What if Manamune received the Archangel's Staff treatment?

YumaS2Astral··26 votes·2,913 views

Give it 20% cooldown reduction, or 10% if 20% proves to be too powerful.

I say that because one of the reasons why many potential users of Manamune do not take it at all is also the reason why many potential users of Archangel's Staff didn't used it: you take too much time to stack it if you don't have any cooldown reduction, so you are left with an item that delays your early game powerspike and gives you few offensive benefits compared to old Morellonomicon. And even if late game it technically gives you "more" power, again, you are lacking in cooldown reduction, so your spells are stronger, but you have less rotation opportunities (unless you compensate it with other items in your build, but you are probably still sacrificing other potential items). With Archangel's Staff having cooldown reduction, you can stack it faster, and even if it gives less early game power than other possible mana options (Ludens and GLP) the late game power more than compensates for that. This significantly increases the viability of Archangel's Staff on champions that are not named Ryze or Cassiopeia. Examples include Malzahar, Veigar, and Xerath.

Many potential users of Manamune/Muramana suffer from the same problem. They could use them, but this item takes too long to stack, that and the lack of other useful offensive stats like cooldown reduction or lethality means that all potential users of this item don't build them because you sacrifice too much by going for that build path. The only exception is Ezreal, because he doesn't actually have a better build path (that's one of the reasons why jungle Ez got popular in the past, he didn't had to build Tear)

If Manamune had cooldown reduction, more potential users could build it. An example is Jayce. He takes too long to stack a Tear, so he is better off building lethality for a better early spike and just being conservative with his mana pool. With Manamune having CDR, this could no longer be the case. Going directly for lethality would still be a better early game build path, but Jayce would now have another option he could consider if he wanted to have a better late game. Other potential users: Lucian (he can double proc Muramana with his passive), Kha'Zix (he can proc Muramana twice with a single auto if empowered by his passive), Varus (tear/lethality Varus mid could be a viable choice once again)

Of course Ezreal would have to be looked at, as this would be a big buff for him, but I think that we shouldn't stop making potentially healthy changes to the game just because one champ can abuse them.


An idea would be to change the item 1037 in Muramana's build path to a item 3133 - this would also make the build path way smoothier, giving champions even more of a reason to build Muramana.

43 Comments

WiegrafOfValor18 votes

Really? CDR of all things? We have too much CDR in the game.

Find some other way to buff Ezreal.

YumaS2Astral7 votes

{quoted}

Really? CDR of all things? We have too much CDR in the game.

Find some other way to buff Ezreal.

The thing is, CDR would make perfect sense with this item, when CDR is a much needed power spike for champions that could use Manamune, not to mention CDR allows a champion using it to stack it faster.

And it is not like overcapping CDR is a problem now that Transcendence exists.

WiegrafOfValor8 votes

Same can be said for Attack Speed, since manamune gain stack with every AA.

I think the only buff manamune really need is:

Bonus AD equal to 3% max mana. (from 2%) Mana Charge grants +8 max mana. (from +5 max mana)

YumaS2Astral4 votes

{quoted}

Same can be said for Attack Speed, since manamune gain stack with every AA.

I think the only buff manamune really need is:

Bonus AD equal to 3% max mana. (from 2%) Mana Charge grants +8 max mana. (from +5 max mana)

But since Muramana is mostly used by AD casters instead of AD auto-attackers, CDR is still the perfect stat to give to it.

Häxel3 votes
  1. You have to keep in mind that some of the originaly muramana users like Yorick and Urgot got reworked and no longer want this item cause it gives no health and less damage. Cdr will not realy add something they want. Old Yorick had similar to Jayce tear for high manacosts. Old Urgot could proc on his q muramana similar to Ezreal on his q. New Urgot procs it with each w stack but that draisn his mana realy fast and so it is bad.
  2. Also do you realy believe there is to less cdr in Ad builds? There is already enough cdr, especialy on ad with probably the most accesible amount of cdr items. Why would Jayce want a Muramana if he can get item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 ? Alternatives would be item 3812 and item 3156 . Ad Junglers even have item 1400 . You know the times Jayce wants Muramana and the times he don't want it? If either the Manarunes are to strong or to weak and if fights last to long or to short. In pokemetas or with weaker manarunes Jayce sure tends far more to build tear. Muramana is jsut not attractive cause mana isn't that big of a deal with Manarunes and most ad champs want ad, lethalaty, health, armor or mr.
  3. Do you want to make Ezreal Godtier? Like Ryze got already much out of this change, from ba 43% winrate in soloq (and still high favorabel in competive) to like enarly 50%. Ezreal would be a 56 or 60% winrate champ if you not gut his q damage or attackspeed and then you would make this item even more mandatory as it already is (you know, jungle ezreal could skip that item in the past). You know, Diffrence with the item 3040 champions is that they actualy got most times old Morellos as third item. All patch 8.4 did was that they get their 20%cdr 2 items earlier. But Ezreal till now gets most times just item 3078 or item 3025 plus item 3158 . Maybe Transcendence was in his runes or ofcpurse if he needed a maw he would get one. But adding jsut 20%cdr would make him suuuuper strong. Like he would either just choose other Boots like item 3006 or item 3047 or get even more ad with ionias and transcendence.

