If you get "shredded" as a tank, you're either building wrong or don't understand tanking.

Lao Fu the Tiger··28 votes·4,984 views

This is a short and sweet post for those who claim that tanking is dead. When I mean tanking, I mean being able to survive a lot of damage in a short period of time. I assume this is what you think, as well. But I constantly hear complaints that "X assassin shreds me when I'm tanking" or "Y champion deletes tanks. Tanking is dead."

It isn't. Tanking does not mean you are immune to damage; tanking means the following two things:

  1. You take less damage (resistances).
  2. You can take more damage (HP).

Of course there are weapons like Last Whisper and Blade of the Ruined King to counter tanks to a certain extent (though not entirely), but they still don't melt through tanks super fast if the tank is actually building like a tank (meaning, sometimes NO offensive items). If these items did not exist, tanks would be hilariously and stupidly powerful, moreso than they already can be come late game.

I just wanted to get people discussing this. People need to realize that tanking does not in fact mean you can sit in the midst of five enemies taking damage for 15 solid seconds from all of their abilities. You will die. Tanking does not mean that you will last even 10 seconds in a 1v5. A tank's job is to provide an initiation for a team and disrupt the opposing team, while having the survivability to do so without immediately dying, so that the other members of your team can take advantage of the situation and act accordingly. If the team does not follow up, you can and will die just like anybody else.

One last note: If you are fighting against a fed Master Yi or a fed Zed or a fed ADC and you don't build a Thornmail and/or Frozen Heart as a tank, you have no place to complain when they eat you up after sticking to you and auto attacking you 28 times.

21 Comments

Nucleophilic atk18 votes

Two things.

  1. Last whisper is stupid OP. It is effective against everyone, not just tanks. Shouldn't be the case.
  2. You are completely right. I play tank games and die like 3 times all game lol. People try to just run 1v3 because "muh tank" and die and then "wtf tanks suck".
Lao Fu the Tiger8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dzb7UaWA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-21T16:31:43.509+0000)

Two things.

  1. Last whisper is stupid OP. It is effective against everyone, not just tanks. Shouldn't be the case.
  2. You are completely right. I play tank games and die like 3 times all game lol. People try to just run 1v3 because "muh tank" and die and then "wtf tanks suck".

Last Whisper is an interesting case. It's interesting because with the stats it gives right now, it's perfectly balanced and necessary when fighting against tanks, while at the same time being overly strong against people with less resistances.

The purpose of the item was to be able to counter tanky builds so that somebody like Dr. Mundo with a Sunfire Cape couldn't just turn on his W and ult, walk into your team and sit there pounding your team for thousands of damage without any form of punishment. The item still makes Mundo and other tanks think about their positioning and what they plan to do when they engage, which is actually quite a healthy mechanic. Yes, Last Whisper nullifies tons of gold's worth of damage, but it doesn't nullify all of it, and it certainly doesn't eliminate tanks.

The reason Last Whisper is seen as problematic is because of the fact that it does plenty of damage to people who have very little resistances, or maybe even one or two small resistance items like you'd see people build later in the game. It's one thing for LW to nullify 100 armour against a tank who still will have 200 more, AND a whopping 5,000 HP, but it's another, and in my opinion much larger, impact to remove a significant portion of resistances for a champion who may have barely more than 2,000-2,500 HP and maybe only 120 (effectively 75) armour.

As a whole I think Last Whisper is fairly balanced against tanks, but a bit strong against targets with lower resistances. While I don't see it happening, I could definitely see something scalar like 30%-40% (or 25%-35%, pick your poison, I'm no balance expert) armour penetration based on the target's armour. That way, it's as effective as it should be and was designed to be against tanks, while not being overbearing against squishies.

The other, more practical alternative is to simply raise the price, because I don't think it's the innate power people complain about, but the gold efficiency of the item.

Duke Anax5 votes

Yeah it's quite balanced against tanks, but too strong against anyone else. But that would be easy to solve.

If it were to take about 45% bonus armor instead it would be about the same efectiveness against Tanks, but much less effective against squishies.

Rubber Jesus1 votes

I have wondered why armor pen is so OP ATM, especially on AD assassins/casters, thinking it may because they benefit from AD and armor pen from casting as well as AA, while mages only benefit from magic pen when casting spells and are SOL when they are on CD. After this AD champs are done with their spell burst, if it doesn't finish the target, they still benefit from AA doing increased damage, with armor pen so they can easily finish off enemies that don't die from the burst. Yes, I do buy thornmail, but with lifesteal sometimes it is just isn't enough. Lifesteal is another way to make armor pen more OP, because they heal for more as well, which mages do not have. I have been seeing more and more teams with increasing amounts of AD champs on them, and it seems mages are becoming outclassed in general. It is hard to tank against full AD teams, even when you start buying armor from the very beginning (usually jungle tank, so I buy Randuin's after Cinderhulk).

I find Yasuo extremely problematic if he happens to get a few early kills when he goes into late game, after getting a successful ult off. I wondered why they overloaded his kit with so much damage potential, with the double crit passive and 50% armor pen after an ult, then based his whole champion kit off of wind as a resource, which gives a shield. This shield has had to be nerfed after release, where it only lasts a small amount of time and is weak. I wonder what would happen if they removed his double crit, and buffed his shield significantly to compensate, considering that's his resource and the whole basis of his character. It would allow more dives, done safely, while also allowing counterplay for the enemy, and still give him opportunity to get insane damage with 50% armor pen after ulting. A last whisper on Yasuo isn't needed, but when it is built when he is ahead, or a Black Cleaver, he does almost true damage to tanks for 15 seconds after an ult, with 100% crit chance.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dzb7UaWA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-21T16:31:43.509+0000)

Two things.

