there is another easy solution to the armor pen issue than nerfing lethality again.

Critmaster Garen·Feb 16, 2017·33 votes·2,761 views

give those three items same name passives. ive been saying this for a long time. if this change was done, no matter how you look at the itemization, the buyer would have to make a tradeoff.

want damage against squishies? stack lethality.
want damage against heavy armored opponents? buy cleaver or last whisper.
want to be able to deal some damage against both? its possible, but youll have to miss out on the 20 off ghostblade. it would at least put a more reasonable limit on the stat.

no need for a gigantic game mechanics change and revert the armor pen stacking mechanic to pre season 3. no need to nerf hammer the individual items (maybe edge of the nights active needs to get looked at still).

maybe could even lose 5 lethality and it could be moved over to to 25 lethality (adjust item costs) with ths change, to limit the mixed pen build just a slight bit more.

47 Comments

Starcraft243verFeb 16, 20178 votes

The black cleaver apply an effect ON the target.

The last wisper doesnt, it just enhance your attack.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 201710 votes

{quoted}

The black cleaver apply an effect ON the target.

The last wisper doesnt, it just enhance your attack.

for the person with a cleaver in his inventory, giving the items same name passives would mean, that he is either able to apply cleaver stacks, but doesnt get the personal armor pen off the other two items.

or he would simply not be able to apply cleaver stacks himself. (still benefit from them when a teammate shreds an opponents armor with cleaver)

this is really an arbitrary choice to make by riot. i think the most straight forward solution would be the first one.

Sraeg2013Feb 16, 20174 votes

The most straight forward option are always number changes.

What you are proposing is a rework of the entire armor penetration, not just 3 items.

GGLineaRFeb 16, 20172 votes

Not really, these 3 items are just the usual suspects. Most common buys against armor. Changing these three to this new system would just prevent abuse of the armor pen.

Talon, Yi, Quinn, Vayne, Rengo, and Kha will stop one-shotting dudes if they can't ignore 90% of your armor. It's a solution to a problem that Rito can't seem to figure out on their own.

Sraeg2013Feb 17, 20172 votes

There are 3 lethality items ALONE.

Plus some champions have armor penetration as a part of their kit, which the change would also affect, because they would not interact with items.

It's type of a solution that even Riot isn't dumb enough to apply.

I know "in America, you have a right to be stupid", but at least try to apply logic to your reasoning.

GGLineaRFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted} I know "in America, you have a right to be stupid", but at least try to apply logic to your reasoning.

I don't keep up with this game as much as the rest of you do. I've only started playing near the end of last year.

You need to knock off the tude, because that is NOT a way to speak to anyone.

Sraeg2013Feb 17, 20171 votes

That's what your Secretary of State said, though, hence quotation marks.

GGLineaRFeb 17, 20171 votes

You think I give a damn? With the current administration in place, I do my best to ignore whatever comes out of management these days.

Either way, it's not a way to speak to someone just because they said "these three items are the just the usual suspects"

Do me a favour and hop off that high horse of yours before someone shoves you off it.

Sraeg2013Feb 18, 20171 votes

That's from 2013, though. <shurg>

Regardless, while the idea could be fine, its implementation and interactions would be plain stupid and overcomplicated.

Like Sheen items priority ^10.

HawkefireFeb 17, 20171 votes

Perhaps the better way to this would be to make buying the items themselves mutually exclusive? Similar to the way that you can't have both titanic and ravenous hydra.

Critmaster GarenFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps the better way to this would be to make buying the items themselves mutually exclusive? Similar to the way that you can't have both titanic and ravenous hydra.

you can have both items. you can build a titanic hydra and a ravenous hydra and have both in your inventory. but they both have same name passives.

this would be the exact same situation.

HawkefireFeb 17, 20171 votes

Interesting, I always thought that you couldn't have both in your inventory, but then again I never did try building both of them at the same time. Anyway, I think that perhaps making it so that you can't have both a item 3071 and a item 3035 in your inventory, as in, making it literally impossible to have both items at the same time. This would prevent people from accidentally buying both of them (either out of old habit or just purely accidental), and also bypasses the whole issue of which effect bypasses the other.

serenity7Feb 16, 20175 votes

item 3142 item 3035 having the same name passive would cuck lethality buying adcs so badly. Good.

