There is not much room for skill expression because the items are so op. We should take power out of support items and shift it back into champion kits, preferably through something that has skill expression like skillshots or situational effects.
Dezell21 votesI main support and just want to say active items are really fun.
aspects18 votestheir fun right now cause their op its the truth
Stand Behind Mé7 votesLocket seems less fun lately, the shields were nerfed
[zombie-nunu-tears]
Miku Hime sama14 votesThis is TRULY ironic, considering before the patch 3.14 Support class rework, all support champs were designed to be strong WITHOUT items. Ward-bots with strong base numbers and kits. Rito since then has been actively pumping more and more gold-gen into support and like you said, creating OP items to dump that gold into (which took A LOT of effort on Rito's part.)
A well-placed bubble, a timely tornado, the perfect hook/lantern, these rarely matter anymore. Support has devolved into stacking Windspeaker effects and spamming point-click shields off CD.
MLDzXnRRR13 votesRightclickers get their power from IE and stuff. Playing support with actives takes more skill than walking back and rightclicking.
Cosmic Warper3 votesRightclickers get their power from IE and stuff. Playing support with actives takes more skill than walking back and rightclicking.
Playing janna/lulu takes more skill than vayne/draven? nice try
ShowMeTheBooty3 votesKinda weird for you to compare 2 of the easiest supports to the 2 hardest adcs, don't you think?
SpecterVonBaren13 votesBut then we just end up back to the situation where people complain about support itemization being underwhelming.
50000000000000006 votesWe could make the items empower the basic abilities, instead of adding new actives.
For example, for peel supports (mainly tanks but maybe some enchanters), there could be an item that pulls enemy champions slightly while they are affected by hard CC. Or maybe an item that increases the secondary effects of heals/shields by 50% (Janna's AD, Nami's MS, Karma's MS, etc.).
SpecterVonBaren11 votesFor the second part, Utility Scaling. I wish Riot would do that, I was hoping the Support Class update would solve that but now that they've discontinued class updates that hope is gone.
50000000000000005 votesYeah, right now they have AP scaling (or no scaling), which mean that when enchanters go for heal/shield power, they lose out on AP quite a bit. Athene's help solve that, but just straight up adding utility scaling off of a new stat seems like a much better idea imo.
Dextix LT1 votesBut why? What is wrong with actives?
Can anyone tell me what is wrong with having active items!
Have any of you ever played dota?
50000000000000002 votesActives on their own aren't bad, but when actives on different champions do the exact same thing, that's an issue. Ardent Censer is a good example of what support items should be like: empowering the champion's abilities and making them do their jobs better, not just slapping on a new spell that has nothing to do with the support's kit.
Redemption, for example. The item giving delayed heal and zoning capability was fine, and it's a cool way to make support itemization more interesting. On the other hand, as we keep adding more support itemization, adding more items like Redemption (that adds an active effect that affects all supports in the same way) means all supports start playing basically the same, except in early game when they don't have any items.
I am fine with having windows of power using active effects, but I'm not fine with all the supports building the same items and playing basically the same way.
I tried dota for a few days and quit because it was way too much work to get into a new moba with hundreds of characters and items :/
Dextix LT1 votesWrong, even with the same items supports will play differently. Hell if everyone had the same items then the only difference would be their kits! You do understand that right?
Supports DO NOT play the same way. Why all of you trying to portray these active items like the second coming of jesus? Do you realy think you can pop them in a fight and be done with it?
Every support plays differently, and with these actives it becomes more and more clear.
It is not bad if everyone builds simmilary, it is also not bad if there are a lot of actives, because none of those detract from the champion.
50000000000000002 votesSo far, the worst it has gotten is Redemption+Locket combo that was essentially mandatory for quite a while now. So that's two additional "spells."
Of course, champions don't play exactly the same, since they have 5 different abilities, including passives. What happens when you keep adding items like Locket and Redemption? Including Locket and Redemption, that's 2 out of 7 spells that's identical. At worst, that'll be 4 active items that do the same (excluding boots and sightstone), which would end up at 4 out of 9 spells that's identical across the support class, which is almost half. When that happens, it actually does start to detract from the champion, especially given that item actives often have potential to be stronger than a basic spell on average.