  1. Last whisper is stupid OP. It is effective against everyone, not just tanks. Shouldn't be the case.
  2. You are completely right. I play tank games and die like 3 times all game lol. People try to just run 1v3 because "muh tank" and die and then "wtf tanks suck".

lol IKR!

Malphite Flash Ults into the baron bit while the rest of his team is at blue, dies, "WTF, noob team. gg."

Vycky9 votes

I'd like to add in something called Kiting as a Melee.

Most tanks that I play with end up getting hit with slowing abilities, and then they keep running at the enemy carries in a futile attempt to try and do what little damage that have.

No.

I'll take Renekton as an example. A Renekton, if unable to get to the enemy backline should simply dash in with Slice once to make the enemy carries reposition away from his allied carries and then Dice towards his teammates and out of range of any enemy damage. In this way, Renekton creates distance between his allies and the enemy team and dashing back towards his own team means the enemy carries have to chase forward while not doing damage in the process. This is the highest form of tanking and can be applied to why AD-Carry type champions are so valued in the late game. In effect, ranged champions, as long as they are doing damage, are ''tanking'' in their own way.

aperson12 votes
ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Bravo sir. A light of reason amongst the chaos of the boards.

Plus with new Cinderhulk, Tanks are definitely coming back AS tanks. I've gotten up to 5000 health Sion, and still had one more item slot for either more health or a Pure Armor/MR item. Even won a game as Nautilis against a Fed Kassadin. Lock-downs OP.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

Crowd- Control

The one of the most important key point to master a true tank champion.

BlizzardMOBAsoon1 votes

Unless you're Warwick, then you can be a tank and a eat everyone while tanking.

xX420n0sc0pzXx1 votes

{quoted}

Unless you're Warwick, then you can be a tank and a eat everyone while tanking.

I find that Chogath is better for being a tank and eating people.

ReiAngel1 votes

Um, is it weird that i go tanky mode when i play Sona?? XD It works most of the time unless the enemy team is stupid fed. Several matches i went 1v1 against enemy adc and won. Once it was me against 3 adcs (idks y the hell they thought that was a good idea, i think it was ranked. thats prob y.) and i took down from full hp to under half. Killed one, then one of my teammates appeared and i killed the second, died and my teammate finished off the third. It works best when enemy team is full ad. Ap is just stupid cray cray and no items have 100 mr -_-

TotalJerk1 votes

Considering:

  1. The nerfs
  2. a complete lack of escapes early game
  3. a short offensive range for a poke mage since she needs to land an AA to actually do any damage
  4. needing to be withing 350 range of allies to be useful, meaning she's easily accessible by the enemy
  5. Being one of the squishiest champions in the game

I can understand why you'd build defensive stats on Sona.

Shïren1 votes

My only comment to add is that if youre trying to tank a master yi that's fed, you will die horribly considering the entirety of his damage comes from the TRUE damage that is his e that is NOT affected by things such a thornmail. So a fed master yi is going to truly shred a tank regardless and still walk away. Doesn't mean youre cinderhulk and sunfire cape and thornmail wont still hurt him bad or even kill him, but hes definitely going to still absolutely murder you.

Tryce Maxwell1 votes

{quoted}

My only comment to add is that if youre trying to tank a master yi that's fed, you will die horribly considering the entirety of his damage comes from the TRUE damage that is his e that is NOT affected by things such a thornmail. So a fed master yi is going to truly shred a tank regardless and still walk away. Doesn't mean youre cinderhulk and sunfire cape and thornmail wont still hurt him bad or even kill him, but hes definitely going to still absolutely murder you.

As with this, yasuo gets massive, magical penetration. This combined with a last whisper is already basically true damage. Last whisper's % of armor ignore might need to come down slightly.

Shïren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tryce Maxwell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dzb7UaWA,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-03-22T06:09:19.356+0000)

As with this, yasuo gets massive, magical penetration. This combined with a last whisper is already basically true damage. Last whisper's % of armor ignore might need to come down slightly.

Im pretty sure yasuo doesn't get much from having last whisper from his ult. itll just bump him to the 40% caus eyou can only have the 40% if I am correct if not then feel free to correct me. Yasuo has enough free damage as it is anyway.

Minrog1 votes

I doubt anyone right now is saying that tanking is dead, it seems like a weird argument.

For a while there is sort of was dead though. When every assassin could wipe out a tank in a single damage combo it was at least dormant. As a side note, before League of Assassins there was the League of Tanks.

I personally don't like having characters exist in the game who can delete tanks in a single damage combo. People who enjoy that sort of gameplay probably don't like having to deal with a character who can survive it to fight back. The old arms race.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well Tanks are supposed to be able to counter Assassins and burst casters by surviving their burst... and Tanks are countered by sustained damage and Sustained damage is countered by burst

That is how it generally works... though most of champions have some mix of the traits above... like pretty much all champions who build a lot of AD even if they are Assassins they do have some sustained damage in their auto attacks

Big Bang Bob1 votes

I love playing Shen because I split push and no one can stop me. I'm so tanky that I can either duel you, or run to a wall and ninja dash through it. When a team fight happens, I can still be right there.

Champion Skin1 votes

I don't really see Frozen Heart or Thornmail being particularly effective against Zed... As I am pretty sure the effective health of a randuins would be more useful as the effect of Thornmail isn't all that great against Zed as he doesn't auto attack that much and the same with Frozen heart

5oulDARK1 votes

you have no idea what you are talking about. Tanking means fearlessly running in the enemy team and dying so the team can fight. if you get shreeded as a tank, it means you did a good job of tanking enemy damage. and if your team cant win the TF, its their fault, you did great

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