Seems kind of arbitrary to me considering how this item has not been changed in a long time, and the primary abuse cases people point to have been building it since the dawn of time. Did people just wake up one day and decide to plot to get rylais nerfed in the last week or something? Seriously, what did I miss? What's changed all of a sudden that this item is just getting attention now?
Irelia Bot30 votesThe buff a year ago + mages finally being relavant and effective = Rylai's showing itself as too strong.
Basically the issue is that it is not even an optional item for most mages but a mandatory one with the second highest Base AP and the 40% slow while also somewhat resisting getting bursed due to 400 health.
There is never a reason to not get it over something else in a build due to utility, tankyness and damage all in one.
EDIT: For those who do not know the old VS new slow effects.
Single Target Slow increased to 40% from 35% Area of Effect Slow (instant) increased to 40% from 15% Damage over time or Multi-hit Slow increased to 20% for 1 second from 15% for 1.5 seconds Summoned minions (e.g. Mordekaiser Mordekaiser's Children of the Grave.png Children of the Grave, Annie Annie's Summon- Tibbers.png Summon: Tibbers) now slow on-hit 20% for 1 second
Reverting the slow changes would likely solve most if not all of the issues the item currently has but Riot is not likely to revert them given their history.
Shaydrox7 votesI 100% agree with this. Every champion with the slightest form of sustained spell casting can almost permaslow you, something that feels really crappy as it's a rather powerful 40% slow. Viktor for example in between his ult shocks and his Q can keep a target slowed for an easy 5 seconds.
Warlord Zudane1 votesThey can't permaslow you. They can only slow you as long as they continue to attack you. Fight back, it's a squishy mage - that's their weakness.
AMYS GRAVE9 votesdeath 
wont 
stop 
the 
slows
Requiemsfire4 votesWhen they stacked Rylais, Rod of ages and Zhonyas together, are they really squishy anymore?
bill847 votes
Yes
doombotMECHA1 voteswell, they don't actually have that much armor, so attackspeed/botrk carries like vayne/kog can down them, and they've got next to no mr, so maybe other sustained damage mages?
Requiemsfire1 votesThe overall effective HP is pretty significant. Yes an ADC would be able to kill a mage building even those items but generally mages build can build fairly tanky despite their range and CC while applying slows on top of that. Not trying to argue that mages are somehow tanks but if you added up their hp and resistances you'd realize they gain a huge amount of survivability.
Also gotta remember 
exists too.
It Hertz When IP1 votesDurations got reduced though. Personally I'd rather deal with a strong but brief slow than a weaker but longer one.
Irelia Bot6 votes[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PEUTMX2p,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2016-07-24T22:52:23.644+0000)
Durations got reduced though. Personally I'd rather deal with a strong but brief slow than a weaker but longer one.
For the 40% on abilities that are refreshed every half second I would take the 15% slow any day.
specter42418 votes40% slow regardless of the type of ability is really dumb. Riot went on a campaign against perma-slows but they buffed Rylais. It used to be 15% for aoe abilities and 40% for single target which made it less abusable.
Critmaster Garen3 votes40% slow regardless of the type of ability is really dumb. Riot went on a campaign against perma-slows but they buffed Rylais. It used to be 15% for aoe abilities and 40% for single target which made it less abusable.
^ they nerfed skarner because of his perma slows. they repeatedly stated they dont want perma slows as part of the game. for some reason rylais is allowed to break this rule.
plus, the stats it provides at the same time are too much aswell. its the ultimate item to kite. makes you beefy, gives you a shitload of straight ap to deal damage, and creates perma slows.
its way too strong all around. either it needs its ap and hp nerfed to 80/300, or it needs the slow mechanic reworked again.
imo its the passive that should be changed, because thats the actual problematic part. nefing the stats wont resolve whats wrong with the item.
i dont know why they dont make it a decaying slow with a longer cooldown like they did with a lot of slows already. you can reapply it but t onyl slows noticable for 1 or 2 seconds and then decays fast to a small value. ths decay only rests every 10 to 20 seconds on a champion.
Paroe7 votesAzir. DPS mages. Its mostly the DPS mages who use it very aggressively to keep you in their range.
it definitely needs less of an interaction with DPS mages. Pets shouldnt proc it period (malzahar and sand soldiers) and constant application should apply less of an effect (say down a tier each time its re-applied?).
redfeenix6 votesMages who can use spells constantly ie Cassiopeia and azir can perma slow you. These skills are supposed to be really strong and the counterplay move away from them.