And that's why I think actives should be more about augmenting the base kit, instead of granting brand new spells. Having weaker actives may help emphasize the kit more, but also is unsatisfying. Emphasizing the kit over the item actives also help focus the strategic niches of different supports instead of homogenizing what the supports can do.
Dextix LT1 votesAgain, how is this a problem? Having more tools does not detract from a champion. Having same tools over the class does THE OPPOSITE! It makes the champ kits matter even more! The strategic niches still exists, BECAUSE the builds are so homogenous. I love how you people argue against yourselves.
"Champ kits do not matter since everyone runs the same items" - But that means that champ kits are the only unique thing left, meaning that the champ kit becomes the most important reason to pick a champ!
Active items DO NOT detract from a champion, they only add.
I am giving you a simple chalenge, go into a game, and use only items to support without skills, then tell me how it goes. Preferably do it with different champions if they are really the same.
None of you would survive in DOTA that is for sure.
50000000000000001 votesGiving every support a heal and a shield doesn't homogenize the roster? Are you hearing yourself?
This is pretty much the same problem that many other subclasses have and Riot has tried to solve them via class updates. Divers were all doing gapcloser + burst + some DPS afterwards, for example. They didn't want vanguards to be just jumping in and applying AoE CC, and so they changed a lot of that. Locket and Redemption do essentially the same thing by giving them all the same tool. There's no reason to pick someone with AoE heal, you've got redemption for that. There's no reason to pick someone with AoE shields, you got Locket for that.
The current state of the game addressed the strength of Locket + Redemption combo, so things got better. I'm saying, by keep adding these high impact actives that don't interact with champion kits, it will start to detract, like it did with at the height of Locket + Redemption. But if we add more actives with near-mandatory level power again, it will mean champion kits matter less and less.
Again, since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, sure, technically active items add to champion kit because it doesn't remove existing abilities. But it does decrease the proportion of power champion kits in the overall power that a champion carries. Hence why many support players feel like item slaves.
Dextix LT1 votesOkay, so, does that mean that such items as force staff and blink dagger homogenize the roster in DOTA? No, it does not.
There is a reason to pick both people who have aoe heals and shields. Want to know why? Because those items have high cooldowns and are single use in a fight.
By your logic, a support can just drop off his items in a fight and thats it. I dare you, just like everyone else in this thread, to go play support, and only use support items and not your skills. I will see how you talk then.
These things do not retract from kits because of their limitations when compared to champion kits.
Again, you even ignore my point in my comment.
"Champ kits do not matter since everyone runs the same items" - But that means that champ kits are the only unique thing left, meaning that the champ kit becomes the most important reason to pick a champ!
Do you really not realize you are arguing against yourself? If certain items are mandatory then their kits are the ONLY thing that is signficant since everything else is the same.
I repeat. Since you think that supports are only strong because of active items and tat their abilities do not matter. I dare you to play a support and use only items isntead of champ skills. Tell me how it goes.
CrimsonLotus37 votesif you simplify anything enough it seems easy
if im playing a mage im going to move my cursor and press q ... if i play adc im right clicking
BlueBilberry5 votesWell, the situation is not perfect - but at least it's better than the "you better carry Locket, support" meta which haunted support players last year. This year, there is something that approaches choice for supports. The only problem is that it's evolved to: Coin-based item (which now gives less mana) plus Ardent Censer plus something else. So one to two less sockets available for personal choice...
Sohleks6 votes"You better carry locket" support meta is still just around the corner of a heavy ardent censor nerf.
Locket is still so powerful I build it as a cheap MR item on champions like Teemo sometimes. 60 mr with a giant shield of 250-400 base (+up to 36% of your bonus health when I often get Liandries and scaling hp seals on Teemo) for your entire team for 2200g makes normal MR items look like a joke. The 30 armor is just icing on the cake.
60 mr, 300-550 hp team shield, 2200gold. 30 ar too
Means I can more quickly move onto another key item like void staff and completely rid of my evelynn problem. It's actually the best choice if I'm worried about both AP and AD at once.
Now they need a 2650 gold item to beat your 2200 gold item. I've also saved allies with it numerous times.
It's also busted as heck on Urf. I had locket on urf Syndra yesterday and the enemy AP Tryndamere asked me " why even play the game." lol. Defense statistics in this game is super dumb.
The best strat in league for years has been to tank up waveclear and be as anti gameplay as possible. Constant trifecta meta of frontline pawns and ranged hypercarries and their supports. Assassins and bruisers get cucked. Assassins get additional counterplay through their rework and bruisers still remain untouched majorly for years.
