The recent buff to Fizz was literally the dumbest thing I've ever seen

Cloud273·Apr 2, 2017·69 votes·4,888 views

Can someone please explain to me why Fizz needed a buff? Fizz is complete cancer and has ZERO counterplay. The only thing he should ever receive is nerfs (as many as possible).

102 Comments

The Last BalladApr 2, 201718 votes

Something tells me you didn't look at this post...

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jLGvQ3Wk-before-you-make-a-post-about-balance

EunsonApr 2, 20177 votes

Who reads a 2 year old post before posting on the forums...

ModAcademy KaynApr 2, 201717 votes

Because it's Pinned, and got a picture.

TheHappyReaperzApr 2, 201716 votes

The buffs he received were compensation for the massive nerf to his ult.

dominusxApr 2, 201711 votes

yeh. MASSIVE. kappa fk outta here lol

DoktorKaiserApr 2, 20177 votes

You mean the extreme bug that was his ulti hitbox got fixed so he needed AP scalling buffs so that he can have even less counterplay...

PennsApr 2, 201712 votes

"bug" lel

Death by GlamourApr 2, 201715 votes

He needed buffs because players miss skill shots?

TheHappyReaperzApr 2, 20176 votes

Considering it massively decreased the effectiveness of his ult, which his kit had been kept weak, to allow for. Yes, buffs are completely reasonable.

SoyUnPrededorApr 2, 20179 votes

Despite still maintaining a 53% + winrate in mid. Yes, clearly Fizz needed buffs, and not champions like Volibear or Garen.

AritraApr 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Despite still maintaining a 53% + winrate in mid. Yes, clearly Fizz needed buffs, and not champions like Volibear or Garen.

he didnt have that winrate before the buffs.

UnpaladinApr 3, 20172 votes

The ult is still highly effective, just git gud at hitting skillshots fam I bet you had issue with the sejauni ult wiff nerf back in season 5 despite it doing literally nothing

TheHappyReaperzApr 3, 20172 votes

The difference is Fizz ult lost a lot more than Sej did. If you missed, you zoned off an entire area, as the fish could hop to people. Now it can't. Thus, the ult lost quite a bit of power.

MissingKayoApr 3, 20171 votes

But they don't? And didn't? What are you talking about?

If it missed, it wouldn't hit or attach to a person. (Unless they were enough of a retard to walk back over it later)

Ahri a StarkApr 2, 201712 votes

"zero counter play":

-zhonyas -mr

not staying his q range like you do in early game
dodging his E damage -grouping
stop blind picking fcking xerath or twiste dfate -stay away from ult when he hits 6
stop acting like a heroe and fight him all the time

Fizz is weak atm btw.

Im Taylor SwiftApr 2, 201720 votes

i wont say he is op because i dont think so, but almost 53% winrate on mid and a bit more than 50 on top doesn't seem weak IMO.

NyarlathοtepApr 2, 20177 votes

Lets see.

-Zhonyas is not that effective against fizz. I mean yeah the active is good but apart from that its not worth a single penny. Armour is useless against fizz and the ap that it gives is very low meaning that you might fall behind in terms of dmg during mid game.

-Ap champs are in dire need of mr. For example, a ziggs can buy only abyssal if he wants to reduce fizz's magic dmg. I mean yeah he can buy spirit or banshee but those items are not desired most of the times by apcs.

-His q range is 550. That's the range most ranged champs have in their auto attacks. And to be precise only zyra annie and anivia outrange his q with their aa.

-Dodging his e dmg? Are you stupid? xD. Unless he misses. Chances are that you will get hitted unless you use some kind of dash, blink or a sudden burst of movement speed. Also his splase radius is 270.

-That's actually true. Even though still if you get hit by his shark he can most likely jump and still kill you. Unless you have lulu/shen/soraka stasis or anything that can save you.

-That's a bit irrelevant.

-Again that a tiny little bit difficult when his ulti has a range of 1275. Not impossible but surely difficult. Don't forget that he can always close the distance with his q if there is minion nearby. He doesn't really need his q to kill most squishies.

-Most people don't want to fight him. He engages

And finally weak? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

JedenVojakApr 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Lets see.

-Zhonyas is not that effective against fizz. I mean yeah the active is good but apart from that its not worth a single penny. Armour is useless against fizz and the ap that it gives is very low meaning that you might fall behind in terms of dmg during mid game.

Fizz still does physical damage, but yes, you have to itemize against the threats in your game, and if Fizz is carrying it then you should buy something else.

