"Maw is too good against AP, ad has better itemization than ap!"

LadyRenly·Apr 7, 2016·107 votes·3,595 views

okay, so let's nerf AP items AP ratio even more.

Zhonyas had 120 AP last year, now it's going down even further to what...70? Jesus christ.

108 Comments

akroOmaApr 7, 201654 votes

You guys are such noobs! Building AP items on AP Mages LOL! Everyone knows you're so suppose to build tank items on everything. Sheesh!

B1naryB0tApr 7, 20167 votes

Then at least give me more than one item that gives AP + Armor.

bill84Apr 7, 201617 votes

item 3170 here.

AckelopeApr 7, 20168 votes

I'd love a rebalanced version of Moonflair on rift. It has such a nice icon :D

cloman100Apr 7, 20162 votes

tell you the truth, i want zephyr back I hope they remake it with maybe an ap qss and add qss to zephyr?

Zephyr = item 3101 + item 3140 + item 3086 ? But nerf stinger to 40 so we have 55% attack speed Zephyr: 55% attack speed, 25 MR, 20% Crit, + Unique Passive: 5% movement speed + 25% movement speed when QSS used? (probably have to get nerfed cause the synergy with other items) + 10% CD

Also, i would like a AP QSS item 1026 + item 3140 + item 3191 AP QSS: 80 AP, 40 Armor, Unique Passive QSS 25% movement speed and + 10 armor?

An Ap hexdrinker would be nice as well. change hex into a shield for 100-200 (scales with level) damage and builds into 2 items? AP Hexdrinker: + item 3136 + item 3191 Ap Hexdrinker: 30 Armor, 75 AP, Unique Passive + 10 MR Pen + 180-260 AD Shield when below 30% health

Maw stays the same

BhagswagApr 9, 20161 votes

Yeah no. Leave stinger alone. Azir's been hit hard enough.

cloman100Apr 9, 20161 votes

By the stinger nerf i meant that Nashors would stay the same or maybe 20% CD to make up for it?

Pierce The VealApr 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Then at least give me more than one item that gives AP + Armor.

Can you give me an item that gives bonus AD and Armor cause I would be fricking happy if you could.

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20163 votes

Why are you complaining? Didn't you guys want a cheaper Zhonyas? Well you got it.

DurfainApr 7, 201633 votes

Zhonya's Last year was 120 AP, 50 armor with a 90 second active for 3000 gold. This new proposed item gives 70 AP, 10% CDR, 45 armor with a 120 second cooldown for the same amount of gold. I think that lets you see how far it's been nerfed :)

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20163 votes

Lool. And last year's Zhonyas was too powerful and effective. This change is better. It allows for sensible use of Zhonyas instead of spamming it every teamfight in lategame.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 7, 20165 votes

Less armor = more squishiest vs AD.

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20161 votes

Well considering they have hard CC, long range spells and low CDs, I'd say they have everything to keep ADs at bay

macromiteApr 7, 201610 votes

not even close.

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20161 votes

Lool. Not my fault you can't.

ayNigerianPrinceApr 7, 20167 votes

Obvious troll is obvious ;/

3TWarriorApr 8, 20166 votes

most ad champs are mobile, most mages only have one crowd control spell.

AD champs have the luxury of gaining 40% reduction of crowd control duration (up to 90% on irelia) and some are even immune to crowd control (Olaf)

most mages have their crowd control ready in at best 8 seconds with max cooldown reduction unless they are a targeted, low range ability.

AD champions can kill an AP champion in as little as 1 second

most AP champions require at least 4 seconds and that is if the target has no resists at all and all skillshots hit

most AD champs can roam efficiently and have high base stats

most AP champs have abysmal move speed and no movement abilities

most AD champs do not require abilities to function

Most AP champs cannot function without abilities

Tank items are irrelevant to AD/AP as their issue is base stats champions already posses and the item itself functioning as an "all for one" solution to a champion's needs

back to ad/ap

AD champions possess 100% efficiency against towers

AP champions possess 50% efficiency against towers (it's actually lower due to attack speed, base damage and only 50% of ap hitting the tower as damage)

if an AD champion is allowed even one moment of freedom (hence the crowd control beats everything is not an effective argument or state of balance), your high priority targets are dead and then their own are allowed free reign on your remaining tanks and support

if an AP champion is given a moment, unless they are an extreme case (such as diana or ekko or akali, all of whom have high base stats and synergy with most AP items or pure AP items), their burst damage is unlikely to finish a target

