana costs. Any buffs to his damage or range would probably not bode well.

On another note, they could simply bug-fix him. He has this bug on his W where the auto-attack fails and it's incredibly annoying (as it happens frequently but I cannot reliably reproduce and report it).

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'd be very careful with buffing Azir. The way his kit is, any slight buff could make him over the top for professional players. Regardless, I don't think I can agree with your statement. Azir's my main/favorite champion (I love everything about him, gameplay/personality/theme) and I find myself doing great most the time.

It is understandable that his learning curve is the steepest in the game (and may indicate a problem) but I just can't see any rationality in buffing him unless it is something related to safety or just very small. Something minuscule like his W's cast range or his mana costs. Any buffs to his damage or range would probably not bode well.

On another note, they could simply bug-fix him. He has this bug on his W where the auto-attack fails and it's incredibly annoying (as it happens frequently but I cannot reliably reproduce and report it).

No.**Even Easyhoon isn't playing with Azir now.**Pay attention to this point.Because he isn't rewarding for experienced Azir players.Really he is trash pro scene or soloq.He didn't pick All star and IEM.Azir isn't carrying you.

MessaigaJan 10, 20163 votes

He's not being picked all the time now because he's not over the top in high level play like he was for the majority of 2015. Riot is attempting to balance Azir around his professional play so he doesn't become pick/ban again. My point was that if Azir does need buffs, they should be very careful as to what they are to touch. If something is too impactful he once again becomes a problem.

Edit: Also worth noting that he's weaker in comparison to other mids since some champions that work particularly well versus him are popular and strong at the moment (Lux and Zed).

blfUvZ8YbuJan 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He's not being picked all the time now because he's not over the top in high level play like he was for the majority of 2015. Riot is attempting to balance Azir around his professional play so he doesn't become pick/ban again. My point was that if Azir does need buffs, they should be very careful as to what they are to touch. If something is too impactful he once again becomes a problem.

Edit: Also worth noting that he's weaker in comparison to other mids since some champions that work particularly well versus him are popular and strong at the moment (Lux and Zed).

So I want small buffs or rework for Azir.Example;his w soldier's range revert 400 (now 375) increase to ap ratio slightly or only knock up please.

AquariusGineJan 10, 20162 votes

Cass needs a small buff.. she's just worth playing right now. The last set of nerfs really nailed her into the ground

QuephaJan 10, 20162 votes

I want changes to Cassiopeia too, but I don't think we can expect news about it right now until the mage rework. We don't want them to rush out changes half-assedly since that's what got us into this mess and they don't want to rework a mage separately from the rest of the class when itemization and competition among her class of champions is about to be drastically upset.

I don't think there's much for anyone to say until we hear more about the Mage update and I'm satisfied that Repertoir mentioned her and her problems.