what if we just made something like grasp into garens passive?

Critmaster Garen··10 votes·6,813 views

the champion has two glaring issues at the moment that prevent him from being able to take extended fights against a lot of carries. basically if garen cant kill his opponent within 4 seconds of one ability rotation it very often means he will automatically lose the fight afterwards.

like have a support throw a shield on his target to absorb his spin, and hes pretty much boned even if he gets on top of the enemy villain.

then there are champions that hes simply incabable of fighting at all. villain or not.

1.) he doesnt have any form of in combat sustain available to him. at least not as accessable as lifesteal is to most fighters, or their inbuilt sustain like darius q.

2.) he has massive cooldown windows, when his spin is on cd, where he basically cant do shit and loses trades against most other carries.

so what if we did this?

  • increase his base health regeneration a bit to slightly compensate for the loss of out of combat sustain in hard matchups. hed probably get shit on by champions with some form of ranged poke, and he cant reach in melee otherwise.

  • his passive is changed to generate up to like 5 stacks of perseverence every x seconds (maybe around 4 seconds). perseverence adds 2% of his max health in physical damage to his auto attacks and heals him for the same amount. stacks generate faster at lvl 11 (about every 2 seconds).

villainy turns the damage portion into true damage and replaces his current 1% max health true damage against villains on his auto attacks.

the procs trigger on minions, monsters and enemy champions, so he still has some sort of sustain in lanes hes forced to play passive and isnt entirely dicked over. (like a ranged matchup where he has to farm under turret).

his resource bar could be used as a stack counter or some shit, similar to how they do it with annies.

overall, this is basically aimed at making the passive more versatile to be effectively used in and out of combat, while the ammo system still puts a global limiter on the sustain.

dependent on how this works out, they could even do more interesting stuff. like outplaying an opponent with his w, or executing the villain generates bonus stacks. being out of combat regenerates stacks faster... etc. to still somewhat emulate his current passive. just spitballing.

27 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

thinking about it, the only problem id see is how you would decide to prepare the procs to fight your lane opponent, when theyre always consumed by csing. this concept might need some tweaks, so you can always make it an active choice how youd use the procs.

maybe against minions it would be a much smaller flat heal, but not consume a stack when the minion dies?

Danyoja2 votes

Its a good idea, Garen is the only Juggernaut without in-combat sustain, despite how good his current passive is once you hit 11, I never felt backing off to suck your thumb when hurt was a very Garen thing to do.

Definitely have to make the heal smaller against minions, but it'd probably have to consume the stacks or he'd be too good in a wave. Although the ability would have the same issue Garen has with grasp in that it forces him to attack minions instead of last hitting because he has no good way to keep it proc'd. Although I think what you're saying is that he could hold on to this one and that's a good idea, so I think it would be good but might make his laning still hell against certain picks, but that's a given.

Alternates, how about having a higher cap of perseverance (gets lower as the game goes on and at max stacks his next ability does something special and taking/dealing increases your stack gain. So you can have perseverance W heal him over time or something, Q marks someone with villainy for the duration of the silence, E has spell vamp, R yells Justice! globally on successful smiting.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Its a good idea, Garen is the only Juggernaut without in-combat sustain, despite how good his current passive is once you hit 11, I never felt backing off to suck your thumb when hurt was a very Garen thing to do.

Definitely have to make the heal smaller against minions, but it'd probably have to consume the stacks or he'd be too good in a wave. Although the ability would have the same issue Garen has with grasp in that it forces him to attack minions instead of last hitting because he has no good way to keep it proc'd. Although I think what you're saying is that he could hold on to this one and that's a good idea, so I think it would be good but might make his laning still hell against certain picks, but that's a given.

Alternates, how about having a higher cap of perseverance (gets lower as the game goes on and at max stacks his next ability does something special and taking/dealing increases your stack gain. So you can have perseverance W heal him over time or something, Q marks someone with villainy for the duration of the silence, E has spell vamp, R yells Justice! globally on successful smiting.

my thought was actually that he wouldnt have to activate it, but the procs just passively generate every 4 seconds up to like 5 stacks on an ammo system.

the idea is that it allows you to stay in the fight and have a couple of empowered auto attacks to work with, after you blew your spin, so you can still deal moderate damage and stay alive until the spin is back up.

against minions they could do something like with irelia. the heal is much smaller and flat (like 6 health early game), but doesnt consume the stacks when you kill the minion. so if you dont suck at csing and have to play under your turret, you still have some measure of sustain.

y0r1ck1 votes

I feel like your alternatives are nice, but a champion with too much flexibility isn't healthy. Besides garen should be as simple as possible while still viable. If that's what it takes for garen to be viable, so be it. But I think there are simpler ways to spice up his passive.

y0r1ck1 votes

Maybe you could gain a stack for every champion you hit with your spin. This way you could hide in a bush, auto q spin auto for nice damage and it'll make the heal more useful since it comes in the middle of combat instead of the start.

Salson2 votes

This would be a great change, I remember having a similar one a while back.

