Boards›Gameplay

Shaco's win rate is continuing to climb after the nerfs. Please stop overbuffing champions.

Yenn··52 votes·16,023 views

Sit down and look at the patch notes for the past couple of months.

The exact same thing happens every other patch: a champion is very obviously over-buffed in one patch, then the next patch has something along the lines of 'oops, we totally overshot with the changes! ecks dee' and then the next patch follows up with 'haha, guess that little tap we gave them wasn't enough, here's another nerf!' and maybe, just maybe, they've been nerfed to a reasonable position.

This is happening with Shaco right now. He was very obviously buffed too much, and then after weeks of banning him, we finally get a nerf: box duration reduced to 40 seconds! Which is completely useless and has virtually no impact, because it doesn't do anything to address the main issue of how incredibly safe his assassinations are, with him only being visible for ~3 seconds at a time on top of having CC in the form of boxes and being able to juke burst with his ult.

Shaco is currently sitting at almost 55% win rate in Diamond+ (60% win rate in Master+), and Shaco mains are now pushing 63% win rate. This number is absolutely insane. I can't remember ever in the history of League seeing a champion with such a high win rate; the highest is normally around 60-61%.

This really needs to stop. I feel like someone isn't doing their job here.

79 Comments

Craft Zeppelin32 votes

Riot should have never allowed "Shaco mains" out of all people to give them ideas. They are notorious for brigading communities and think upvoting it to a 70 by fabricating it would give them a say. This is not the second time they done this, its like the third or fourth.

AirKingNeo6 votes

citation*

Eedat14 votes

Last /r/shacomains thread I got told to kill myself twice, insulted repetitively, insulted for being on NA (on the NA boards for some reason), and insulted for disagreeing

MasterDClone2 votes

i recognize your username and tbh you're usually the most downvoted person on everythread, i wouldn't be surprised if most communities have told u to do so, not that it makes it right but just providing context, also usually you are trying to provoke a response not "just disagreeing

Eedat1 votes

If you want context then here

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VsV12H7a-shaco-is-in-dire-need-of-bug-fixes-and-changes?comment=0002

Obviously the egregious responses have been removed

AirKingNeo1 votes

Well, usually intelligent board users are downvoted a lot. This law does not work both ways, though.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Not sure how a single instance of harassment would prove "[All Shaco mains] are notorious for brigading communities and think upvoting it to a 70 by fabricating it would give them a say."

Eedat1 votes

It wasn't one instance. It was like a dozen for me alone in that one thread. They've done it enough times that the /r/shacomains threads are a known shitshow on these boards to the point of being a meme. Everyone knows to get the fuck outta dodge when they crop up

OtterlyLost4 votes

There are threads on this board from a while back that are basically everyone from the Shaco Main reddit coming in and upvoting it even though the champion was fine. I would have to go through, back at least a year to find it, but it does exist.

That said, yes, they shouldn't listen to Shaco mains ever. :/ They're the most deluded bunch of people I've ever met.

3TWarrior2 votes

Yasuo Zed Vayne(though kind of hard to say personalities for marksmen because their "meta" changes so often but a short range vayne seems the easiest to make delusional plays or claims because vayne "can" do these things eventually

MasterDClone1 votes

what does this have to do with anything op is talking about or anything anywhere related to the shaco changes

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

{quoted}

what does this have to do with anything op is talking about or anything anywhere related to the shaco changes

Everything perhaps? Mr Shaco onetrick?

MasterDClone2 votes

well no because your comment was about the shaco community being obnoxious meanwhile op was talking about the champion shaco and the buffs he got being overebearing, which they were as many of us mentioned when playing it on pbe.

You're talking about the toxic shaco community raiding the boards and whatnot which has nothing to do with anything mentioned in op's post lol this is clearly just trying to piss off shaco mains lol rather than anything productive

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

{quoted}

well no because your comment was about the shaco community being obnoxious meanwhile op was talking about the champion shaco and the buffs he got being overebearing, which they were as many of us mentioned when playing it on pbe.