However now that counterplay is gone because they can perma slow. I suggest adding some sort of cool down for the rylais slow, perhaps it can only activate ever one or two seconds.
This way it should affect regular mages who use him like zigs r Viktor, but it would need those machine gun mages like Cassiopeia or azir who abuse it.
I'm assuming you haven't played vs a rylais Cass or azir ? You would be complaining once you do :p
Catastrop1 votesYeah this has existed for years now, don't see why people are choosing to complain now.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYeah this has existed for years now, don't see why people are choosing to complain now.
it has been changed recently...
it didnt always slow for full effect on aoe abilities. it didnt always have 100 ap and was generally such a stat efficient item. swiftes have been nerfed aswell.
Catastrop1 votesMy point still stands, this has been a thing for at least a few months, the sudden outrage is completely unjustified. I will admit that as a primarily defensive item, the AP should be nerfed a bit, everything else should be kept the same.
Critmaster Garen2 votesMy point still stands, this has been a thing for at least a few months, the sudden outrage is completely unjustified. I will admit that as a primarily defensive item, the AP should be nerfed a bit, everything else should be kept the same.
nooo. your point has been disproven on several instances. the swifties nerfs alone were only recently.
Sire Hippington6 votesContext
Back when Rylai's was changed, some people includeing my self already voiced concerns. However, thx to the rather bad state of mages overall, Rylais was a rare sight in most peoples games, and in pro play it were victor and azir, tow champs that are kinda broken on their own and naturally synergies well with the item, so no one cared muctch about them useing rylais and beeing strong, so that metter was fast forgotten and the general opininion was that it were outliners that got nerfed acordingly(like Eve)
However, since the mage update, mages are seen much more frequently, and most of them, especially those that see competetive play, do use rylais as a core item. People only complain about what they see frequently, you rarly see comlaints about champs with very low pickrates either, and once the get popular for whatever reason, everone comlains about all the things that the said always did. Like ekko for example, a small buff to his Q cd in early ranks and some people notice his early lane is quite strong, experiment with tank builts and suddenly we have tank ekko, who does the exact same thing that ekko did since release, and everyone gets hysteric about it. Also, there are usually other things that are more urgent for most players, sp they complain about that and ignore rylais or what ever other issue lurks around for the time beeing. Dynamic que for example der alot attention away from other things, and now the hysterie about that is slowly declining so other subjects get more attention on the forums.
And the Rylai's discussions didn't come up on their own own, but as a 'sideproduct' of other threats that are in some way related to Rylai's The azir nerfs that have some people guessing if nerfing Rylai's instead wouldn't be the better call, in a threat about garens declineing winrate since the mage update many came to the conclusion that Rylai's plays a big role in that, And in some discussions about the boots of swiftness nerfs, many argued that the boots where mostly so popluar because of to many slows and naturaly some draw a line from there to Rylai's.
This is the standart procedure with items, usually it needs quite along time till they are indentifyed as broken, most of the time they the main users need to be the current meta champs for the items to be recived as overly strong, and it needs to be many useers, or users that usually aren't expected to buy that item, else the champs are seen as the issue and not the item that they all built(though it's always a delicate queston to what extend one should balance **around **items and when one should start balanceing the items themself). The juggernaut items are another example for that, there were only very few complaints about titanic or deadmen's when they got released, people belived the reworked juggernauts were the issue at the time but serveral months later they were used on many champs and soon other champs as well as the items got nerfed.
rG Thundrag4 votesThey changed how rylai's worked with certain ability types making it a lot more powerful then also it got some positive stat changes that puts it more into almost an offensive item stat wise.
Gibberwatt3 votesIt's the flavor of the month. Similar to how lucian was getting massive hate a couple months agao, for no apparent reason. And how twitch, who I think is crazy op, hasn't gotten any heat at all. I'm guessing it comes from some youtuber (Magikarpusedfly, Rossboomsocks, etc...) mentioning that he hates such and such, and a bunch of people parrot it on the boards.
LordGeovanni3 votesI hated the change on rylias long ago because of its change from tanky item to mage item but now its a tanky as fuk mage item which while better for tanks what barely have tanky tank items its also means that mages are as tanky as tank with with Rylias and rod of ages while being back line casters and giving up no damage to be come tanky
Keepe2 votesHealth isn't quite the same as "Tanky".