as it is, there are about this many champions who remain an actual mage and not a "glorified support", : Anivia Illaoi (although AD, I like that she functions by using her abilities and playing on her opponent's weaknesses but she is one of the many champions riot needs to look at as they force an opponent to play against them a certain way or lose) KogMaw (AP kog is still fully functional and extremely bursty), Malzahar Morgana (i'm not sure...she falls off late but her damage and crowd control are better than most) Lux Veigar (most veigar will get bullied out of lane now and never achieve late game, but his ability to hyperscale reveals his actual role as a mage) Velkoz Zilean (it varies for him, but his burst damage is very good if not facing fizz or other characters with untargetability or invulnerability, but even for him he only has one damage spell, making his ability to function much harder as a damage carry and more of the "glorified support" I mentioned)

these may seem like a lot, but it is actually less than half the mage roster and many of the mage roster that are functional are AD based or actually assassins, AP fighters, AP tanks or otherwise not actually a mage

this may seem irrelevant to the discussion of AP against AD, but if half of the roster listed as mages are not really mages or scale too much at range using AD, when AP currently is and was the determining factor for ability damage, then something is wrong with the current system

KnoyleApr 8, 20163 votes

Karthus I think this guy is high...

AninLegions777Apr 8, 20161 votes

I prefer enlightened.

SnugglePuggle94Apr 9, 20162 votes

LOL naw this guy is just a Zed main who trolls people.

AninLegions777Apr 9, 20161 votes

You are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how absurd it sounds. :)

SnugglePuggle94Apr 9, 20162 votes

Absurd? Look who's talking bud.

TheWeatherWaxApr 9, 20161 votes

.. low CD? What planet are you on? If you survive the full combo it's a while before that combo is back up again. Meanwhile the basic attacks will destroy mages. A mages basic attack is more like swatting at a fly than taking any actual damage.

AninLegions777Apr 9, 20161 votes

Basic attacks of who exactly? And if the target is a squishy, there's a high chance they won't survive a full spell rotation. Mages take out two or three enemies in teamfights thanks to their LOW CD. Yes! Check it. Mages have low CD's with high dmg. Brand or Lux ring a bell? Or LB? Need more?

TheWeatherWaxApr 10, 20161 votes

Umm I've run a full spell combo off on an ADC his Maw kicked off and then his Sterak's did.. He lived and got away with nearly nothing but thanks to the fact that he had phantom dancer he was able to get away from me. Slow moving mid-range mage and everything was on CD so it didn't matter. (Sieging his base) CD was a pain in the butt and I had Ionian boots. Lux didn't move fast enough to get to him and he was caught out heading into his base (with his support both escaped I tagged him with a snare, managed to hit him with ulti too and he lived)

I don't play LB. I was playing Lux and he lived.

AninLegions777Apr 10, 20161 votes

If you are talking about Graves, he's basically a bruiser. That's why he survived. Chill, did you have luden's echo with Alacrity echantment on your boots? Cos if you did, I find it hard to believe that you weren't fast enough.

TheWeatherWaxApr 10, 20161 votes

Luden's yes, alacrity on the boots nope. We weren't that far into the game just yet. It was nearly late game but still closer to the mid-game (3 drags in). Nah, I was chasing a Lucian and I was pretty pissed he didn't die. It was one of those fast games (I think something like 28 minutes to finish).

AninLegions777Apr 10, 20161 votes

That far into the game? Lool. Let me give you a useful piece of advice get Alacrity as early as possible. You'd be surprised how fast you are relative to your enemy laner. Helps you escape ganks faster and chase after kills. 20 MS is kind of a big deal on a mage with low base MS. You can also pick the MS points on the skill trees. Big speed boost. Usually get 450+ MS with Lux.

Lucian with Sterak's and Death's dance? He's really sacrificing a lot of burst for so little survivability. 28 mins isn't fast. As a jungle main, I make it an objective to get inhib turret at 17 mins. Game ends soon after that.

TheWeatherWaxApr 11, 20161 votes

nod Ok, I'll try it out and see how well it goes. I usually forget to upgrade to tier 3 boots.. I really need to start making a habit of doing that. grin I've had some 40-50 minute games lately so I guess to me it's relatively fast. I think I did try MS on one of my test mastery pages (I'll have to go back and check).

His lane was pushed and I roamed bot a few times (I took TP so I could help pressure lanes). I don't think I've ever build Sterak's on Trist or Jinx (those are the only ADC's that I know very well) but I have built Death's dance a couple of times and I built Maw a couple of times too (neither together though just situational).

In our case we were facing a Ziggs mid, and his waveclear until we had banner and Baron was an issue.

AninLegions777Apr 11, 20161 votes

It's really important. Tell me how it goes.

I build only death's dance on Quinn. For an unknown reason, it works really well on her. Maw only if they have LB. Sometimes I don't and just hope I'm able to interrupt her W with my E.

Lool. I hate Ziggs. If he picked Ziggs first, just go Yasuo. Easy lane.

