@Morello: What is the long term vision for Lulu?

Ghiefelstein··10 votes·1,956 views

Lulu’s place in the game has changed since she showed up in solo lanes, but Riot never said what direction they want to take her. Is she a poking support? A utility mid? A lane bully top? All of those options? Whatever you change about Lulu, it would surprise and disappoint a lot of players. At least inform us about your vision for her. Talk to your players and let them know what to expect.

To start the discussion I would like to give my own vision of what Lulu should be. I will try to back up my arguments with general design values or things Riot has said in the past. This how I would describe Lulu in her current state:

This champion uses targeted nukes to harass and bully opponents. Massive slows, speed boosts and a life saving ultimate give a very safe lane, making it difficult to counterattack or gank succesfully. Later in the game this champion has less damage than other mages, but makes up for it in utility. The ultimate keeps allies from dying if a speed boost is not enough. Enemies get kited while they are slowed. Meanwhile this champion still does respectable AOE magic damage.

This place in the game is problematic for a couple of reasons:

  • Champion diversity: Being a lane bully with strong disengage and safety shuts down a lot of diversity. A popular Lulu invalidates a lot of champion picks.

  • Uniqueness: The description above might as well be for Zilean. Doing the same thing as another champion is bad by itself, but even more if it is a problematic champion like Zilean.

  • Lore: Lulu is a yordle with a broad imagination who did not quite fit in. She wants to share her whimsical powers with others. But in game she is a bully who uses her abilities primarily on herself. You might as well rename her E to Nuke, Pix! The gameplay does not fit her personality and story anymore. Champion identities should remain consistent regardless of where you encounter them.

Now what would be a better identity for Lulu? For what healthy aspects should players pick her? This is my answer:

Lulu is at her best when helping high damage allies. She can greatly increase their effectiveness while disrupting the enemy team. She can offer speed, survivability and damage to various teammates. Lulu can knock-up and slow multiple enemies, but is particularly strong against assassins. The key to mastery with Lulu is adaptability. Her abilities have various use cases and can be used on different targets. The best choice depends on the situation. Adaptation to different situations separates the good from the great Lulu players.

I don’t think Riot shares the same vision, because their changes since patch 4.5 went in the opposite direction. For example:

  • Adaptability: One way Lulu could adapt to situations was with her flexible skill order. But after nerfs to later levels of E and early levels of W, there is only one viable option left: Q>W>E. Why can’t support Lulu max her shield in difficult lanes? Why can’t W be a one point wonder if you use it primarily for the speed boost? Reward players for adapting their playstyle.

  • Meaningful choices: Offensive/defensive use was done perfectly for W and R. You can make a meaningful choice when deciding how to use them. But E has better base values and scaling on the shield in all cases, on top of the added pix damage. Offensive E used to have a 6 second reveal and the option to hit two Q’s. Removing that made the choice between offensive and defensive E almost meaningless.

  • Utility ratios: I rarely feel good about building AP on support Lulu. Her only utility ratio is on half of her W. The rest just increases numbers on her abilities. Mage Lulu has access to magic pen, offensive masteries and Deathcap. When AP scaling is balanced on mage Lulu, it will be lackluster for support Lulu. Ideally, you would buy AP on a support to get better at your core job: helping your team. That is missing here in my opinion.

Patch 4.13 already mentioned that Riot thinks Lulu is not in the best situation right now. “As an aside, we know this isn't a great situation where we keep indirectly reducing support Lulu's power to maintain her viability as a mage, so this is something we'll have to really consider for the future.” I hope Riot took the time to discuss that future for Lulu. Players deserve to know what your vision is.

"Let's put on our thinking caps! Hmm... hmmhmm, hmmhmm... Ah, I got it!" Lulu

11 Comments

YGW Caspie3 votes

God I love Lulu!! <3 and since my team is never on to do ranked 5s I've been trying my best to share insight and have discussions on these beta forums.

So let's talk Lulu.

Adaptability: One way Lulu could adapt to situations was with her flexible skill order. But after nerfs to later levels of E and early levels of W, there is only one viable option left: Q>W>E. Why can’t support Lulu max her shield in difficult lanes? Why can’t W be a one point wonder if you use it primarily for the speed boost? Reward players for adapting their playstyle.