You're talking about the toxic shaco community raiding the boards and whatnot which has nothing to do with anything mentioned in op's post lol this is clearly just trying to piss off shaco mains lol rather than anything productive

Someone posted this but, the shaco community literally begged and cried and insulted everyone who said you can't have that. And now look at this, you people got what you wanted as an update and its overpowered as hell.

Being productive? The cause of this literal clown show happening now was hardly productive in the first place. It ain't my fault.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VsV12H7a-shaco-is-in-dire-need-of-bug-fixes-and-changes?comment=0002

MasterDClone2 votes

so you do admit that your comment has nothing to do with anything op was talking about?, the cause of what is happening is because op got some numbers that were stretched a little, shaco is strong but not op, most tier lists put him at A and his w/r dipped since the nerfs. So yes this thread can be productive but not with people like you attacking players who have had no part in this thread.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

so you do admit that your comment has nothing to do with anything op was talking about?, the cause of what is happening is because op got some numbers that were stretched a little, shaco is strong but not op, most tier lists put him at A and his w/r dipped since the nerfs. So yes this thread can be productive but not with people like you attacking players who have had no part in this thread.

Sorry to put in the same bucket. But I'm sick and tired of the Shaco brigade.

Light of Madness7 votes

If people do not know to buy Pink ward is their problem.

I can win easy against shaco sup .. Pressure + pink ward.

You can also use zyra to destroy boxes

Mihalikb11 votes

Ah yes. Spam a ward that costs 75g to disable his spammable boxes in every lane if there's a Shaco on the enemy team.

Let's call it the "Shaco Tax" is like Morde's QSS tax!

Light of Madness12 votes

Was like this when the wards worked for invisible enemies, like vayne ult,eve etc..

I mean all invisible they have this "tax" I hate but.... you can counter.

Eedat1 votes

It would be like that too if they revealed Shaco too. But they don't so I don't know the point of this comparison

Śhunpo1 votes

Implying you didn't do this prior to the Assassin update anyways...

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Implying you didn't do this prior to the Assassin update anyways...

nah back then the idea was to towerhug and never go out, people had less gold back then.

Śhunpo4 votes

Rubbish, you bought pink wards 24/7 against any and all invis. champs (provided you had a brain).

That said, people did have less gold, but all the same, you could still use your brain and play tactically with your money. You used to have to spend 75g per ward, now you get them for free, you whippersnappers are blooming privileged I tell you!

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Rubbish, you bought pink wards 24/7 against any and all invis. champs (provided you had a brain).

That said, people did have less gold, but all the same, you could still use your brain and play tactically with your money. You used to have to spend 75g per ward, now you get them for free, you whippersnappers are blooming privileged I tell you!

The only champions i bought pinkwards against were, in order of priority, Akali post 6, Talon post 6, Evelynn(when being top or bot) and Twitch situationally.

Akali because it was pretty much mandatory to have a shot at killing her if she was not far behind.

Talon because you needed that to survive him most of the time....well it didnt always help but chances were substantially better.

Eve because only pink wards actually helped a bit against her but given how effective lane ganks were with her it wasnt terribly useful.

Shaco though? His little trick of blinking around before going invisible meant he had a lot of options when he wanted to gank someone, a pink ward hardly did squat against one except perhaps buying you a minute if he really wanted to kill you or camp the lane.

Which is once again the case .

Śhunpo1 votes

I'm sorry, but I don't think you played the same game as everyone else pre season 7, and if you did then you were never really abusing pink wards.

Pink wards were actually so broken against invis. champs, it's just that people hating paying 75g to do so.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, but I don't think you played the same game as everyone else pre season 7, and if you did then you were never really abusing pink wards.

Pink wards were actually so broken against invis. champs, it's just that people hating paying 75g to do so.

