Machete upgrade penalizes sustain junglers

Serenity Now·May 18, 2015·6 votes·1,249 views

If you play the likes of Fiddle or Nunu, you can fully clear your jungle and both rivers before going back for a buy. Often you can even stay out longer, but you're left waiting on timers if there is no gank opportunity and you don't want to counter jungle.

However, if you don't back after the first three camps of your initial clear, you're giving up extra income while you stay out because the first Machete upgrade doubles the large monster bounty from 15 to 30 gold.

I feel like this is actually stifling diversity a bit in that there are a handful of unique junglers forced into the same play pattern as other junglers.

I'm thinking the gold bounty on Machete should stack. Start it at 10 gold, and have it increase by 5 gold with every large monster kill, up to 30 gold. Now sustain junglers don't get penalized for staying out longer.

28 Comments

DisasterSolaMay 18, 20155 votes

Uhm.... This is kind of the point, ya know? When i jungle Olaf i clear from gromp to krugs (sans red buff), back, and grab my trailblazer+mobi boots. Once i have my mobi boots, i dont even have to gank; my clear times are enough that i can reach full build by 30 minutes and then just splitpush forever or be the 'assassin'.

Shroom JunkieMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Uhm.... This is kind of the point, ya know? When i jungle Olaf i clear from gromp to krugs (sans red buff), back, and grab my trailblazer+mobi boots. Once i have my mobi boots, i dont even have to gank; my clear times are enough that i can reach full build by 30 minutes and then just splitpush forever or be the 'assassin'.

But we want that extra cash. With just Machete's, we only get 15 extra gold. With an upgraded machete, we get 30 gold. 15 more extra gold. However, many junglers don't want to go back because it takes longer to go to the next jungle camp.

DisasterSolaMay 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But we want that extra cash. With just Machete's, we only get 15 extra gold. With an upgraded machete, we get 30 gold. 15 more extra gold. However, many junglers don't want to go back because it takes longer to go to the next jungle camp.

Uhm... Many junglers, while they CAN keep going, go back after their first clear or partial clear because if they dont, its usually a waste of time to not go back for your jungle item.

Even if you do have good ganks withotu your smite, the smite makes your ganks much better.

Shroom JunkieMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Uhm... Many junglers, while they CAN keep going, go back after their first clear or partial clear because if they dont, its usually a waste of time to not go back for your jungle item.

Even if you do have good ganks withotu your smite, the smite makes your ganks much better.

But what if you don't want to gank? What if you want to just keep jungling for awhile, but not have to go back to get your crap and waste what time that could mean an invade and jungle steals. And don't say it doesn't happen that soon, just this morning I was a Sion jungle and after I backed, I came to my blue and found Nidalee(enemy jungler) trying to steal it.

FooDangMay 18, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Once i have my mobi boots,** i dont even have to gank**

...

DisasterSolaMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

...

What? I dont. My clear times are fast enough, at least as olaf, that i dont HAVE to gank to stay gold sufficient. Because, ya know, when S5 changes began junglers were CONSTANTLY ~3 to 5 levels behind and were on support welfare gold despite trick2g power farming unless they ganked 24/7 and got kills.

Of course, that doesnt mean i dont gank at all. Of course i do, if the situation presents itself. But ganking isnt high on my list of priorities unless its mostly a sure kill. It aint my job to win your lane for you, and every second i waste waiting for the lane to get into gank position is another ten gold lost.

Jungle Lux GodMay 18, 20156 votes

I think the reason he was highlighting not having to gank after getting Mobility Boots is because generally, a jungler picks up Mobility Boots for the purpose of ganking, not for the purpose of farming.

Generally, Mobility Boots is not really a good option for powerfarming the jungle because the movement speed boost on Mobis is never up due to taking camps, but I won't argue about it if it works for you.

djjomonMay 18, 20153 votes

If you're only ganking for kills, you have the wrong attitude about jungling. Ganking to relieve pressure on a lane is a successful gank. 10 gold lost a second easing pressure, versus allowing a lane to fall behind, and eventually losing a global objective.

It's not your job to win a lane, it's your job to win the map.

SimplicateMay 18, 20151 votes

ROFL Can't stop laughing xD. But if it works for you then go for it

Serenity NowMay 18, 20151 votes

How is it the point?

Many junglers need to back after the first few camps, and the upgrade is priced accordingly. I'm pointing out that there are a handful of junglers who can keep on going, but must back as well because they lose out on gold income if they don't. So we have an item unnecessarily dictating play. The change I proposed now gives a choice without penalizing gold income.

Jungle Lux GodMay 18, 20153 votes

The advantage of sustain junglers is that they can farm a lot more on the first clear and be more useful in the broad scope of the game before making their first back, then be able to consistently impact the map without having to back too often after the first back due to sustain.

There's also the advantage of getting a little bit more experience out of the first clear by being able to do every single camp before actually going back to base, although this experience advantage is not great and likely won't really help too much.

Serenity NowMay 18, 20151 votes

Correct. If diversity is the goal, sustain junglers shouldn't be forced into the same play pattern as other junglers.

The minor Machete tweak I suggested makes gold income consistent whether you back early or not.

Jungle Lux GodMay 19, 20151 votes

They aren't force to. Doing a full clear of the jungle before the first back offers an advantage of being able to go back with more gold to buy more items to apply more pressure on the map. This includes the ability to buy boots between the first and second backs, which is a MASSIVE advantage for any jungler.

This also doesn't include the fact that you are able to get two extra camps out of your clears later on, so the only gold you miss out on is the gold from taking one of the buffs unless you take a Scuttler, where you also lose gold from that.