I've always maxed Q>W>E even before the nerfs because I've always preferred the utility of a longer polymorph over the added strength to a shield, but I do agree that was my preference and to increase the disparity between Q over E only harms adaptability. I used to use E for the one point wonder of a vision reveal and I still do, but you can see the differences in our play styles where as now that difference doesn't really exist.

Meaningful choices: Offensive/defensive use was done perfectly for W and R. You can make a meaningful choice when deciding how to use them. But E has better base values and scaling on the shield in all cases, on top of the added pix damage. Offensive E used to have a 6 second reveal and the option to hit two Q’s. Removing that made the choice between offensive and defensive E almost meaningless.

The option to hit two Q's was a huge bully mechanic for solo lane Lulu but to basically take it away makes me really sad especially since in my opinion it was meant to exist. The better option I feel would've been to add 2 seconds to her Q and keep the 6 second reveal. This option means you still can't combo early without CDR.

Currently Lulu's Q cooldown is 7 seconds and E is a 4 second reveal, and let's say you need a 1 second window to aim Q. In order for this to happen you would need 40% CDR which puts your Q on a 4.2 second cooldown and then you would have to hit them with Q wait one second then cast E this would give you a little less than a second to aim your 2nd Q before E fades.

If Lulu's Q was 9 seconds and E was a 6 second reveal with that same 1 second window to aim Q you would need only 20% CDR and you would be able to Q, pause for a second and E, this gives you the same window as the current Lulu with 40% CDR and at 40% CDR your Q would be 5.4 seconds. That added 2 seconds on her Q also hurts her solo lane more than her support and it opens up the option of a different skill order for support where E might be more beneficial.

Utility ratios: I rarely feel good about building AP on support Lulu. Her only utility ratio is on half of her W. The rest just increases numbers on her abilities. Mage Lulu has access to magic pen, offensive masteries and Deathcap. When AP scaling is balanced on mage Lulu, it will be lackluster for support Lulu. Ideally, you would buy AP on a support to get better at your core job: helping your team. That is missing here in my opinion.

Utility scaling I've stated again and again is a failure for supports, it was meant to help supports but all it does is reward supports for going to a solo lane. It will never be balanced and should be removed completely on every champion. If they want to add utility it can be done through support items. Unless they want to add utility scaling to every single utility spell on every champion and then balance around that.

I too would love to know Morello's thoughts on Lulu but I'm starting to think I'll have to bake Lulu cupcakes with pictures to lure them out... that's starting to sound like a good idea actually.

Ghiefelstein3 votes

You better start baking those cupcakes ;).

In all seriousness, Riot's decision to let Lulu be a solo laner affected a lot of players. They should at least have the decency to communicate about her. I really want to believe that Riot commits to giving Lulu a healthy place in the game. I believed them when they said support Lulu would get analysis after patch 4.5. Yes, they only told the results after players begged them for it, but they gave some sort of vision.

Support Lulu would probably get compensation if they nerfed her again. Then patch 4.13 came with "we know this isn't a great situation where we keep indirectly reducing support Lulu's power to maintain her viability as a mage, so this is something we'll have to really consider for the future.” Followed by complete silence. There could be a couple of reasons for that:

  • They think Lulu is fine now. The messaging about support Lulu was only to keep us busy.
  • They are still discussing what to do with Lulu. Ask your players for feedback! At least give us the illusion that you are listening.
  • Lulu needs changes, but there are more pressing matters right now. At least give us the general direction. I think Lulu players had enough surprises this season.

I am afraid that it simply became too difficult to keep both mage and support Lulu viable, since their power is so connected. But that is no reason to just let it be and say nothing about her. Riot please?

Lwnt1 votes

This message should be to stattik he is the one who did all the nerfing to lulu after season 4 started, with no buff compensation to support lulu.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

The way I understand it is that Statikk is one of the people on the balance team. His job is to keep Lulu balanced. On the short term he did just that, at the cost of nerfing support Lulu. Buff compensation for support Lulu is not that easy, so I don't blame Statikk.