MrHaZeYoFeb 16, 20173 votes

LW and Cleaver should get the Stareks/Maw treatment.

Leathilty should be melee only.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 20174 votes

{quoted}

LW and Cleaver should get the Stareks/Maw treatment.

Leathilty should be melee only.

the main problem with the stat right now is excessive armor pen stacking because some champions are just piling on all the % penetration and flat penetration items available.

we already have a mechanic to deal with edge cases like this, with unique item passives. it works for other items. i dont see a reason it cant work here.

HyperiönFeb 17, 20171 votes

First off, Unique passives don't stack. That would gut any lethality build, on anyone.

Secondly, Lethality was designed for assassins, so it should be Melee only.

ParallelityFeb 16, 20171 votes

The problem is, they aren't both shields like stareks and maw, ones an armor pen, and ones an armor shred. And they both work completely differently. Also Lethality is more broken on melee champs than it is adcs, i don't get why everyone is a sore ass after an adc or two uses lethality, especially when hecarim, rengar, khazix, and so many others are abusing it so much harder, while all being melee

MrHaZeYoFeb 16, 20172 votes

That's fine, Melee champions need to get into Melee range. Jihn, MF, Varus get to stand minimum 500 units back and blow you up.

Full build Varus can take 70% of a squishy's life bar out from what 800-900 units back. Jihn stands a mile away and 2 shot ults a squishy at full build.

Sraeg2013Feb 16, 20173 votes

You have absolutely no clue.

This solution is nowhere near "easy".

It'd be a nightmare to program and balance properly.

It'd be impossible to stack lethality - THE hardest nerf to lethality possible.
Black Cleaver is functionally a completely different item. I don't even know how it'd have to work to not "stack". What, Lethality and LW ignore the armor SHRED? That'd imply every single armor shred effect in the game would be ignored.
They would still de facto stack, just like Maw and Sterak stack depending on which item is triggered first, or how all Hextech items share their cooldowns, but you still decide which effect will be applied.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 20176 votes

{quoted}

You have absolutely no clue.

This solution is nowhere near "easy".

It'd be a nightmare to program and balance properly.

It'd be impossible to stack lethality - THE hardest nerf to lethality possible.

no, it wouldnt. ghostblade would still stack with other lethality items, runes and masteries. there is no issue when lethality is stacked with each other. what are you talking about?

you could even stack OTHER lethality sources with % penetration of last whisper or the shred from cleaver.

it would only be inefficient to stack those 3 specific items.

Black Cleaver is functionally a completely different item.

so are maw and steraks gage. yet, riot managed to put same name passives on those two items.

I don't even know how it'd have to work to not "stack". What, Lethality and LW ignore the armor SHRED? That'd imply every single armor shred effect in the game would be ignored.

youre overcomplicating things. what changes is not the interaction with armor shred itself.

if a person had all 3 items in his inventory, ghostblades and last whispers armor pen passive would simply be disabled.

the person would be able to apply cleaver stacks but not benefit from the armor pen on those two items.

other armor shred sources, or the interaction between lethality and armor shred arent effected. only the passives on those 3 items arent functional on the same champion. for example, it would still be possible for someone to shred an opponents armor with cleaver, and another champion with ghostblade to make use of that reduced armor and the lethality on his ghostblade.

because the interaction with ghostblades lethality and the armor shred debuff from cleaver itself didnt change.

They would still de facto stack, just like Maw and Sterak stack depending on which item is triggered first, or how all Hextech items share their cooldowns, but you still decide which effect will be applied.

there are multiple solutions to this. but the easy option would just be to have last whispers % penetration always apply over ghostblades flat penetration.

basically the rule of armor penetration formula is

first shred

then % pen

then flat pen.

the 3 item passives could follow the same rule to decide which passive takes precedence over the other item passives.

ParallelityFeb 16, 20172 votes

What he's saying about lethality, is that each lethality item would need a named passive for this to work, which means that you wouldnt be able to stack lethality

Critmaster GarenFeb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What he's saying about lethality, is that each lethality item would need a named passive for this to work, which means that you wouldnt be able to stack lethality

why? i dont see how that makes sense.

HyperiönFeb 17, 20172 votes

Unique passives don't stack.