-Ap champs are in dire need of mr. For example, a ziggs can buy only abyssal if he wants to reduce fizz's magic dmg. I mean yeah he can buy spirit or banshee but those items are not desired most of the times by apcs.

You just listed 2 items which provide MR and then say, "but I don't want to buy them." Buy them enemy - even just a item 1033 you can sit on to build later depending on what you need - and if that's MR and health, you do what you gotta do.

-His q range is 550. That's the range most ranged champs have in their auto attacks. And to be precise only zyra annie and anivia outrange his q with their aa.

The difference between his Q and ranged auto attacks is he throws his face at you - if you can't see the risk and weakness of that I don't know what to tell you.

-Dodging his e dmg? Are you stupid? xD. Unless he misses. Chances are that you will get hitted unless you use some kind of dash, blink or a sudden burst of movement speed.

So, basically half of all mid laners. Nevertheless I assume you're talking about immobile mages, so I guess they'll just have to rely on their shields, immunities, and CC to carry them through.

-That's actually true. Even though still if you get hit by his shark he can most likely jump and still kill you. Unless you have lulu/shen/soraka stasis or anything that can save you.

Yeah, this is completely unfair, assassins landing their ults and killing people shouldn't be allowed!

NyarlathοtepApr 2, 20171 votes

Ahem

I will be put on a big disadvantage if I buy banshee on a mage like swain, lux, syndra etc. Sure its going to boost my survivability against magic threat but I will be dealing less dmg. And lately every teamfight is a dps race. And since dmg is so much stronger against defense (at mid/late ofc) item 1033 isn't going to really help me that much.

"The difference between his Q and ranged auto attacks is he throws his face at you - if you can't see the risk and weakness of that I don't know what to tell you". That's obvious. What I wanted to say there is that you cant really always stay out of his q range. If you are a mana based champion you will need to farm with your aa mostly early because you have limited mana. Or until you buy item 3802 .

"So, basically half of all mid laners. Nevertheless I assume you're talking about immobile mages, so I guess they'll just have to rely on their shields, immunities, and CC to carry them through". Lets see how many immobile mages can avoid e dmg without burning flash. Shields. Hmmm. Orianna , Lux , Karma and Viktor . Immunities? I'm gonna assume you mean dmg immunity. So only trynda, kayle, kindred and taric have dmg immunity and not much of midlaners. CC? Well that's the problem with his e. It is basically a mini item 3157 . And you cant really cc him during this time. You can stun him when he falls but you will have (most likely) taken the dmg from his e.

The thing with fizz (at least what I have understand with his design) is that YOU need to be with a teammate in order to survive a fizz encounter, if you are an immobile champ that is. On a side note how do you put quotes like this?

JedenVojakApr 3, 20172 votes

You're forgetting about Lissandra .

Also Fizz E is no different than a dash in the sense that it's used to dodge a shot - it's always seemed strange to me that people freak about the pole so much when any dash will have a similar impact. Also yes, you may need to eat some E damage, but that's a matter of not getting too damage before that point - since he has to all in you to engage, as long as you play safe you should be healthy enough to take a hit so you can stun-burst him or just poke him out of lane.

You can quote by putting > in front of something, that will let you split quote.

NyarlathοtepApr 3, 2017

Indeed I forgot about her.

Also Fizz E is no different than a dash in the sense that it's used to dodge a shot

Well the problem with his e compared to most dashes is that you cant really stun him.

JedenVojakApr 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Indeed I forgot about her.

Well the problem with his e compared to most dashes is that you cant really stun him.

That only matters for targeted stuns, of which there are few in the game. For every other case, his dash is no different from any other dash in the game used to dodge a shot. I think to people it seems to feel worse even though it is functionally equivalent to most dodges simply because they have this idea in their head that he's invulnerable while he does it: if the troll pole was just a long (say 500 ish units) that paused before doing another dash, it would be functionally equivalent 95% of the time.

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 2017

I'm not sure what are you trying to say. Anyway the prob with his e is that you cant touch him. Literally.

JedenVojakApr 7, 20171 votes

I'm saying, there is no functional difference between fizz's E and every other dash in the game 90% of the time. For most spells, it doesn't matter whether it's fizz e or lucian dash, or zed teleport, or just flash; it's an ability that when used dodges your skill shots. The fact that Fizz becomes untargetable is inconsequential, if his E was just a 500 unit dash it would still have the same net effect.