I presented examples of common situations to explain my viewpoint whist you keep pressing the opinion that the wards were broken against those champs without any real argument to back up your claims, who is being unreasonable here?

I am fairly sure i listed the majority the uses of pink wards from back then as well as several of their significant blindspots that made them not work quite so well against a skillful opponent in some cases.

Śhunpo1 votes

Alright, well if we're going to be intellectuals about it, let me refute your examples.

Akali disagree, you could easily kill her if you timed your abilities to hit her when she came out of invis or you AOE her down. Also you would buy Hexdrinker or Negatron if she was really that much of a pest.

Talon disagree, just play safe and farm, buy Armguard and/or Tabis+Chain Vest.

Evelynn Again, I disagree, getting some deep wards in her jungle were far more effective than pink wards.

Shaco Much like Eve, ward his jungle and common spots where he could initially Q from, also by being aware of his Q particles.

If you listed Khazix I would very much agree with you, you NEEDED pink wards to properly face him, and as he is right now it is entirely one-sided whenever he has his ult.

I don't even get what we're even arguing about here anyways, are you trying to say that pink wards were amazing or are you trying to say that the fact they cost 75g made them bad? I really do not see the point you're trying to get across here.

I'm just saying that pink wards were incredibly effective, and honestly I would love to have them back over control wards so that we can actually fight the Akali s, Khazix s and Vayne s.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, well if we're going to be intellectuals about it, let me refute your examples.

Akali disagree, you could easily kill her if you timed your abilities to hit her when she came out of invis or you AOE her down. Also you would buy Hexdrinker or Negatron if she was really that much of a pest.

Negtron was far from enough to deal with a good Akali before her nerfs, she was kept super strong for ages to contend with Kassadin, LB and Zed but eventually those guys got nerfed and so did she then.

But before then she was a real terror to deal with post 6,,,,but admittedly she was very weak pre that unless you were melee at which point she was still very annoying and potentially deadly.

Talon disagree, just play safe and farm, buy Armguard and/or Tabis+Chain Vest.

This sucker had,,,,,if i recall right, 600+ range blink+slow and his combo was only slightly less damaging than it is now, he was the one true bane of mages, other squishies and Kassadin everywhere.

Even got my first penta on him, fun times......broken but fun.

Evelynn Again, I disagree, getting some deep wards in her jungle were far more effective than pink wards.

Deep wards LOL.

If you are winning so hard that you have the leeway to deepward then it´s all fine and dandy, one mistake though and suddenly she is snowballing and pain will be extremely abundant.

I mean sure she had long periods of being nerfed to the ground but she had times when she was downright terrifying too, not on the level of Shaco but she still did oneshots out of the blue often enough.

Shaco Much like Eve, ward his jungle and common spots where he could initially Q from, also by being aware of his Q particles.

Do tell me, if old Shaco jumps from say the jungle area by botlane where a red blastcone spawns and runs into lane before starting to stab someone, how do i see the particles? It´s not even on my screen if i am presently farming in the middle of the lane.

Or midlane and he jumps from either the raptor camp side or the other and runs up behind you.

Sure you can ward the blastcone spot, but he´ll notice that and then run down to the river and try again from there, but maybe you have a ward there too?

Aight so he goes off for a minute and a half to clear a camp or two then comes back and suddenly you have no wards.

Dead.

And lets not forget he was the number 1 early game jungler for a very long time as well, while some were still clearing their first or second camp he´d have cleared 3 and come in with a EXP lead and just gut them in their own jungle or steal half the jungle from them before they even knew he had gone there.

That or he´d cheese gank at lvl 2, which was still very lethal as red buff+fear+slow in a 2v1 was deadly even then.

If you listed Khazix I would very much agree with you, you NEEDED pink wards to properly face him, and as he is right now it is entirely one-sided whenever he has his ult.

Problem with old Kha´6 is similar like present Ahri, even if you forced his ult to fail he´d just run off with his speedboost+E then come back 60-80 seconds later and go at it again, and unless you recalled and bought a second ward then shit hit the fan then and there.