my thoughts: Muramana is now mostly good just on Ezreal. Even Jayce builds tear mostly for the spam but not for the muramana effect. Ezreal could maybe get muramana as his personal item like viktor item 3200 item 3196 item 3197 item 3198 . Or give Ezreal a good rework adn either replace uramana or just remove it.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

I like how we just assume this is a buff Ezreal concept.

Nah fam look past that. Buff the item to buff the usability for everyone then nerf abusers. Standard procedure.

TotalJerk1 votes

Ezreal doesn't really care about CDR, though. His most important spell is already so low CD and mana consuming that the stat kinda goes to waste on him.

Sire Hippington11 votes

Manamune needs lots of changes, it hasn't been used on anyone but EZ for years.

  • Tears delays your power alot, si you'd expect a lategame scaleing item form it, yet manamune spikes midgame and then falls off, giving you only a small window to work with.
  • It scales of mana, yet ad champs have about no manaoptions exept for manamune it self anf sheen so it hardly synergieses with other items.
  • The passive destroys your manapool rather fast, which for an item that is ment to fix mana issues is quite bad.
  • The passive gets weaker the less mana you have, so it gets weaker the longer a fight goes. This goes directly against the purpose of a mana item, cause you get mana to have a higher map uptime and stay effective in prolonged fights.
  • The proc scales of spamable singletarget spells and AS. However, the champs that want mana+ad usually prefer getting ad/arpen rather than AS, and most of them do have aoe rather than singletarget spells.

It needs to be more expensive with better stats similar to Seraph's so it actually scales well into late to make up for the tear start.´, and most importantly it needs a completely new active/passive that is less restrictive and doesn't get worse in long fights.

sleepysithlord1 votes

Thats not true. I got stomped by a Ryze smurf a long time ago who built it

RainXBlade4 votes

I remember when Manamune used to have a toggle active where you could activate it and all your single-target spells and attacks would consume the mana like how it is on live, or you could deactivate it and receive mana back when you hit people with your spells and attacks like what it used to. I wish they'd bring that back.

Wimbledofy2 votes

No when you had it on it consumed mana on everything including minions. And it never gave mana back on hit, it only gave increased max mana on hit from stacking.

PB4UAME1 votes

The problem was when they tried to shoe-horn it into being an ADC item for EZ and Varus (and adding muramana, don't forget that manamune existed for quite awhile before muramana was a thing, and it was desigend for bruisers and fighters) and shit, yet it made much more sense to pair manamune with IBG as the majority offense you would need as a mana reliant fighter, and build the rest of your items defensively. Splashing a BV (at the time the best MR item, and built out of a catalyst, giving something like 400-500 mana) and generally useful armor items, like Sunfire, or Randuin's Omen, or even Frozen Heart to keep stacking mana, with the added bonus that IBG scaled off of the extra armor you were buying, and you were getting free AD to scale all your skills off of from the several thousand mana you had built, so you had tankiness, AoE utility every 1.5 seconds, a spell shield/AoE burn/AoE AS reduction/AoE MS+AS slow active/etc, while still maintaining respectable damage output with the Sheen procs and the AD from manamune.

That time frame, and in place of say, a fratmogs build on bruisers and fighter is the only time place where I can remember manamune actually being good. I want to say end of season 3, early season 4? But I might be slightly off on the time. The reason it was good is you had an entire, cohesive build around it, that had multiple layers of self-synergy, and tended to provide at least some of whatever stat they required. I would love to see a return of this build, or of mana being a build consideration.