Baron Barian5 votesThe way I see it, supports who build active heavy items have double the abilities in team fighting.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votesThis board... always upvote these BS kind [zombie-brand-mindblown]
Chaos Milk Tea5 votesIf supports are good on their own then they go mid and nobody has fun.
ModKnightsKemplar5 votesProblem is, if the champs are too powerful, they just get abused in other lanes and get nerfed again. It's not that helpful to buff the support champs so much that they are more powerful than other champs.
AWildAPKalista6 votesExcept that has never TRULY happened. It occurred as a result of Rito's negligence and refusal to create a support stat. It happened as a direct cause of the 3.14 support class rework and Rito's misdecision of adding utility-ap scalings to the support class. As a matter-of-fact, every support in the game received nerfs that patch, with the lone exception of Lulu. Hence why Lulu has been the main offender of solo-lane supports, all other cases took longer to appear and haven't returned nearly as frequently as Lulu.
Also, let's not forget the hypocrisy that Rito CLAIMS to not be opposed to solo-lane supports, but at the same time guts any that appear. Players NEED to be reminded as frequently as possible of Rito's mistakes and misdoings.
SanKakU1 votesMana is a support stat. And I don't think Lulu solo is any better than Lulu support.
It looks like you want Riot to create dozens of new items that don't have AD/AP or have limited amounts of those on the items while the stat is called Supporting Power or something like that. Seems like a lot of work. Plus, then they had to do a mix of nerfing AP ratios and removing them and put in SP ratios.
AWildAPKalista4 votesMana is by NO MEANS a support stat, it's a mana-user stat, hence about 90% or more of the champions in the game. I don't even know which left field you pulled that fallacy from, but I digress.
In no way am I suggesting Rito creates brand new items, ffs this entire thread is discussing ALREADY EXISTING ITEMS THAT THIS SUGGESTION WOULD APPLY TO. Remove AP from Censor, Spellthief, Athene's ALL the support items and replace it with "SP" as you put it. There are sooo many benefits that would rise from this simple change.
Solo-lane AP champs can't abuse support items. Unless they have an "SP" scaling somewhere on their kit, they get very little benefit from buying support items and don't receive any AP to increase their damage.
"SP" items can be independently balanced around support champs without worrying about subsequently increase damage as AP does.
Support champs can be independently balanced around "SP" items without running the risk that comes with AP scaling and say, inadvertently buying shit like Luden's Echo or Lich Bane and subsequently having stronger shields and CC.
Support champs are deterred from being played solo-lane. "SP" items don't increase their damage output and AP items don't increase their utility.
Healthy solo-lane APC "supports." With their utility scaling "SP" and not AP, supports can be given usable AP scalings to function as off-meta APC characters without running the risk of "solo-lane Lulu" or "solo-lane Soraka" as they were, or the like. Mind you, supports are meant to have strong base numbers, so this would still need to remain little more than a novelty, as it was pre-3.14.
All of this would take next to NO EFFORT on Rito's part, it never would have. Simply change every applicable stat on support spells/items from saying AP to saying "SP" and job well down. Hammer out the kinks after, for the most part 90% of the game will function exactly the same as it already does, but with the potential of better balancing and reduced risk of abuse cases.
MatthewRT22 votesYeah but with this you're leaving out how i'm supposed to solo kill the enemy adc as thresh or karma without ap on mah items and a rabadons
ModKnightsKemplar3 votesI just don't think it's a mistake. Solo lane Lulu is pretty bad for game health.
I DO think a support stat would help (and no, mana is not a support stat), but good AP scalings just lead to annoying hyper-carry comps where you run three support and Kog'Maw and no one can do anything about it. There's no way to make that healthy.
Nymzo1 votesNo, they should be no support stat items.
When you start to put support stat, you will see more stuff like 
or Windspeaker, things that without them, the kits of some champion feel incomplete.
What does that mean? That means that supports will, ironically, become items dependant and it will bascially be a race to who gets the op items first (remember 
and 
?)
It would be 10 times better if supports would have interesting and interactive kit but it would need allies to work kinda like Rakan's e for a good example.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesNot if they do it right.
See, if there was a support stat, then solo lane supports actually become viable again. Follow me here for a sec.