Think it went something like: -Instead of HP% deal damage equal to 50% of Armor+MR, to differentiate from Grasp -Minions only proc it at 5s, champs on 3s -Decent scaling into mid/late game, 4/7/10% -Reduces cooldown of W by 5s, prolonging the fight and adding another potential application of the passive

However, the real reason it would be good is balance across multiple tiers of play. He can only really utilize his current passive if the enemy Jungler doesn't know what he's doing.

egOrhythm2 votes

I'm confused.

There's been so many Garen balance posts on the forums lately. Since when do we give a shit about Garen? He's such a boring and uninteresting character.

Giant meathead with pauldrons that make WoW go "dude, tone it down"? Check. Spin to win mechanic that's cliched as hell for guy with giant sword? Check. Easy as balls to understand kit that rewards running headfirst at an enemy, damn the consequences? Check.

Fuck buffing Garen. Rework him into an actually interesting and interactive champion.

DarwinTheory4 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused.

There's been so many Garen balance posts on the forums lately. Since when do we give a shit about Garen? He's such a boring and uninteresting character.

Giant meathead with pauldrons that make WoW go "dude, tone it down"? Check. Spin to win mechanic that's cliched as hell for guy with giant sword? Check. Easy as balls to understand kit that rewards running headfirst at an enemy, damn the consequences? Check.

Fuck buffing Garen. Rework him into an actually interesting and interactive champion.

Shut up, you're clueless.

Garens very interesting and highly unique. His spin is a cliche and is often cited as symbolism for his 'ease'. Strange then almost all high elo garen mains max Q first....almost as if there's a depth to him low elo players aren't aware of.

y0r1ck2 votes

I don't have any problem with making garen's passive more interactive. The thing I have a problem with is your second reason. Garen has a relatively small cooldown window compared to the juggernaut, yorick. When he doesn't have graves up he's as useful as garen without spin. The difference is that yorick takes much longer to get his graves. What's the CD on his spin? 10 seconds? 15? That feels bad but it could be worse and I don't think it's one of garen's biggest problems. It does keep him from taking extended fights, but garen was never about that. His play style used to be a repeating trade/heal pattern.

That said, I like the idea that you have (I'm assuming passive stacks are consumed when you auto). It adds some sweet synergy with his q, and adds a lot of skill expression. Obviously numbers can be tweaked for balance, but I think the idea has potential to make garen less pubstomp and more fun. The biggest problem I see with this, is that the heal comes when you first start fighting, rather than at the end or in the middle. A heal at the start of a fight is inherently less useful. Though it could work.

My favorite way to give garen an easier time in LOL is to give him +5 move speed. Makes it easier to orbwalk after your spin ends, and easier to disengage to proc passive asap. In general makes it easier to use your entire kit. To me this feels a little bit like a bandaid, but it'll help good garens a lot and won't do too much for the bad ones while keeping his kit.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I don't have any problem with making garen's passive more interactive. The thing I have a problem with is your second reason. Garen has a relatively small cooldown window compared to the juggernaut, yorick. When he doesn't have graves up he's as useful as garen without spin. The difference is that yorick takes much longer to get his graves. What's the CD on his spin? 10 seconds? 15? That feels bad but it could be worse and I don't think it's one of garen's biggest problems. It does keep him from taking extended fights, but garen was never about that. His play style used to be a repeating trade/heal pattern.

yorick is built around auto attacks and still deals a lot of consistent damage with sheen procs off his q every 3 seconds with cdr, even when he doesnt have ghouls around. he also gains in combat sustain off the ability, and works well with items like item 3748

garens q is on the same cooldown as his spin, and hes not built around auto attacks. this means even compared to yorick, garen is much weaker during his cooldown windows.

this is really the main issue. he sucks at dealing sustained damage, and the lack of in combat sustain means that he has trouble staying in fights.

DarwinTheory3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deAr8iW0,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-25T11:46:37.120+0000)

yorick is built around auto attacks and still deals a lot of consistent damage with sheen procs off his q every 3 seconds with cdr, even when he doesnt have ghouls around. he also gains in combat sustain off the ability, and works well with items like item 3748

garens q is on the same cooldown as his spin, and hes not built around auto attacks. this means even compared to yorick, garen is much weaker during his cooldown windows.

this is really the main issue. he sucks at dealing sustained damage, and the lack of in combat sustain means that he has trouble staying in fights.

I'd happily take more tankiness over sustained damage. Bursting people was never his thing imo. It's saddening when I play against top laners with equal or greater health than me that aren't even classed as tanky. It really screws my early game.

Building up your W resistances in this high burst meta is silly. Revoking that juggernaut 'buff' back to a flat bonus on first point would make a decent first step I think and make people think twice to committing against Garen early.

That juggernaut rework really f*cked my favourite demacian.....sigh

Marothennan2 votes

Oooooooooor they could give him a VGU

We Are Venom1 votes

I have an idea for a new Garen passive. It's exactly the same as his current passive except it only works IN combat.

Danjeng2 votes

That's actually terrifying.

Melledoneus5 votes

So... DrMundo?

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

So... DrMundo?

mundos passive works in and out of combat.