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 2017

Actually there is a functional difference. If for example both you and the enemy fizz is low on hp you will most likely die because you cant hit him if he uses e. That's the real prob with him. With luc you can hit him. That's not the case with fizz.

JedenVojakApr 7, 20171 votes

And if Lucian uses his dash and you don't hit him it's the same exact thing: your ability still misses, and you're still dead.

NyarlathοtepApr 8, 2017

Not really. I might have point and click ability or simple you know predict where his dash will stop.

JedenVojakApr 8, 20171 votes

PaC is the only thing that that ability will beat over the norm. You may predict wrong, after all.

So, given that most characters don't have a point and click ability, the fact that he becomes untargetable doesn't even matter for most of the champion roster since it is functionally equivalent to a dash; which is probably why Riot has not changed it until now.

Pommel KnightApr 2, 201710 votes

You mean the one of two assassins who were under 48% win-rate for 5 months after their rework? You mean the only assassin who didn't get any buffs in the last 2-3 years? The buffs that game him a whole of 0.2 scaling on an ability that has max 70 base dmg on rank 5 and nerfed his ult?

Nice try, shitpost somewhere else.

QuickenedBladeApr 2, 201711 votes

{quoted}

You mean the one of two assassins who were under 48% win-rate for 5 months after their rework? You mean the only assassin who didn't get any buffs in the last 2-3 years? The buffs that game him a whole of 0.2 scaling on an ability that has max 70 base dmg on rank 5 and nerfed his ult?

Nice try, shitpost somewhere else.

So you're saying 53% win rate on a "skill" champ is balanced? One of the only assassins that becomes the most cancerous shittard champ that is immune to towers and any has no actual chance to get locked down and killed?

Nice try, shitpost somewhere else.

Legacy HydralphaApr 2, 20176 votes

has no actual chance to get locked down and killed?

Wait out his E, see if he tends to use it to engage or to disengage and use CC when necessary.

Pommel KnightApr 2, 20173 votes

When was the last time you played the game? I can't find one on Riots site or opgg.

How about baiting out his e? throw a skill-shot that he needs to doge and then lock him down. Do you blow your load at a Kayle with r up, or trynd, all cc on a person with Morgana around, Vlad with pool up, etc. You bait their abilities out and then engage. You also need to go mr against him, not a morelo every single time, just get some mr and you will win.

Abuse him early and force him to back, either push hard or follow his roams. Make sure someone can body block for the adc. Do all this and fizz will be more useless than a ap riven.

53% on NA, 52% on EUNE. Compared to queen op Ahri, not even close. She has 54% with 20% playrate.

QuickenedBladeApr 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

When was the last time you played the game? I can't find one on Riots site or opgg.

How about baiting out his e? throw a skill-shot that he needs to doge and then lock him down. Do you blow your load at a Kayle with r up, or trynd, all cc on a person with Morgana around, Vlad with pool up, etc. You bait their abilities out and then engage. You also need to go mr against him, not a morelo every single time, just get some mr and you will win.

Abuse him early and force him to back, either push hard or follow his roams. Make sure someone can body block for the adc. Do all this and fizz will be more useless than a ap riven.

53% on NA, 52% on EUNE. Compared to queen op Ahri, not even close. She has 54% with 20% playrate.

Bait the 4 second CD ability that makes him untargetable, in addition to zhonyas.

Sure jan.

Abuse him early when he's the one that wins trades?

Sure jan.

Throw skillshots at him when he's landing on your fucking face?

Sure jan.

Peel a Fizz? That's fucking hilarious. What am I gonna do? Try to hit him with abilities?

Pommel KnightApr 2, 20175 votes

E hasn't been 4 cdr with 45% for the last 2-3 years. In laning phase the cd is 16 sec, if you can't abuse the worst laner in league then I have no words for you. A melee with 0 range and you can't poke him, wow this is bad.

How about getting the tank to body block the shark genius, if you can't do that then wtf are you complaining about. You block his r he can't do shit in that tf.

Btw q is a dash, hit him during the dash, he can't f or e during it.

Sure Jan.

QuickenedBladeApr 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

E hasn't been 4 cdr with 45% for the last 2-3 years. In laning phase the cd is 16 sec, if you can't abuse the worst laner in league then I have no words for you. A melee with 0 range and you can't poke him, wow this is bad.

How about getting the tank to body block the shark genius, if you can't do that then wtf are you complaining about. You block his r he can't do shit in that tf.

Btw q is a dash, hit him during the dash, he can't f or e during it.