The reason they don't work right now is that if the AP ratios on supports are good enough to be valuable to a support, then they are encouraged to abuse those ratios in solo lanes. That's why solo lane Lulu became oppressive; they increased her AP ratios and she got OP in solo lanes even though it felt good for support Lulu.
Now, if we have a support stat, we can effectively have two kinds of lulu; one lulu scales with support itemization well, and the other scales with AP. These scalings would be on the different abilities, obviously. So if you run solo lane Lulu, then you buy AP and your Q is useful, but if you're support, you don't actually buy AP. You buy this support stat instead, which scales with your shield but NOT with your Q. So Q is still a slow for support Lulu, but does much less damage. Meanwhile, solo lane Lulu has a shield, but it isn't very good.
You say this makes support Lulu dependent on items. It does. Every champ in League is dependent on items. If there's a Darius mirror match in top lane, the Darius that gets Black Cleaver first is almost certainly going to win that lane. This is no different than any other champ.
The reason that supports have been a tough spot in this game is that they CAN'T scale with items very well or they become oppressive solo laners. That's why they're so troublesome to balance. That's why their ratios are not great, and they don't need much gold to be valuable. The fix to that is to separate support scaling from damage scaling. I see that as the clearest way forward. Easy? No. But I think the reward:risk ratio is high if they do it carefully.
Nymzo1 votesNot if they do it right.
Now, if we have a support stat, we can effectively have two kinds of lulu; one lulu scales with support itemization well, and the other scales with AP. These scalings would be on the different abilities, obviously. So if you run solo lane Lulu, then you buy AP and your Q is useful, but if you're support, you don't actually buy AP. You buy this support stat instead, which scales with your shield but NOT with your Q. So Q is still a slow for support Lulu, but does much less damage. Meanwhile, solo lane Lulu has a shield, but it isn't very good.
That would be nice on paper but you forgot that 
still exist and knowing Riot, they would give the support stat to .
And we would need to introduce a ton of these items with those stats to make sure like ad or ap, you need a lot of ''sp'' to make sure your spells are effective because otherwise, solo laners could get away at building one of these items for a ''protect the Kogmaw'' comp.
You say this makes support Lulu dependent on items. It does. Every champ in League is dependent on items. If there's a Darius mirror match in top lane, the Darius that gets Black Cleaver first is almost certainly going to win that lane. This is no different than any other champ.
That's not the same thing...
Darius synergizes well with 
because his passif and his e armor reduction goes very well with the item. Sure, he will build it 100% of the time but it's still only a powerspike. Darius is FAR from being weak without BC from my little top experience, he can lane very well until he gets it.
Meanwhile, try to play any enchanters without even Windspeakers. Sure you can get away with Tlord with some but your heal or shield feel rather weak in most situation. And before enchanters never had the luxury to rush , now they do.
The reason that supports have been a tough spot in this game is that they CAN'T scale with items very well or they become oppressive solo laners. That's why they're so troublesome to balance.
No, that's not right sorry.
First of all, it's only two enchanters, these two: 
.
Why only those two? Because:
The little boost from and 
only helped them in 2 categories.
That's why their ratios are not great, and they don't need much gold to be valuable. The fix to that is to separate support scaling from damage scaling. I see that as the clearest way forward. Easy? No. But I think the reward:risk ratio is high if they do it carefully.
Oh you know... update every single enchanter to give them a nice support niche while making sure they cannot solo lane anymore and make their lanes most interactive than ''I'll just stand back in lane/poke a little bit while waiting for ganks/the moment I get my items''? Instead of risking to break even more the meta game than it already is. But that would probably ask for too much effort and ressources.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesOh you know... update every single enchanter to give them a nice support niche while making sure they cannot solo lane anymore and make their lanes most interactive than ''I'll just stand back in lane/poke a little bit while waiting for ganks/the moment I get my items''? Instead of risking to break even more the meta game than it already is.
This is a nice theory, but this is something that I don't think is really possible without forcing them to play support. If you're okay with that, then it's a fine solution. I would like to see supports be able to scale with items the way other champs do, and that requires a more complex solution than "buff base abilities and nerf scaling."
Nymzo1 votesThis is a nice theory, but this is something that I don't think is really possible without forcing them to play support. If you're okay with that, then it's a fine solution. I would like to see supports be able to scale with items the way other champs do, and that requires a more complex solution than "buff base abilities and nerf scaling."