Something I'm afraid of is that sustain junglers would be too dominant with this kind of strategy, although with as much as I play the jungle I can't say I'm familiar with every single jungle strategy available.

ImHerVoiceMay 18, 20152 votes

the timers are shit. The exp rewards are wards. Its shit. No one likes s5 jungle. We just like the s5 jungle items so we grin and bite the bullet. It's only gotten worse over the years. Riot has gutted the jungle rewards for us every year. season 1/2 were the high point of junglers. Diversity for every type of jungle. Above average clear speed. Gankers Farmers. AP junglers AP bruisers Mage junglers. Assassins. Then riot made season 3 items and all that went away and now we're stuck with assassin or tank junglers. Nothing else is really played because its not good enough. Not even meta would support a karthus jungle or a fiddle jungle that much anymore simply because the game has evolved to support only tank/assassin junglers.

So has riots design. It has crowded and bottlenecked the diversity. Riot Knows nothing of game design. In the long run they have bottlenecked their game with broken champions and nerfs to everything they "thought" needed changing at the time.

And this is twofold because the community wanted change but then didn't want change so riot makes changes then is surprised when its not enough so they keep changing for the sake of change. In turn the change has altered the game and there is no return from whence we came. We push forward and shape the game from here. We are reaping what we sowed so long ago. And like it or not, we will continue to reap what we sowed. We can make the best of a bad situation and go for the lesser of 2 evils by trying to make more diversity as riot has stated but the fact is trying isn't going to do anything until the timers are at 30-45 second spawn times for the farmers to be viable and then doing moderate damage so the weaker clearing champions don't get destroyed by having hardly any percentage damage /single target or none at all and high cooldowns/mana costs.

The problem at this point is there are so many broken tanks/assassins in the game that saturate the jungle that making the jungle weak only buffs these champions to have even more godly clear and even more gold when they pick up kills.

The champion design has become "percentage damage- gap closers- hard cc- some other useful utility/aoe damage spell/point and click/auto reset" And champions without this design fall between the cracks in the design. Riot has been trying to make good champions but the problem started way back around the time ahri released. With champions like ahri who just have godly scaling and base stats from the get go. So balancing them will never be possible because you either gut their stats and make them feel like shit as an assassin/tank or you gut their utility and make them feel like shit in a teamfight when they're easily picked off by the next great champion with above posted "typical kit"

It is a vicious cycle and the dogs eating the lesser dogs only has become worse and worse with more and more champions having the same type of kit design.

Nameless VoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

Who are these "OP assassin junglers" that you see constantly? Assassin junglers are rather rare.

You see plenty of tank junglers (Sejuani, Gragas, etc.), and when not those, the fighter junglers (Lee Sin, Rek'sai, etc.) There's the occasional Shaco or Evelynn, but they're rare.

3TWarriorMay 18, 20151 votes

zed, shaco, nidalee(rare now even though she was DESIGNED for it), jax (rare but awesome), lee sin is pretty assassin with high mobility kit and damage), fiddlesticks (though he's a mage assassin), i'm going to stop now but there are plenty of assassin junglers, like kat and akali

Nameless VoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

Zed almost never jungles (and is usually banned anyway); Shaco is a really high-risk pick and far from OP; Nidalee isn't played any more since Cinderhulk; Jax is a fighter (with elements of melee carry); Lee Sin is a fighter (though with some assassin elements); Fiddlesticks is a sustained-damage mage and absolutely nothing like an assassin... Kat can't jungle; Akali can but it's not good and no one does it.

Again, that leaves us with a very rare Shaco and Nidalee.

FourVsFiveMay 18, 20152 votes

fiddle and nunu do not need to spend gold on potions as much as non sustainers, so really u not losing gold u gaining gold.

Mandang0May 18, 20151 votes

whoosh

RouterSmiterMay 18, 20151 votes

item 3713

ImHerVoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

this item is a noob trap, don't buy it. or poachers.

DisasterSolaMay 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

this item is a noob trap, don't buy it. or poachers.

Trailblazer is good for farming champions or if youre a champion with weak ganks (whose purpose is to force enemies to leave lane, rather than get a kill)

ImHerVoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

15+ minutes in you then become some guy with purple smite who's not as useful in a 5v5 compared to blue/red where you have a meaningful spell that can win a fight if used right

DisasterSolaMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

15+ minutes in you then become some guy with purple smite who's not as useful in a 5v5 compared to blue/red where you have a meaningful spell that can win a fight if used right

Generally speaking, you spend the extra 240 gold and swap into a debuff smite or, when the teamfight phase rolls around, you sell your trailblazer item and exchange it for a different type...

ImHerVoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

do you cant. once you select tier 3 thats it. I wish it wasn't true, but thats it.

And most people upgrade their jungle item first before anything else. The only reason you'd skip it is maybe when I play shaco and somehow have the gold to rusha tiamat first. Or some kind of tank that somehow got fed and can buy a giants belt right away But other than that I've always finished it first.

Jungle Lux GodMay 18, 20153 votes

You are even less useful if you have a blue/red smite who's down 30 cs with no assists or kills because he couldn't farm his jungle efficiently and/or got killed by invades.

Challenging and Chilling Smites are both really good in late game teamfights, but Blasting Smite has its place for champions that need more farming power in the early-mid game.

Jungle Lux GodMay 18, 20151 votes

Ranger's Trailblazer is an amazing item.

Champions that need extra sustain and/or clear speed in order to farm the jungle at all can use this very well.

This includes junglers that don't normally have the capabilities to clear the jungle.

I recently tried a game on jungle Brand, and this item was the only reason I was able to farm the jungle with any reasonable amount of health or mana at the end of my clears, and Brand isn't the only jungler that would need the extra sustain or clear speed.