He also never had high ult CD, but i agree that present kha6 is bullshit.

I don't even get what we're even arguing about here anyways, are you trying to say that pink wards were amazing or are you trying to say that the fact they cost 75g made them bad? I really do not see the point you're trying to get across here.

I am saying that pink wards were kinda the intended counterplay to invisible champs but they had plenty of ways to get around that which only involved waiting a minute or two while you had to keep wasting gold on wards.

Sure, 75 gold is not much, but if they keep doing it 10 times?

Suddenly you spent 750 gold on wards but if they played it right they only burned some summoners even if things went bad.

Of course some like Akali were actually bad at doing that so they had to be buffed to be hilariously strong to compensate for it which broke them easily which eventually Riot decided to gut them for and just leave them waiting while they brainstormed idea´s until the removal of pink wards.

I'm just saying that pink wards were incredibly effective, and honestly I would love to have them back over control wards so that we can actually fight the Akali s, Khazix s and Vayne s.

And i am saying that they were far from as good as that, sure against say Akali they were amazing, but against some bugger like Khazix Talon who could just easily bait it out and then run off it was hardly doing you any favors at all.

Vayne was also always one of those who were really good at baiting it out and then just running off with her E+q.

Śhunpo1 votes

Look, either way you look at it, I just want pink wards back. 75g is a small price to pay for me to be able to fight Kha6 and his other invisible friends.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Look, either way you look at it, I just want pink wards back. 75g is a small price to pay for me to be able to fight Kha6 and his other invisible friends.

I honestly do not think it´s a good idea, i´d rather they actually keep their stealth BUT actually pay a price for it for i do agree with you, some like kha6 that stealth is just ridiculously strong and quite unfair to deal with, even moreso now that damage has risen on average.

However i will acknowledge that the work Riot put into Akali was.....not a waste when she is into a ranged matchup, still unfair against melee but not a bad job on the ranged 1v1 though.

Her R and E+passive are sufficiently telegraphed that counterplay is actually doable and fighting her is indeed a fun thing.....provided one is not melee since she is still abusing the daylights out of those.

But Akali having counterplay for some does not compensate for others like Kha6 seriously lacking it and that´s an area that needs work, in depth work.

Pink wards are just a bandaid that has limited effectiveness.

Zetrophla2 votes

{quoted}

Ah yes. Spam a ward that costs 75g to disable his spammable boxes in every lane if there's a Shaco on the enemy team.

Let's call it the "Shaco Tax" is like Morde's QSS tax!

By that logic they should just remove Teemo from the game. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Crescent Dusk2 votes

{quoted}

By that logic they should just remove Teemo from the game. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Teemo pays an ult slot for those mushrooms and said mushrooms don't make you lose control of your character on top of damage.

Energy Legend7 votes

"Nerfing his boxes down to 40 seconds did virtually nothing"... Except it made his stupidly OP lvl 3 by ~2:15 not work anymore. Not saying he is weak after that or the nerf was enough but it did more than you think lol.

AirKingNeo6 votes

https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle

looks fine to me.

OneMustFall6 votes

Bullshit numbers with no source? Check.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/shaco/build?rank=diamond_plus

Right. Not even close to the nonsense you're spewing.

Yenn4 votes

{quoted}

Bullshit numbers with no source? Check.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/shaco/build?rank=diamond_plus

Right. Not even close to the nonsense you're spewing.

> 3712 matches

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Shaco/Jungle/

Lol okay

BladeSteel3 votes

Doesn’t lolalytics not update to the new patch until the beginning of the next week? Edit: ah...its worse than that, they artificially inflate their winrates...they end up being 1-4% higher than the actual winrate. Riot has said that u.gg is closest to what is actually correct.