A Sion could build full damage with only a passive for Tankiness, but he'll still pop like a balloon. Just pointing this out.
DKM Bismarck5 votesYes, this is true, but most mages also get either abyssal, zhonya's, or sometimes both with a roa or a rylai's or both, making them pseudo tanky, which is really frustrating to play vs as they are super hard to kill, it's as bad as the maw/sterak's stacking or pre nerf sterak's on ADC's, or I'd say worse because lots of AP items have resistances or hp built into the item.
LordGeovanni2 votesit is pretty tanky they have mechanics to give themselves health back in fights which was taken away from tanks on warmogs and and they seemingly cant run out of mana with their morellos and rod of ages the same morellos that gives them top ap and half of max cdr. all while being ranged and harder to get to so even if you cc and attack them they can survive it walk awya and continue to attack from the back lines
Slamurai Jack3 votesBeing permaslowed from really long range is really fucking annoying.
SwiftKitten882 votesthere are really only 3 OP champs with 
, , and 
because of the soldier auto spam procing it
because of twin fang spam
because it makes his ulti completely inescapable
Critmaster Garen7 votesthere are really only 3 OP champs with
its not jsut those 3.
plants perma slow
minions perma slow
flamespitter
poison
w
passive
q spam
r
this thing is a problem on most ap champs. even the ones who arent currently really strong. because if they were strong enough to be in the meta, rylais would make them just as cancerous as the meta champions who are using it for perma slows.
half the ap champion pool becomes ashe with that thing. its retarded.
i know from experience because ive played a lot of these champions with rylais and the abuse is real. especially tanky battlemages like vlad and swain become monsters, since its so easy to kite for them with a rylais perma slow.
Keepe2 votesSo, what. Are we going to start complaining that Blood-thirster has too high utility for AD Champions? Or Duskblade.
You have to keep in mind, what with Riot's habit of making high mobility bull since Diana came along, that this item is one of the few counterplay measures that Riot actually ALLOWS for them. An item like this SHOULD have it's place in the environment the game has created. Everything should have some manner of counterplay, and this item has counterplay too through masteries and items, as well as through sidestepping skillshots among other things.
If it's really so big of an issue, then you need to look at the environment in game that causes this item to be NEEDED rather than just complain about the item.
Of course, I know I know. "Your opinion is different, burn the witch."
Critmaster Garen7 votesSo, what. Are we going to start complaining that Blood-thirster has too high utility for AD Champions? Or Duskblade.
You have to keep in mind, what with Riot's habit of making high mobility bull since Diana came along, that this item is one of the few counterplay measures that Riot actually ALLOWS for them. An item like this SHOULD have it's place in the environment the game has created. Everything should have some manner of counterplay, and this item has counterplay too through masteries and items, as well as through sidestepping skillshots among other things.
If it's really so big of an issue, then you need to look at the environment in game that causes this item to be NEEDED rather than just complain about the item.
Of course, I know I know. "Your opinion is different, burn the witch."
bloodthirster and duskblade are entirely different items.
and perma slows dont pusnish highly mobile champs a lot. they mostly shit on low mobility champions.
is a rylais going to stop dashes or jumps? hell no. but it practically snares every champion who has to actually run or walk to move around.
a lee sin will still be able and throw a q in your face and dash to you. a tristana will still jump around with her w. a fizz will still hop and dash around even when slowed.
Keepe2 votesThey are different items that offer different utility. I can say that the AP might be a bit high, and it could be reduced a bit, but the utility should remain. You're right, it won't stop dashes and jumps, but it forces the dashes and jumps to be used with more care and thought than just "Why not. Time to be a Donger."
Critmaster Garen3 votesThey are different items that offer different utility.
VASTLY different utility. 5% movement speed vs. slows on spells arent comparable.
permaslows are toxic by riots own design standarts. punishing low mobility champs unproportionally harder than highly mobile champs is not a solution for mobility creep. it reinforces it.
people are more likely to play teams of mobile champions against aoe and permaslows than immobile champions.
FortisDominus1 voteshttp://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rwsU0aIy-nerf-rylais?comment=00000000
I made this thread because every AP champ is abusing the shit out of this busted ass item.
400 hp 100 ap and amazing utility
if they made an item like this for AD's I bet everyone and their mothers would be complaining out the ass. (not frozen mallet)
Keepe9 votesBut that's exactly what Frozen Mallet is.