Melledoneus2 votes

So... a Volibear passive with no limit or threshold?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

So... a Volibear passive with no limit or threshold?

yea, that would be weird. thats why i mentioned the ammo system for basically up to 5 grasp procs.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=We Are Venom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deAr8iW0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-25T00:35:53.166+0000)

I have an idea for a new Garen passive. It's exactly the same as his current passive except it only works IN combat.

that wont work. because hed get absolutely shit on by any and every form of ranged poke in lane.

as long as he has no answer to poke spam, he needs some sort of passive sustain out of combat with enemy champions to not get dicked on.

OatheSworn1 votes

I'd rather that Garen received a new mechanic. He's pretty boring at the moment with a set combo Q>E then W if needed for damage reduction/tenacity and R for execute.

DarwinTheory1 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather that Garen received a new mechanic. He's pretty boring at the moment with a set combo Q>E then W if needed for damage reduction/tenacity and R for execute.

Garen mains don't want a new mechanic!!!!!!!!

OatheSworn1 votes

{quoted}

Garen mains don't want a new mechanic!!!!!!!!

Not trying to garbage on you champion but he is pretty braindead atm with lots of people calling him the "easiest champion to play" and the likes.

Sasogwa1 votes

What would you think of a bonus attack speed at the end of his E so he doesn't feel so bad after cleaving his enemy armor with E + BC and then just doing meh autoattacks?

Something like 15/17.5/20/22.5/25% bonus attack speed at the end of his E for like 3 or 4 seconds? Not a decent enough steroid to make attack speed synergies remotely good on him, but a small bonus to not make him feel bad?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

What would you think of a bonus attack speed at the end of his E so he doesn't feel so bad after cleaving his enemy armor with E + BC and then just doing meh autoattacks?

Something like 15/17.5/20/22.5/25% bonus attack speed at the end of his E for like 3 or 4 seconds? Not a decent enough steroid to make attack speed synergies remotely good on him, but a small bonus to not make him feel bad?

its basically what i used to do with the old ghostblade, when it still had crit, and gave 40% attack speed in addition to the movement speed, for 6 seconds on the active.

go in with q, and spin, hit ghostblade to turn into a melee carry. by the time the active ran out, q and spin were available again. good times. this really gave him the means to deal sustained damage.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deAr8iW0,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-04-25T12:31:56.170+0000)

its basically what i used to do with the old ghostblade, when it still had crit, and gave 40% attack speed in addition to the movement speed, for 6 seconds on the active.

go in with q, and spin, hit ghostblade to turn into a melee carry. by the time the active ran out, q and spin were available again. good times. this really gave him the means to deal sustained damage.

M'yeah I think giving him means to have some sustained damage between his major cooldowns (mostly E) would be more interesting and fair than the straight damage buffs on PBE... which are admittedly nice but maybe less interesting. Feels like in the changes Riot make they want to enhance a "short trading" pattern where your W has insane %reduction for a little while, your Q deals a lot, but your E is meh, and the fact E cleaves at the end of judgement is kind of irrelevant since you no longer have sustained damage after E

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

M'yeah I think giving him means to have some sustained damage between his major cooldowns (mostly E) would be more interesting and fair than the straight damage buffs on PBE... which are admittedly nice but maybe less interesting. Feels like in the changes Riot make they want to enhance a "short trading" pattern where your W has insane %reduction for a little while, your Q deals a lot, but your E is meh, and the fact E cleaves at the end of judgement is kind of irrelevant since you no longer have sustained damage after E

if they want to do that, and make him basically a mix of juggernaut and skirmisher who goes for repeated short trades, id be fine with that.

but they would have to really commit to the idea and give him more ways to deal with his own cooldown windows and back off out of a fight.

i had this idea, that they could allow him to leap over thin walls some time during his q. basically how Sion can leap thin walls during the last stretch of his ult, or how Riven can jump certain walls on her third q.

this wouldnt make him directly more mobile, but it would give him more ways to enter and exit fights from different angles. like he could get over the walls at the back of baron and dragon pit, and some of the thin river walls.

it would give him some means to back out of a fight in certain areas around the map, to wait for his cooldowns, and then let his passive run for a couple ticks before he gets back into the fight.

he would also not get screwed as much by an allied JarvanIV landing a really good ult, and at the same time blocking his garen out of the fight. etc.

i mean something like this could work instead of giving him more sustained damage and in combat sustain. but right now he feels like hes stuck in a limbo of a champion who doesnt want to take extended fights, but cant really disengage a fight once he commits.

DarwinTheory1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deAr8iW0,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-04-25T12:31:56.170+0000)

its basically what i used to do with the old ghostblade, when it still had crit, and gave 40% attack speed in addition to the movement speed, for 6 seconds on the active.

go in with q, and spin, hit ghostblade to turn into a melee carry. by the time the active ran out, q and spin were available again. good times. this really gave him the means to deal sustained damage.

I'm not keen on this tbh because most champs have some form of cc to keep that combat sustained, Garen doesn't. It would make any AS increase irrelevant I suspect.

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