Now Morello is responsible for the long term big picture. Things like the decision to let Lulu become a solo laner or utility scaling on supports. He is used to being accused of lacking communication or destroying champion identities. If anyone can adress the current situation for Lulu, it is Morello.

Soarent1 votes

If they wanted to destroy lulu top I honestly don't understand why they didn't increase the movement speed on her w but made it that it cant be used on herself. Instead of nerfing her to hell. -word Lulu

YGW Caspie2 votes

Probably because lane versatility isn't a bad thing when balanced. Just because Lulu can go top lane doesn't mean she needs to be nerfed out of top lane she just needs to be better balanced so she doesn't bully every lane. They kind of accomplished this with the nerfs, but the way they did it nerfed her in the support role as well which wasn't needed because as a support she was fairly balanced. Also removing the ability to speed herself up hurts her as a support just as much.

ratcharmer1 votes

I think the best suggestion I've heard for cutting Top Lulu down to size and maybe bringing support Lulu back was to change the effect of "Help, Pix!" when cast on an enemy. Turn it from a one-target nuke with no counterplay into something thats clearly stronger when used in coordination with an ally.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

I couldn't agree more! For people interested, here are some links to relevant discussions: A change to Lulu!'s E to promote fun for everyone December 2013 How to fix Lulu May 2014 Give Lulu a new offensive E September 2014 I wonder what Riot thinks about this subject.

Lwnt1 votes

I believe one of the thing they want to do with lulu is change her W. Where they want to put resistance reduction on polymorph. It will be the same as zantana ult on infinite crisis. With this change they said they want Lulu up close to do some damage. I say that is better.

I hear a lot of people saying that they should remove the E+Q combo on an enemy. As a support lulu player I used that technique to let my ADC get the Kill if they are behind me and my enemy is front of me. In this situation, on the enemy I would E+ Q + W + Exhaust (when w done) + ult for the knock up and slow down (Only if my adc didnt get the kill on the enemy yet). As you can see that E+Q combo is a great way to start my cc combo for an enemy running away and my ADC is to slow to catch up. If they are going to remove it they need to compensate by making the range of Q longer and the speed of it faster and still be shot from ALLY or minions.

Also, If they are going to remove the E+Q combo on an enemy they need to do something with E on an enemy or else people will just E an Ally all the time. Think about it, E an enemy will just give a small damage and a 4 second vision on an enemy, which is only useful on stealth champion like twitch, evelyne and Akali. Leaving not many benefit to E an enemy. I read this idea from another post make E a vision CC: (Something like graves E skill smokes screen)

Graves skill: Graves fires a smoke canister at the target area, dealing magic damage upon landing and creating a 250-radius cloud of smoke for 4 seconds Enemies inside the smoke cloud will be slowed and will have their vision reduced to 675-range.

Lulu skill will maybe be like this: Lulu will help pix an enemy which allow pix to follow and grant vision for 4 or 6 seconds (whatever number to make it balance) and also put a spell on them making them have vision reduced to 500 range (whatever number is balance) for the first 2 or 3 seconds of the spell (whatever number to make it balance).

With this people will actually think do I want to reduce my enemy vision or shield my ally?

A2ZOMG1 votes

Here's the real reason you can't have Lulu a successful support and solo laner at the same time. Waveclear.

Ranged supports that waveclear very reliably are bad for the game. It encourages degenerative and uninteractive laning.

Gut the waveclear on Lulu's Q, BAM, she's a balanceable champion.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Ranged supports that waveclear very reliably are bad for the game.

Almost every support has a way to defend towers. You don't want to get locked down or displaced under a tower by Leona, Thresh, Blitzcrank, Morgana, Zyra, Alistar, Nami or Janna. Braum can shield in front of towers and Annie has burst. Karma and Lulu have waveclear.

If you remove Lulu's waveclear, she can sit on the bench with Taric Sona Soraka . That is what happens when you suck at defending towers. And this is exactly why I want to know Riot's vision. If they are going to remove Lulu's waveclear, I can go look for another favorite champion.

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