Sraeg2013Feb 17, 20171 votes

no, it wouldnt. ghostblade would still stack with other lethality items, runes and masteries. there is no issue when lethality is stacked with each other. what are you talking about?

you could even stack OTHER lethality sources with % penetration of last whisper or the shred from cleaver.

it would only be inefficient to stack those 3 specific items.

This is exactly the opposite of the OP.

You said that armor penetration items should have the penetration as unique named passives. That means, only one of items would work.

For your approach to work, you'd need to apply unique names passive to other lethality items, which would prevent lethality from items to stack with each other.

so are maw and steraks gage. yet, riot managed to put same name passives on those two items.

Because conditions to trigger them are fundamentally different.

One activates if you receive magic damage that would lower your HP below 30%. The other triggers after receiving 400-1800 damage within 5 seconds.

For armor pen the only condition is: deal physical damage.

youre overcomplicating things. what changes is not the interaction with armor shred itself.

if a person had all 3 items in his inventory, ghostblades and last whispers armor pen passive would simply be disabled.

the person would be able to apply cleaver stacks but not benefit from the armor pen on those two items.

other armor shred sources, or the interaction between lethality and armor shred arent effected. only the passives on those 3 items arent functional on the same champion. for example, it would still be possible for someone to shred an opponents armor with cleaver, and another champion with ghostblade to make use of that reduced armor and the lethality on his ghostblade.

because the interaction with ghostblades lethality and the armor shred debuff from cleaver itself didnt change.

Your solution is nothing but "simple" and your description of your solution contradicts it.

But let's roll with it and simplify what you just said.

If I have LW, GB and BC, then LW and GB don't work at all.
If I have LW, GB and BC, then BC shred can't be applied but LW and GB do work.
If I have LW, GB and BC, then LW and GB don't work at the same time.

TL;DR If I have LW, GB and BC at the same time, none of them work.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder511/59889511.jpg

Critmaster GarenFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly the opposite of the OP.

You said that armor penetration items should have the penetration as unique named passives. That means, only one of items would work.

For your approach to work, you'd need to apply unique names passive to other lethality items, which would prevent lethality from items to stack with each other.

Because conditions to trigger them are fundamentally different.

One activates if you receive magic damage that would lower your HP below 30%. The other triggers after receiving 400-1800 damage within 5 seconds.

For armor pen the only condition is: deal physical damage.

Your solution is nothing but "simple" and your description of your solution contradicts it.

But let's roll with it and simplify what you just said.

If I have LW, GB and BC, then LW and GB don't work at all.

If I have LW, GB and BC, then BC shred can't be applied but LW and GB do work.

If I have LW, GB and BC, then LW and GB don't work at the same time.

TL;DR If I have LW, GB and BC at the same time, none of them work.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder511/59889511.jpg

youre entiely misunderstanding what i said in the op.

i said, specifically, that ghostblades, black cleavers and last whispers armor penetration/shred passives dont stack with each other if we gave these effects same name passives.

i did NOT say that we give all lethality effects same name passives. seriously, if you really read through the post, it was pretty clear to understand what i meant. everyone else did.

for this purpose we just define the arbitrary rule item 3071 > item 3035 > item 3142

If you have LW, GB and BC, then LW and GB armor pen dont work. you can apply cleaver stacks
if you have lW and GB then you get the % armor pen from last whisper, but you dont get the lethality off ghostblade
if you have BC and GB, then ghostblades lethality passive is disabled
if an ally has a cleaver and shreds an opponents armor, and you have last whisper or ghostblade, you still get the full shred + penetration effect, as the interaction with armor shred debuff itself isnt affected.

the entire purpose of this change would be to make these 3 specific items not stack with each other.

this means builds like this

item 3071 + item 3814 + item 3147

or this

item 3035 + item 3814 + item 3147

or this

item 3142 + item 3814 + item 3147

is possible. but not this

item 3071 + item 3814 + item 3147 + item 3142 + item 3035

the entire point of this change would be to limit how much lethality you can stack on top of a cleaver or a last whisper, by removing ghostblade as an item option in these cases.

it would not affect your ability to go for a full lethality build. only how much lethality is available on top of % penetration.

yes, cleaver, ghostblade and last whisper have different effects. but if riot can add same name passives to maw and steraks who also have kindof similar but different effects to prevent them from stacking, then i dont see a reason why it shouldnt work for the other 3 items.