TheWeatherWaxApr 11, 20161 votes

Last pick Ziggs.. I'd have picked anything else had I known it was going to be a Ziggs. I hate dealing with Ziggs sometimes because of the wave-clear, at the same time once you get banner of command, zzrot portal and Baron his wave-clear stops being a problem.

Thanks, I will.

Actually it makes really good sense to build that on Quinn, it would fit really well with her kit. (I need to put that into my Quinn build).

I don't usually play Yas, mostly due to my severely bad play when I play assassins in general and Yas while not an assassin per se, I always mess up his combos. (I am really bad at assassins).

AninLegions777Apr 11, 20161 votes

Okay I understand now.

Yasuo is quite complex but there's just one thing you should know. If you are ever losing hard, start pushing. You'd be surprised how many turrets you'll get. One game I was 4/11 (I suck sometimes) but I got the most turrets (4) and ultimately helped my team win. Remember, objectives over kills. :)

DurfainApr 7, 20163 votes

As long as we make mercurial scimitar a 2 minute cooldown so that's not "spammed every teamfight" also I'm game :)

Ulquiorra995Apr 7, 201624 votes

Now, let's compare it with defensive options AD champions get:

Does enemy have CC? item 3139 not only has an insane active (which, by the way, is going to have 25% less CD than Zhonya's now) and MR, but also has 75 AD - the most you can get on a single item. And if that isn't enough, it also has some life steal tacked on. So, if we go by Riot logic, I'd suggest reducing AD to 40. After all, we certainly don't want an item with such an active to be a top-end in stats (as stated by Rito for Zhonyas). And increase cool down to 120 seconds. It allows for sensible use of Scimitar instead of spamming it every teamfight in lategame.

Maw is still extremely strong - mainly because its component, unlike Seeker's, is actually useful early game. Shield is enough to fuck up any mage's rotation unless they are extremely fed while also not rendering you unable to act for 2.5 seconds. Oh, and to add insult to injury, it also has penetration - just in case you still weren't convinced how better of a defensive option than Zhonya it is.

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20162 votes

Mate, does the enemy have Rengar? Or Talon? Or Jax? Or Xin? Or Shyv? If they do, then Mercurial Scimitar doesn't mean shit. And let's face it. Those guys are picked A LOT. Zhonyas gives you invulnerability. It's active shines during teamfight when you are being focused. It has saved me in A LOT of situations. When ever I go AD, I only get Mercurial for Zed or Malz. Mostly for the latter.

Maw just got viable to the public (it was viable long before that) but Zhonyas has been viable since the time on Zhonyas ring or whatever it's called. It is in every game or at least almost every game. Zhonyas needed a significant nerf since release and I'm guessing this is is. It's cheaper but it makes for better decisions. It has 10 ArPen. That's insignificant. If you go vs. AD you take armor runes already more than that.

WimbledofyApr 7, 201612 votes

Mate if i'm an assassin I just build more damage and assassinate their assassin first. If they don't have an ap, cool I can just build steraks as an ad champ.

The only reason zhonyas is built nearly every game as a mage is because guess what? THERE ARE NO OTHER ARMOR AP ITEMS. Give me another armor ap item with better stats than zhonyas and i will buy it every game instead of zhonyas if I'm not playing an ap assassin and the enemy isn't zed (which is banned most of the time anyways)

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20161 votes

Which is how it should be! I mean come on. An assassin's gameplay is kill before being killed. Sterak's on Assassin's isn't a good investment. Lategame dmg of mages is off the charts and the shield will proc when you are super low thanks to you not having high hp.

Armor AP items should be strictly for support usage. AP mids have enough resources to kill multiple enemies with one spell rotation. Think Annie and Ahri. Add LB while you're at it. What I'm saying is, if you start giving AP mids armor AP items, it would be abused the way Graves abused Maw, Sterak's and Death's dance.

WimbledofyApr 8, 20167 votes

Sterak's on an assassin is great in certain games.

With mages, you don't have the luxury of building more damage to kill an assassin before they kill you because they have maw and their combo is usually much faster. Zhonyas right now is fine, but its cost is insane and now they want to nerf it? Adding 1 more armor ap item won't break any ap mid champs like graves is. Graves is as strong and tanky as he is because his E gives him a big armor/mr steroid.

Maximum MordeApr 8, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Lategame dmg of mages is off the charts...

Hahahahahahaha, oh god that's funny. Have you ever actually seen the numbers a typical ad build does just by right clicking? Then remember that they do that about 1.5-2 times per second. Yeah, gtfo here with that mages damage being off the charts, cause it isn't. A spell does about as much as a solid auto attack.

AninLegions777Apr 8, 20161 votes

I hope you are trolling. You are forgetting that there are more Armor options than Magic Resist meaning if you have a Rammus or Malphite or Trundle or Olaf or Any fcking tank in your team, then that dmg they have is heavily reduced. Meanwhile LB, Ahri and Annie killing 200 MR tanks with ease. Stop trying to sell me shit. I'm not buying.