Sure Jan.

So when he leaps over the tank with his untargetable autism, presses WQ on the ADC and they instantly die because Lichbane and his W are actually busted as fuck, what do you do?? Hmm? He doesnt need his ult to kill shit. The tanks cant peel when they're knocked up and perm slowed from body blocking.

Poke Fizz when he presses EWQ Ignite for your entire health bar with literally 0 counterplay other than to not get in range of his flash + e.

Sure jan

Pommel KnightApr 2, 20175 votes

Damn you're bronze, you aren't even being realistic.

QuickenedBladeApr 3, 20173 votes

Damn hardstuck d5 in EU 1tricking fizz. Man, I feel sorry for the poor teammates you get on their team.

A Fizz 1trick gonna talk shit about how Fizz is balanced. Top fucking kek.

E W Q dead. Zhonyas. E away. E back in. ggez freelo. I've gotten higher ranks and a higher win rate playing urgot than you can with fizz.

53% win rate for Fizz says it all. I'm right and you're wrong. Period. Inc fizz nerfs have fun being stuck in d5 when he gets nerfed. Have fun playing your other fun and interactive champions like Garen and Teemo that also have tons of counterplay.

EDIT: And you play TANK FIZZ at that. Lmao. Fucking Lmao.

Yaśuo MainApr 3, 20171 votes

EDIT: And you play TANK FIZZ at that. Lmao. Fucking Lmao

Shit, he plays Tank Fizz? That's insanely cruel for him to play Tank Fizz. Even for Fizz Mains, what a joke.

PennsApr 3, 20173 votes

Talks about being stuck in d5, meanwhile argues that Fizz 85 base damage 33% AP scaling W "is actually busted as fuck" and instakills an adc. Also argues you cant abuse one of the weakest laners in the game from range because he wins all ins :thinking: Kappa

QuickenedBladeApr 3, 20171 votes

" If the target has been marked for at least 2 seconds, the damage dealt is tripled."

press q stroke cock while untargetable press W 500+ dmg on next hit with lichbane

Q "70 (+ 55% AP) + 100% AD + On-hit effects" (with 90ad) 260 +65% AP with lichbane

His W "85 (+ 33.3% AP) + 255 (+ 100% AP)" ** 340 +133.3% AP in total**

His E "270 (+ 75% AP) 60% Slow" 6s cd

R "500 (+ 120% AP)"

his numbers and straight up broken

"weakest laner" 53% win rate

nice try, shitpost somewhere else

270% AP scaling from his basic ability combo. 700 in base damages without ult. with ult it's 390% ap scaling 1200 base damage.

PennsApr 3, 20171 votes

"So when he leaps over the tank with his untargetable autism, presses WQ on the ADC and they instantly die because Lichbane and his W are actually busted as fuck, what do you do?? " How does he stack his W mark there? And if the adc gets in his Q range late game without Fizz getting Exhausted or anything, wtf is he even doing lol.

And why exactly does laning phase decide win rate?

It Hertz When IPApr 2, 201710 votes

Fizz has counterplay..... he's just annoying these days, nothing more.

KhadaverApr 2, 20177 votes

In my silver experience, he is useless in lane and can only kill with ult unless we play braindead

DracocrashApr 2, 20176 votes

how did this get out of fresh

Only Play DariusApr 2, 20174 votes

Sound like you're salty

WyrmbladeApr 2, 20174 votes

You know riot screwed up somewhere if an assassin/lightfighter is being built almost full tank.

JedenVojakApr 2, 20172 votes

So being melee only, and having to land a slow moving skillshot ultimate to do his only job is "no counterplay"

I'm guessing there's a problem with your mouse and that's why you're not... you know... moving out of auto range or something.

Mighty MorteinApr 3, 20172 votes

Most Fizz's I run into usually have the inability to farm in lane. If you're able to play safely and farm he generally doesn't do to well. He needs to snowball to be relevant. Sure he hurts like fuck even when behind, but is not a monsterous, unbeatable, slippery fish guy thing.

Though those buffs weren't exactly necessary, I don't run into him often. I thought he fell off, even after his changes in the assassin update.

As an ad mid laner item 3155 / item 3156 and item 3814 are your best friends.

As an ap mid laner item 1057 / item 3001 will hopefully keep you alive just a bit longer.

I remember when Fizz went like, that bruiser build consisting of item 3078 / item 3025 item 3068 item 3153 and tanky, and like decimating top lane for a time.