I used to love going mana + AD on Urgot, Nasus (he used to only get +2 stacks, no bonus for big creeps, no bonus for monsters, no bonus for kills, and it used to cost a fuck ton of mana, and he had a tiny base pool. E was a third of your mana pool at early levels, and it was over three quarters of your mana pool to R->W->E-> and a single Q until you had build 1+ mana items-- completely the opposite of what he is now) and Yorick top, or building crazy RoA heavy builds as Singed, abusing his passive mana -> hp ratio, and who can forget manatank Kassadin with over 2k damage ults with enough stacks, even with little to no AP, and a mana scaling nuke on his W. Or hell, Ryze in general.

But alas, all of that what's really left is basically. . . Ryze with way nerfed ratios, and no more AoE + spellvamp + movement speed and 500 free mana at the press of a button on an effectively sub 10 second cooldown mid-lategame. (god I miss first rework Ryze)

Timethief497 votes

So Ez buffs?

KlydeFrog1 votes

Anyone would use it because why not

Darkin Hybrid3 votes

{quoted}

So Ez buffs?

To be honest Ezreal is just all kinds of dumb having to just spam Q all game. He is confirmed to be in line for a rework but just not any time soon due to other champs taking priority.

Kaìju1 votes

Where did they say that? I hope he gets looked at I just haven't heard anything.

Darkin Hybrid1 votes

{quoted}

Where did they say that? I hope he gets looked at I just haven't heard anything.

I saw it on some post where a Rioter said so, but upon looking it up again I found the same or a similar post stating this:

https://i.imgur.com/IYuUOvb.png

Then the actual comment from a Rioter about this:

https://i.imgur.com/Gf7IPb9.png

I'm not sure if he will still get a rework but even Riot is essentially un-satisfied with what Ezreal has right now.

Anu3isII1 votes

Tristana VGU means mostly one ability changed significantly and some number balancing around the whole kit.

Knowing Ezreal, his W would probably be targeted by them, as it feels one of the least impactful abilities in his kit (for AD Ez), same thing kinda was with old Tristana E (while it actually had a lot of invisible power).

Papa Andrei4 votes

We need less CDR, people to need to make sacrifices with their builds, not cover every angle.

Miku Append3 votes

Don't give Jayce and Ezreal players ideas...

Vizulix3 votes

No. Just no.

Jayce and Ezreal are already annoying enough.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Jayce doesn't build it lul

Vizulix2 votes

Meh, he still does sometimes.

PB4UAME1 votes

When its strong he rivals Ez for being the largest abuser of it. Especially when he used to need tear for mana, and since his W is the most effective use of the Muramana passive currently in the game.

AirKingNeo4 votes

One: Not abuse.

Two: Still doesn't build it because he doesn't need mana for lane anymore.

Thorn Fierce Red2 votes

That will be like a soft massage.

StarGuardianWeeb2 votes

if this happens they gotta slam ezreal into the ground first.

xxxMadLionxxx2 votes

The damage isn't even worth a fully stacked muramana compared to lethality or crit

Stróc Dúnmharú2 votes

They need to rebalance it into a late game item and make it cost more, tbh. 2400 gold for a core item one just one campion (Ezreal, since Jayce gets mana back from his W passive and Pantheon just takes manaflow band and corrupting potion) is kinda BS...

Since its a stacking item, as others have pointed out, it should pay off late game, at the cost of early/mid game power being lower.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

The thing is it doesn't even pay off that much in the end. No matter how you cut it anyone going for Manamune will generally do less damage than an alternative unless they are straight up balanced around it (like Ezreal). Even before we take into account the MASSIVE opportunity cost to buying Manamune, it simply doesn't pay off in time since it A) only applies on auto attacks/single target spells ON CHAMPIONS and B) drains your mana like no tomorrow while doing less damage as time goes on (current mana). As I said, this is before taking into account the opportunity cost of even BUYING the item. A Jayce that buys Tear isn't getting a single kill in lane because he could have opted for 20 AD instead in the form of 2 long swords and had actual damage. The same can be said for MOST champions that buy Tear. This doesn't necessarily apply to Ez since he spikes back up at Sheen and has a total AD ratio on his main damage sources (Q and autos) so levels add damage about as much as items.

