Mechanically as a heavy diving/engaging tank, wouldn't it make more sense for his kit to focus on utility instead of damage? His whole playstyle is to run in and disrupt you in lane while knocking you back to his laner. So what's with the need for damage exactly? I'm not suggesting we make him Soraka tier by any means, but knocking him off of assassin level burst might be a smart idea. Just saying
Anags2 votesHe isn't even a problem right now. If they cut his damage down he would need even more utility.
So I guess yeah you could turn him into Ivern and people would still bitch, probably more.
Hec is fine. He has a weak early and is strong when ahead or fed. But there are several jungles above him in terms of strength right now.
But this is the boards so carry on.
LatetotheRace1 votes-Take away from E/Trinity force combo. -Add to Q levels 2-5 Alternatively, make him have to auto once after E to proc TF.
Grift981 votesthe main problem is the synergy with Triforce and Movespeed in general that he has. MS increases his AD and Triforce just gives him a ton of dmg on every q auto. so Nerfing triforce would be the optimal choice but how many other champs would that hurt? (GP, Irelia, Camille are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head)
ScissorsNstuff1 votesthe suggestion that hecarim has assassin level burst is just wrong lol
Ralanr1 votesHe's not really an engage tank (but he does feel like it) but rather an extremely tanky diver. As already mentioned, because of how he gains extra AD through MS, his triforce proc becomes a massive burst hit whenever he engages. That's only when he engages however, as he's a lot weaker damage wise if he's forced to stay in a fight for very long.
Starcraft243ver1 votesHe's far from being an assassin.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesHe is not tanky at all. He is squishy, but builds tanky and has some spell vamp.
RookPusher1 votesDoes Exhaust weaken his attacks because it slows him?
LatetotheRace1 votesYes
Big Lincoln1 votesbecause Hecarim damage is only good on the up front burst. He has no capacity to duel anyone and gets demolished if he's forced into an extended trade
FooDang2 votesWhat? Hecarim wants extended fights for lower CD on Q for cleave dmg and Triforce procs. Healing on W keeps him in the fights longer. He's a fighter at heart not a burst assassin that has to run away after dumping his abilities.
Big Lincoln1 votesput Hecarim up against any actual duelist on even ground and he will lose every time
his strength is in disrupting fights and bursting the carry before leaving
FooDang2 voteslol yea against a duelist he would probably lose everytime. You said he has no capacity to duel ANYONE and would get DEMOLISHED in an extended trade which both are false statements.
Jbels1 votesCome on man, Pantsaredragon has enough trouble winning games with his main as it is
LatetotheRace1 votesCan't balance for highest tier of play alone my friend.
Eedat1 votesHe doesn't really. It has more to do with the fact that squishies dont get harder to kill when they build glass cannon
LatetotheRace1 votesTfw you have to build zhonya's on a marksmen :/
chipndip11 votesHecarim is a DIVER, not a TANK. That's why he does damage.
And on these boards, people think it's silly to have sub-class names when they don't even know what each champ is meant to do.
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
LatetotheRace1 votesHecarim is meant to kill one squishy target, and the disrupt the enemy while soaking up damage for his team. Diver = Assassin tank. Which are generally of poor design.
chipndip11 votesThe point is that he's more mobile than actual tanks, does more damage than tanks, but isn't as tanky as said tanks. He melts easier, and if you screw up his dive, he kamikazes for nothing. Diver picks are generally weaker in the later stages of the game due to this, but they make strong junglers and occasional top laners since they're stronger and more aggressive earlier on, seeing how tanks tend to take a good minute clearing camps in comparison.
There's a CLEAR difference for why you'd use a fighter class champion like a diver over a tank class champion. You'd do well to learn it.
PlsCheckThisBush1 votesHecarim is a Diver and squishy-deleting-esque style of fighter. Most of the big numbers you'll see from him come from his up-front burst with E -> Q (with bonus movespeed from Ghost/E before the E connects) while his W keeps him moderately health along with Courage of the Colossus. Trinity Force synergizes EXTREMELY well with him, hence why it's literally the first thing he will buy (even before completing his jungle item). He tends to go somewhat tanky after that (similar to how Darius will build a Black Cleaver and be done with his damage). While he does excel in extended trades in part due to his Q being on a very low cooldown after stacking it up, if he doesn't "scare" your team into retreating or do enough damage to be a threat he is mostly useless.
He is very binary in regards to what he wants to do, he will generally be looking to run straight into your squishiest member and attempting to chunk them for the largest amount of damage he can and force a winning situation. While someone like Jhin has very little to stop him from sitting on top of you spamming Q after his engage, their team is also down a member of the frontline while Hecarim goes in the back.
While ahead, Hecarim thrives on creating chaos quickly - being able to show up to a lane and run at them faster than they can retreat while simultaneously chunking them for a large amount. He HEAVILY relies on positioning mistakes and being able to knock the enemy squishy into his team (he doesn't run Flash, so his ultimate is the only realistic way to "break their ranks"). Anyone with a Taunt (Rammus, Shen, etc. provided they don't use it during his Ultimate as he is immune to CC effects during the charge) absolutely destroy him, as his E and consequently a large portion of his damage goes onto a poor choice of a target. Hecarim is a walking ball of stats, more or less.
When behind, Hecarim can't do much of anything well. He doesn't fulfill the role of a Diver then (unless you count suicide machine), and certainly lacks the stats to tank up a team for more than a brief moment. This is why he very "feast or famine" much like Olaf. He can't pull off a sick Lee Sin kick and single-handedly win the game for his team with a quick pick while behind, the enemy team can easily turn on him and melt him. He requires being ahead to survive early on to get the damage he needs to transition well. While he can, more or less, guarantee an early Flash by sprinting at someone with his Ghost/E combo, remember he is extremely mana-intensive. Without Blue Buff he will be OOM very quickly and he will probably have to back off after a single fight.
He has 357 Mana at level 3, while his basic E -> W -> Q (just one) costs him 142 mana (nearly 40% of his mana pool). This leaves him with just under 7 Q's left (not accounting for Mana Regen) that deal 50 (+60% BONUS AD - 15.3 bonus gives him a total of 9.18 extra damage for a total of 59.18) damage a pop before Armor reduction. While it looks insurmountable on paper dealing with that many Q's flying around, take a look at other champions for comparison. Ezreal's Q deals 35 (+110% TOTAL AD + 40% TOTAL AP) damage for 28 mana, while having 444 mana at level 3. If he E's away followed by W, he has 304 mana left, leaving him with nearly 11 Q's remaining that scale FAR better than Hecarim's abilities.
Hecarim is heavily balanced around being a mana-based Diver style champion with Trinity Force being his main life force. Try clearing on him without starting Blue Buff and watch how miserable of an experience it is - an OOM Hecarim deals nearly negative damage to jungle monsters and will be out of mana by the second camp.