TeCoolMageFeb 16, 20172 votes

at the very least just make it whichever reduces enemy armour by more rather than making LW always go over youmuu's

SnowFallFeb 16, 20173 votes

Should be "whatever you bought first works"

TeCoolMageFeb 17, 20171 votes

um no, that's stupid and makes no sense whatsoever

GGLineaRFeb 16, 20172 votes

What do you mean "again" I don't recall a lethality nerf at all.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean "again" I don't recall a lethality nerf at all.

"again" as in after they just buffed them and now they nerf them again.

GGLineaRFeb 16, 20172 votes

Ah. Goddammit, I hate English. Can't even blame grammar, since we're both right on the usage.

That being said, Lethality does need a nerf, if not the stat itself, then how much lethality that you can stack should be limited. Full lethality assassins like Quinn and Talon (or Kha and Rengo) are absolutely disgusting right now.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Ah. Goddammit, I hate English. Can't even blame grammar, since we're both right on the usage.

That being said, Lethality does need a nerf, if not the stat itself, then how much lethality that you can stack should be limited. Full lethality assassins like Quinn and Talon (or Kha and Rengo) are absolutely disgusting right now.

i dont think its even the problem that lethality itself can get stacked so high.

the real issue is that the champions who stack a good 80 lethality also get item 3071 or item 3035 on top of that.

so basically if youre a squishy with armor runes and maybe an item like item 3026 , the armor pen stacker still deals almost true damage to you after % pen/shred and lethality. you lose like 40 armor from the last whisper, and then the rest of your armor from the lethality.

and penetration builds even reduce 300 armor on a tank to something like 50.

its kinof obscene right now. making the 3 big penetration items just not stack with each other would just limit those heavy penetration builds.

GGLineaRFeb 16, 20171 votes

Ah, I could see that. I started playing in S6, so I didn't know what you meant by S3 Armor Pen Stacking.

But yeah, if people had to choose between big armor pen items, it'd make lethality much less cancerous.

I got you now, and I'm 100% in agreement. (Not that it mattered, but hey, validation amirite?)

NøbleFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean "again" I don't recall a lethality nerf at all.

When flat armour pen was changed to lethality it was a big nerf to armour pen, even lethality in its current state isn't stronger than armour pen used to be.

GGLineaRFeb 17, 20171 votes

Well, that's not entirely true. Armor Pen was stronger in early, but Lethality is much, MUCH stronger in late. That's the nature of flat vs scaling stats.

Lethality scales a little TOO hard right now, though.

YodzeityFeb 16, 20171 votes

I like this, sounds better than melee only lethality crap

DarkRitualFeb 16, 20171 votes

Make youmuu give movespeed for melee, attack speed for ranged champs. Nerf EoN cooldown hard. Black Cleaver Melee Only.

Start there, see how that pans out before doing mkre adjustments.

GiantEnemyShacoFeb 16, 20171 votes

This is a fundamental failure in understanding exactly why lethality is broken right now.

Lethality is a 100%, direct counter to the one defensive item that most squishy carries allocate for armor. Before lethality, a carry would build armor to counter the damage of an assassin and not be one shot. That was the counterplay. AD versus armor.

Since lethality items both give massive AD and can be stacked up to 60 lethality across 4 items, that's a direct counter to a Randuin's. The problem is that building lethality does not mean you have to build less AD. You still build full AD, only now your build simply counters what used to be the counterplay to assassins.

As an ADC, if you wanted the same protection as you did before lethality, you'd have to build 2 full armor items (with health to back it up), which means you either forego defense versus AP or you forego a damage item, which only having 2 damage items in your full build usually means that you're worthless as an ADC.

That's why ADC's are jokes right now. They either do no damage or get one shot. They are literally nothing more than pinatas full of gold and XP.

TL;DR You can't just move stats around and expect it to be balanced.

EndlessSorcererFeb 16, 20171 votes

Honestly, it would probably be simpler to make Flat Penetration apply before Percentage Penetration, especially now that Last Whisper penetrated bonus armor.