Personally it should apply for a lower value on AoE abilities similar to vamp type effects. Being restricted to single target severely lowers the amount of champions that can buy it (even someone like Jayce ONLY gets something out of it on his autos and by that reasoning his Hammer Form W). Also along those lines it should have a reduced effect to epic monsters. Ezreal and the previous Manumune+Lethality Varus were hot garbage at taking baron/dragon because they did PITIFUL damage to them compared to everyone else in the ADC roster. I'm not asking for full damage because we might get some sort of cheese (especially if Kai'sa Q keeps the interaction), but being a part of a role that is mainly used for objective taking, the item doesn't help with that AT ALL besides giving the AD of like 2 BF swords late game.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stróc Dúnmharú,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dxBp2U2u,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-02-28T20:53:50.141+0000)

They need to rebalance it into a late game item and make it cost more, tbh. 2400 gold for a core item one just one campion (Ezreal, since Jayce gets mana back from his W passive and Pantheon just takes manaflow band and corrupting potion) is kinda BS...

Since its a stacking item, as others have pointed out, it should pay off late game, at the cost of early/mid game power being lower.

And the most weird thing is that it is an item that is too weak early game, that in theory should be strong late game but in pratice it is strong mid game - that is, if you stack it fast enough, then it falls off later in the game because it is terribly outscaled by crit.

PB4UAME1 votes

Here's the thing, it was designed for fighters, then RIOT tried to make it an ADC item for their favorite class.

It used to synergize with item 3102 item 3025 item 3110 extremely well, and actually rivaled (fr)atmogs or surpassed it for several fighters and bruisers. (Think Urgot Nasus Blitzcrank Yorick JayceTaric )

It was supposed to be an early damage spike, that continues to scale throughout the game with the rest of the items you purchase, such that you get decent damage, but can still itemize for plenty of other things, such as survivability and utility. 'course, that was before they made Muramana.

OJPhoenix2 votes

I really like your point, and completely agree that Manamune would benefit nicely from CDR

However there's also the issue of Essence Reaver - its so close and yet so far from working well with Manamune

See, Essence Reaver gives a bunch of things that Manamune users would want right? AD, CDR, and Mana Restoration

Except that Essence Reaver needs Crit for the CDR and the Mana Restoration to work

And that's where we run into issues, see Manamune needs to be bought first, but Essence Reaver should be bought after buying 30% crit

But Manamune was supposed to be for AD Caster champions, who don't care much about Auto Attacks or Crits very much

The ones who DO care about Auto Attacks and Crits don't want to be build a Tear of the Goddess because it doesn't give AD

problems

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

I really like your point, and completely agree that Manamune would benefit nicely from CDR

However there's also the issue of Essence Reaver - its so close and yet so far from working well with Manamune

See, Essence Reaver gives a bunch of things that Manamune users would want right? AD, CDR, and Mana Restoration

Except that Essence Reaver needs Crit for the CDR and the Mana Restoration to work

And that's where we run into issues, see Manamune needs to be bought first, but Essence Reaver should be bought after buying 30% crit

But Manamune was supposed to be for AD Caster champions, who don't care much about Auto Attacks or Crits very much

The ones who DO care about Auto Attacks and Crits don't want to be build a Tear of the Goddess because it doesn't give AD

problems

I don't think that Essence Reaver would synergize as well with Muramana as you suggest. Old Essence Reaver maybe, but the current one requires that you stack crit items to be effective.

Also, champions that purchased Manamune would rather build Trinity Force or lethality items.

KlydeFrog1 votes

I was wondering about this myself

LyingOnLine1 votes

The problem with manamune is that it's an item built by and tuned around Ezreal. Make it more powerful, and you merely make Ezreal more powerful.

Until you can decouple it from him, you can't change one without changing the other.

Darkin Hybrid1 votes

It would be nice if this item was just changed completely, to be less problematic for most champs and not too overpowered on some specific ones.

Of course if it were to be changed it should still be kept as a Mana item but maybe work differently, because stacking mana with this item is impossible to tell how many stacks you have because there's no visual identification besides hovering over on the item itself to see if you gained a extra stack when you just randomly cast abilities.

I never really buy this item anymore even after the mage update, unless I really have to. But in my honest opinion this item is just awful, sure it gives a high amount of mana but other than that it feels quite a waste of item space since now there are some what better AP item options. Or atleast I'd like to think that there are.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I think archangles got way too much mana while getting overall less damage than the previous version idk how this is any diffrent than going old tear into morellos into archangles beside being 1 slot but over all giving up more ap.

Bütthound1 votes

If you think his new Ult and kit is worse

You're dumber than a pigeon

Bjørnetjenesten1 votes

Do we really want long range pokers like ezreal, jayce and varus to spike at 1 item? insane poke, cdr and mana sustain? Seems rather unfun for the enemy to deal with.

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