Tbh, Riot always had a hard time balancing a champion that can be played in more than one role. Lucian, Zyra and Malz were good example (and of course the 2 enchanters). So yea I'm okay with that
Velzard of Koz4 votesOne important thing Supports do is shielding. But how do you add skill expression to that? We all know how it ends up If it's skillshot shield. One possible way would be making it reflex-dependant so that the shield is strong, but lasts short only against large nukes. But Riot seems to be very interested in ADCs being shielded for entire years because that makes sense. To this day I can't understand shields longer than 2.5 or 3 seconds.
Dorans Pants5 votes[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dhivi4rj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-08-15T21:43:46.091+0000)
One important thing Supports do is shielding. But how do you add skill expression to that? We all know how it ends up If it's skillshot shield. One possible way would be making it reflex-dependant so that the shield is strong, but lasts short only against large nukes. But Riot seems to be very interested in ADCs being shielded for entire years because that makes sense. To this day I can't understand shields longer than 2.5 or 3 seconds.
i would be quite interested if they changed the way how some shields are applied. Most shield are point and click and a only defined by their passives that get tacked on. ( lulu, morg, janna ). If they changed some into different skillshot they could fit certain roles better like: -aoe-skillshot like brand´s w for teamfights (i mean we already have redemption but u cant really miss it tbh) -long range single target like ez´s q (trades in range for reliability) -u could add a delay on it for a strong and long lasting heal/shield -u could add one thats strong but has a tiny timewindow ( like u already mentioned )
u could also add a condition to your shield for example taric can heal as long as he goes in and autoattacks or you have a skillshot that reduces the cd on your heal
all in all it won´t solve all the problems shield supports have, but it would make them more fun to play imo.
Ryrynounet4 votesOne important thing Enchanters do is shielding
FYFI, i rarely see a 
or a 
shielding me with their kit
Colgate Gator4 votesIronically, most of the time Support's abilities are some of the most impactful spells in the whole in lieu of damage scaling.
Dextix LT4 votesThen you do not play support at all, because there is a lot of skill expression. Yes, there are a lot of active items usage, but your kit is also important.
As a support main, i love current items, because they do skillcheck you and the enemy, and your kit is also there for you to use.
By your logic, when you play any other class, you are also playing a bunch of items. You dont.
There is no problem, and now support is in the best position it has ever been.
General Esdeath 4 votesI remember when I started picking up Braum again and I was like "Wow I need a lot of actives, like my full build is 
"
Dextix LT2 votesAnd that is a problem, why?
ME UNGA ME SMASH3 votesI think that's a flawed mentality. There are plenty of champions that get their power from items, not solely their kit. Saying items make supports unskillful is like saying items make any mage unskillful.
Miku Hime sama6 votesI think it depends on the specific item. If we're talking artificial scalings like Runic/Luden's Echo and Lich Bane, yes these items do lower the skill ceiling significantly. Also note that ALL of them give obscene amounts of MS, unnecessarily, which just compounds the problem further. There's a reason Runeglaive was deleted from the game, artificial numbers are toxic and difficult to balance. What does the support class thrive on? ARTIFICIAL NUMBERS. It all comes full circle.
ChaosThief3 votesRuneglaive was removed because it was too situational of a jungle item and only benefitted a select few (who would use lich bane instead if it were possible). Also, step out of the ring ezreal; you don't need to have an abuse case again.
Miku Hime sama3 votesRuneglaive was removed because EVERYONE abused it. EVERY AP jungler, EVERY AP mid-laner, you name it. The last straw was when Runeglaive Orianna got a pentakill during an official pro match. LCK or LCS or whatever. It was CHEAPER than Lich Bane, but had a STRONGER Spellblade, hence WHY off-meta picks like Ezreal reappeared in mid and hence why everyone doesn't currently abuse Lich Bane. Runeglaive was OBSCENELY powerful, just as all artificial scalings are.
CasterGilgamesh2 votesthats not going happen sadly riot gutted every support so they couldnt go to solo lanes so letting them do things without their using items is the only way they thought they would keep supports in game without buffing the kits.... as much as i hate this logic its just how it is...riot has hated us supports....
Rafatinoni2 votesPlaying support is like playing a piano right now xD
Kythers1 votes
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wow im diamond what happened