While players could still stack both, Last Whisper would be significantly less effective as the player has Lethality.

Though, this wouldn't really help with Black Cleaver's interaction with Last Whisper or Lethality though.

Does Black Cleaver currently reduce both bonus and base armor by a percentage?

For the interaction with Last Whisper, it could be changed to remove bonus armor first and only affect base armor when there is no bonus armor left.

This wouldn't affect how it stacks with Lethality though...

Gregor GysiFeb 16, 20171 votes

Quite a few champions used to rush Ghostblade before all the changes, it wouldn't be fair to prevent them from buying it just because the play against a full tank team. I think it would make much more sense if lethality was a unique passive (if unique passive is the way to go). Stacking lethality items results in just way too much damage and makes oneshots without ultimate possible.

ErockandrollFeb 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=404 shitlord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=duOgOyBI,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-16T16:40:05.181+0000)

Quite a few champions used to rush Ghostblade before all the changes, it wouldn't be fair to prevent them from buying it just because the play against a full tank team. I think it would make much more sense if lethality was a unique passive (if unique passive is the way to go). Stacking lethality items results in just way too much damage and makes oneshots without ultimate possible.

In terms of Assassin itemization, that would be too much of a balancing headache. All because, if you make it a (named) Unique passive, An Assassins build would be balanced around a single item spike. Making them either way too powerful in the early game, or just completely useless.

Honestly, I think the opposite should happen, reduce the amount of Lethality per item, and spread it out over more items.

Critmaster GarenFeb 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=404 shitlord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=duOgOyBI,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-16T16:40:05.181+0000)

Quite a few champions used to rush Ghostblade before all the changes, it wouldn't be fair to prevent them from buying it just because the play against a full tank team. I think it would make much more sense if lethality was a unique passive (if unique passive is the way to go). Stacking lethality items results in just way too much damage and makes oneshots without ultimate possible.

if youre up against a full tank team, lethality isnt even supposed to be a desirable stat. its meant to be a stat to kill squishies, not tanks.

if you want to fight heavy armor stackers, youre supposed to go for item 3035 or item 3071

or you need to get a champion who makes good use of item 3071 on your team, so the other guy with the full lethality build can make use of that damage amplification by his teammate.

woodvsmurphFeb 16, 20171 votes

as i have said in other discussions on the subject, the simple answer would be making lethality non-stacking for more than 2 items. the best way to do this that I can think of is: make ghostblade the core item and leave it at 20 lethality, and then force people to choose either item 3147 or item 3814 . I mean they could buy both, but the lethality would only be 15 instead of 30 if both were purchased and they could use both passives, but wouldn't get 50 lethality from all 3 items -- just 35 lethality. It would help adc's vs ad assassins, and help everyone vs ad poke and/or ult champs (mf, jhin, varus). And it would force strategic itemization (something riot wants)... do you get edge of night for the spell/cc protection or do you get duskblade for the ward disabling and true damage?

ScorpionexFeb 17, 20171 votes

No the easiest answer would be to switch the formula from the current formula to what it was when the game started to make it so you cant build both and destroy all armor... to clarify before like season 3 it was calculated as flat then % now its calculated the opposite way which makes you able to destroy everyone's armor and do true damage.

this would make everything better lol

Critmaster GarenFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No the easiest answer would be to switch the formula from the current formula to what it was when the game started to make it so you cant build both and destroy all armor... to clarify before like season 3 it was calculated as flat then % now its calculated the opposite way which makes you able to destroy everyone's armor and do true damage.

this would make everything better lol

but that would be a massive overhaul to the game, instead of slightly touching 3 items.

if you just reduced the amount of lethality available to people who are buying cleaver or last whisper, youd have the same effect.

Shaco PsychoFeb 17, 20171 votes

Why don't people consider a lethality cap? Other stats have caps, CDR, atck speed, just add a lethality cap. :P. Maybe 40 or 45? That allows for 2 items.

Although I think your proposed changes are a good idea, I think a lethality cap is an even simpler solution which would fix many of the same problems.

HyperiönFeb 17, 20171 votes

Or you know, you make them melee only.

That is how they were intended to be used in the first place.

Then ADC's were like, oh boy, this is amazing! lets build it and just do true damage to anyone not tanky!