Maximum MordeApr 8, 20165 votes

ADC will often kill a tank faster than an AP will, even when said tank has itemized against AD. There is a reason armor goes higher than MR easily, because AD straight does more consistent damage than AP does, and stacking MR makes mages completely ignoreable. A couple hundred MR on. 4k health pool is all you need to ignore 99% of magic damage dealers out there since it comes in long cooldowns. Surviving the combo means you live for a long time. AD shooting you in the face is never ignoreable.

AninLegions777Apr 8, 20162 votes

Your first statement is arguable. An ADC can never kill a rammus. Even vayne can't. Meanwhile if a Lux or Brand should fight a rammus, well RIP rammus. Annie bursts entire teams killing at least 2 enemies in a single spell rotation then proceeding to use Zhonyas while her team cleans up. ADC's can't do that. MF can't even do that cos she doesn't have a stun.

TL:DR: Mages deal more dmg, TOTAL. Mages have AoE spells to take out/dmg multiple enemies.

Edit: If you don't believe me, check here: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend The first 7 champions are AP. Do you want to still argue now?

Maximum MordeApr 8, 20163 votes

Talon eliminates multiple people at the same time as well, so will Twitch/Jinx. Total damage is not a useful statistic for evaluating contribution to a team. Damage applied to the correct target at the correct time is more important or we wouldnt have an ADC or three on every team XD. There is no denying that mages often top damage for doing AoE, I simply argue that the number doesn't have that much value attached to it.

As for Rammus, he's kinda a special case, but you are wrong about him fighting mages. If he manages to get o top of them, then they die just like an ADC does as long as you have something like Abyssal/Rylais. I always have that on Rammus cause his ratios are kicking. Those two items alone destroys squishies while you devote the other four slots to pure tank. Can easily soak a Lux or Brand combo three times over come end game.

AninLegions777Apr 8, 20161 votes

Nah. Talon is not as effective as Annie or Ahri. Twitch is over an extended period. Annie is almost instant.

Damage applied to the correct target at the correct time is more important

This is true but then AoE dmg spells also dmg the correct target and in the case of Annie, LB or Brand, the correct target would most likely be caught in the spells.

What about Malphite? Or Trundle? Or Garen? There are a lot.

Yes. IF he manages to get on top of them which is quite hard considering most have hard cc preventing that. Annie would just get Rylai's, use her ult to interrupt his Q while Tibbers slows him down and she just keeps kiting him. If he DOES manage to get ontop of her, she'll flash. But after this mid-year mage update, she can use her item to dash away.

Maximum MordeApr 8, 20162 votes

Its true that mages can often catch the valuable targets in thier combo while doing good damage to surrounding victims. Sometimes they get their spells body blocked though and aren't terribly useful. Can't body block an Auto attack unless you are one of a select few champs.

Malphite Garen and Trundle all get rekt by ADCs in a duel that aren't stupid. They are still good though because in a Team fight, they cause disruption that allows their own team to try and get the edge.

Once someone is in range of Rammus R when he has a Rylais they aren't getting away without a dash. Hell, Rammus ult alone does about 2k damage with Rylais/Abyssal.

NineTailedMysticApr 8, 20164 votes

Ahri killing a tank. That's a good one. She won't be doing that without a long time kiting.

AninLegions777Apr 9, 20161 votes

Lool. High AP ratios + True Damage + Amp on E + Void staff = In Phreak's voice Tons of Damage

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20161 votes

2.74 AP ratio total if she hits EVERYTHING, which she shouldn't since she should be using ult to kite back which is - 0.9 AP. True damage only on the back part of Q, Charm amp was removed at the beginning of season 5, and Void staff is k.

AninLegions777Apr 10, 20161 votes

Lool. That's enough to kill a squishy and let's do the calculation of the true dmg. At rank 5, she does 140 (+35% AP). If she has 500 AP, that's 315 true dmg. Base CD of Q is 7 secs. She obviously has Morellonomicon or Athene's or both but let's assume she has only one. This means her Q has 6 secs and I haven't added the travel times. This means in an extended fight, she can apply her true dmg 3 to 4 times totaling 945 or 1260 true dmg. I didn't even mention the dmg from her other abilities. No tank can survive that. Quote me on it.

NineTailedMysticApr 10, 20161 votes

I'd hope it's enough to kill a carry. And why is this tank trying to fight Ahri alone? Unless it's bush master Garen and she face checked. Why is he just eating all of her damage? Tanks can dodge too. If her True Damage is only doing 1260 damage all of her others spells are doing less, probably 1000 together. Your tank is behind if he's only got 2k HP