Worst JG Wins4 votes

{quoted}

> 3712 matches

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Shaco/Jungle/

Lol okay

FYI you're linking the past 7 days of 9.21, but 9.21 hasn't been out for 7 days. So your data is actually 9.21+9.20 the last 7 days of those combined. If you click and select 9.21 all days you'll get just 9.21 games.

Shaco's WR in the JG dropped by 1% after the nerfs

OneMustFall2 votes

{quoted}

> 3712 matches

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Shaco/Jungle/

Lol okay

Oh look, you used the only source which artificially inflates it's winrates without mentioning it in your post to try to make your disingenuous statements seem more credible.

Nice.

Śhunpo5 votes

I agree, nerf Ashe and Pyke .

3TWarrior4 votes

wait wait wait, so he has BARELY above average pick and win rates at roughly 6% pick rate and 52% win rate

what's wrong with him again?

Token Log in3 votes

HIs win rate is because they took the skill out of him and with this last nerf they did the opposite of what they should have done. Instead of nerfing the point and click E execute that they gave the biggest buff to they instead nerfed the aspect of shaco that takes skill in properly executing box placement and juggling. Bring back a 60 second box timer and reduce damage at level 1 for boxes and across the board for the E execute.

ArtumisPrime2 votes

They nerfed the 60 second box timer because with the AoE he could place 4 boxes (which he can no longer do) at raptors, and have the boxes kill those raptors w/o his presence, while he got a leash at red, then went to krugs. He is then level 3 at 2 mins into the game, when the side lanes are having their second minion wave meet in the middle, and both side lanes are still level 1.

This was a problem for bot lane because it takes 9 minions to hit level 2. Less so for top lane, because it takes 7 minions.

Garen is adopted3 votes

they will always nerf anything but the acutal issue, and when they acutal nerf the issue the champion will be unplayable because they nerfed everything else alerdy.

MasterDClone1 votes

the box was the biggest issue last patch, they were nerfing the strength on shaco support and the lvl 3 clear red side which both coorelate directly to the box

Garen is adopted1 votes

{quoted}

the box was the biggest issue last patch, they were nerfing the strength on shaco support and the lvl 3 clear red side which both coorelate directly to the box

I was talking generally there, but still, reducing the lifespan didnt seem like best way to nerf, increasing its cd by 2-4s would be more powerful for jg clean nerf and make his box still powerful on support role for lane/map control.

MasterDClone1 votes

although shaco support was the main part of then nerf and the jg clear was kind of like a side objective

Garen is adopted1 votes

{quoted}

although shaco support was the main part of then nerf and the jg clear was kind of like a side objective

oh sorry, then i understand wrong the issue, even if I dont see shaco supp a problem, his boxs take a second to aim and are easy dodgeable, also I imagine shaco is going ap on that build so he doesnt really have much damage outside of boxes and his E.

l MrD l3 votes

Honestly - its not specifically the champion .... its the elements around him

Assasins in general are very strong ... there used to be a time having more than 1 assasin in game was risky now assasins are very common in a lot of games due to runes and items specifically lethality ...

I believe what gave shaco his increase in win rate was the need to not need to be rushing tiamat since his W now has an AOE clear

Imo the lethaility items need to be looked at which they are in next season so when they get changes we then need to judge them

Iźuku Midoriya1 votes

pretty much yeah, shaco is not the problem nor has he ever been the problem but the items and masteries around him are what cause him to be broken

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Yenn

This season has completely neutered skill expression, can we get a new balance team?
Gameplay154 comments
240
votes
Outplaying Lee Sin by juking his Q and sidestepping his ward hop is really fun and rewarding
Gameplay246 comments
234
votes
Rofl Xin
Gameplay112 comments
168
votes
If your champion can't 100 to 0 someone in 3-4 seconds, it's not viable in top, mid, or jungle
Gameplay141 comments
158
votes
Why has Gragas's Body Slam hit box not been fixed yet?
Gameplay96 comments
154
votes
It's 2019 and choosing your secondary runes is still some of the worst UX in the world
Gameplay43 comments
151
votes