FortisDominus6 votesBut that's exactly what Frozen Mallet is.
give frozen mallet 20 more AD for the same price and you have about the equivalent
Keepe2 votesYou're right. Nerf the AP a little bit, keep the utility. But that's about the only reason I could see for calling it an abusive item.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYou're right. Nerf the AP a little bit, keep the utility. But that's about the only reason I could see for calling it an abusive item.
nerfing the ap wont get rid of perma slows.
the passive needs to be reworked again. imo put diminishing returns on the slow and have hard slow for 1 or 2 seconds and decay to pretty much 0 even when its constantly reapplied.
Keepe1 votesSo what. We should just remove, for example, Zilean, Ashe, and Karma from the game?
By your logic, you should remove entire teams from the game for their ability to chain-lock other teams.
A diminishing effect, sure. On a DoT skill like Space Aids. But if it's reapplied, it NEEDS to be reapplied. Having any item skill not proc when applied is more or less bad game design.
Mandang02 votesIMO they just need to have tenacity diminish the intensity of the slow rather than its duration, so the stat actually does something against permaslow.
Critmaster Garen4 votesSo what. We should just remove, for example, Zilean, Ashe, and Karma from the game?
By your logic, you should remove entire teams from the game for their ability to chain-lock other teams.
A diminishing effect, sure. On a DoT skill like Space Aids. But if it's reapplied, it NEEDS to be reapplied. Having any item skill not proc when applied is more or less bad game design.
karma doesnt perma slow. neither does zilean. he can just hit 2 slows after one another and then has to wait for the cooldown.
as far as ashe goes. i dont like her ability to perma slow, but its her specific nieche as one out of 130 champions.
ashes perma slow actually started the entire mobility creep in this game. very early on they needed to make more and more mobile champions to be able to deal with her perma slow. if thats not prove enough for you that perma slows force mobility creep, then i dont know what will.
like i said. the issue with rylais is, that it turns half the ap champion pool into ashe, and when perma slows by multiple champions become a common occurence.
TheOvermind3 votesUhm correction ! Zilean main here . Full cdr zilean can spam ew every 3 seconds. That gives you 0.5 s Inbetween the slows. Tenacity changes that.
Critmaster Garen3 votesUhm correction ! Zilean main here . Full cdr zilean can spam ew every 3 seconds. That gives you 0.5 s Inbetween the slows. Tenacity changes that.
ok, but even then.
its still takes 2 abilities in his kit dedicated to slowing a single person with rewind and timewarp. its not just tacked onto sustaind damage, like with rylais on a lot of mages.
TheOvermind2 votesYes correct. You also eat through your mana by spamming ew.
Mandang02 votesOK, and give Rylai's 150 more health.
FortisDominus2 votesOK, and give Rylai's 150 more health.
frozen mallet needs 20 more AD just to be on the same level as rylai's. So if rylai's gets 150 more hp than frozen mallet should also get 150 more hp
Mandang03 votesYou should define what "on the same level" means. I assumed you meant comparable amounts of AD and AP at comparable costs (accounting for the fact AD isn't one-to-one with AP in value).
Also, as much as people want to point at the few cases of Rylais that are actually permaslow, EVERY mallet use is permaslow, so I'm not buying it if you're gonna try to argue that the slows are obviously the same.
TheOvermind1 votesI would recommend they make the first slow strong at 50% and then all subsequent abilities apply half the slow strength at 25%.
Erockandroll1 votesI would recommend they make the first slow strong at 50% and then all subsequent abilities apply half the slow strength at 25%.
That wouldn't cover all the basis though. And 25% would actually make multi hit/DoT/Pet slows even stronger.
[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PEUTMX2p,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2016-07-25T03:35:53.307+0000)
If we accept these champs as the Abuse case, Then even the single target slow would be a problem due to Cass's machine gun spells. Vlad's also gets a lot of benefit due to his transfusion, as well as the stats in general.
But to answer OP's question on when this hate just popped up. With the exception of Azir, basically of of these OP mages got major updates. Some of those champs got better synergy got Scepter, other who already had such synergy got buffed pretty well.
I would also point out that over a little while, Boots of swiftness got a hand full of nerfs. And when that item stopped being OP, people stopped having all that slow resist.
TheOvermind3 votesI used single target as an example of the 50% to 25% reduction. Aoe would be 30% to 15 % of course. You shouldn't be perma slowing entire teams with Aoe just because you bought an item .
