Since riot obviously embraces the current snowball....

Barkley·Dec 16, 2017·88 votes·3,957 views

Why don't we just make the game end at first tower?

That's basically how it is anyway, so just cut to the chase. Save me a lot of time.

66 Comments

Dope SoloDec 16, 201718 votes

It does kind of seem like reversals aren't as common now...

BarkleyDec 16, 201747 votes

any game right now:

-Team takes first tower -Team rotates for mid tower -Team rotates for top tower -Team takes drake -Team takes herald. -Team sieges for inner tower -Team chokes out your vision, establishes their own -Team rotates constantly and takes other 2 inner towers via chip damage -Team starves you out of the game -Team takes baron -Team pushes inhibs -Team wins.

25-30 mins

Dope SoloDec 16, 201712 votes

I've been wondering if part of this is a matchmaking issue. I just went through a severe losing streak, winning 5-20 games, I had an average performance, mix of good and bad games. Now I'm stuck getting matches where I can carry 11-0, but my teammates aren't performing nearly as well and we still lose. Match quality has definitely taken a shit.

BarkleyDec 16, 20172 votes

I went on a 16 game win streak after a 5 game loss streak, then another 5 game loss streak, and now I've won 3 in a row.

Who the fuck knows.

GigglesODec 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Match quality has definitely taken a shit.

I don't think it is about match quality. You have all of these people trying to play like they used to. Tanks didn't used to deal this much damage. Fighters used to pick up more tank items and not be so squisky. Adc's (season 1) would pick up tank items so that they would have more safety in hitting the enemy.

Now you have almost all ad's building lethality. If they aren't building lethality they are a super high base damage tank. You have all mages building almost 0 defense. Remember when the go to item was ROA? I do. You would sometimes even stack 2-3 roas for the defense they gave. Now the game ends before you can really even get roa stacked.

ADC's have gotten better at penetrating armor, while armor values have dropped. Randuins season 1 gave 80 armor and 600 or so hp. Now it gives 60. To top it off LW used to give 25% armor pen. Now its what 40%?

If league keeps embracing this there may as well only be a damage class this next season, and anyone that plays otherwise will likely drop rank. That is even if they deserved their rank last season.

MimrDec 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it is about match quality. You have all of these people trying to play like they used to. Tanks didn't used to deal this much damage. Fighters used to pick up more tank items and not be so squisky. Adc's (season 1) would pick up tank items so that they would have more safety in hitting the enemy.

Now you have almost all ad's building lethality. If they aren't building lethality they are a super high base damage tank. You have all mages building almost 0 defense. Remember when the go to item was ROA? I do. You would sometimes even stack 2-3 roas for the defense they gave. Now the game ends before you can really even get roa stacked.

ADC's have gotten better at penetrating armor, while armor values have dropped. Randuins season 1 gave 80 armor and 600 or so hp. Now it gives 60. To top it off LW used to give 25% armor pen. Now its what 40%?

If league keeps embracing this there may as well only be a damage class this next season, and anyone that plays otherwise will likely drop rank. That is even if they deserved their rank last season.

Randuins used to give +375 HP, +5% CDR and +70 or 75 armor along with the slow active. crit damage reduction wasn't there yet and I'm not sure when Cold Steel was added.

Also, LW used to give 35% TOTAL armor pen instead of just bonus. However, until the S3 preseason the order in which % and flat ArPen was applied was reversed, kind of rendering it useless if you also bought stuff like Ghostblade.

Nea104Dec 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've been wondering if part of this is a matchmaking issue. I just went through a severe losing streak, winning 5-20 games, I had an average performance, mix of good and bad games. Now I'm stuck getting matches where I can carry 11-0, but my teammates aren't performing nearly as well and we still lose. Match quality has definitely taken a shit.

Matchmaking is intentionallky flawed, in order to get an overall 50% win ratio (as far as possible). That's why we have win- and lose-streaks, lots of one-sided matches, diamonds and bronzes mixed together and so on. No way it's a huge glitch : D

Banana 18 BroDec 17, 20171 votes

This is exactly the case. All this snowballing theory is a pseudoscience and conspiracy theory.

Since I remember myself playing this game, there were always losing streaks and winning streaks. The game is intentionally made that way. Otherwise, why would you lose 10-15 games in a row? How does that make sense?

Especially match-making in ranked flex is so fucked up it makes me wanna go slap Riot's developers for underestimating such big issue in their system. Around the end of the season I was getting always at least 2 Gold 5s in my team, while I'm Diamond 5. I remember once I wanted to add a gold 5 vayne so we can keep playing as that vayne was good but it didn't allow me as it said their division was too low :) So how the fuck was I matched with the same player in Ranked Flex just the previous game?

While there may be some truth on win ratio from first blood and first tower destroyed, this is not at all the main case to lose the game. If I'm getting lower elos and MMR players in my team most of the time, and have real diamonds and high platinums in enemy team, of course they would penetrate better in the game.

There's 2 scenarios about the match-making system here. Either the Team Leaders at Riot are too lazy to slap their developers on the neck and make them fix the match-making system or Riot intentionally made it that way so we keep playing and thinking it's our fault by losing 10-15 games in a row.

GigglesODec 16, 201726 votes

same thing up in plat/diamond. First tower is a 70% or so winrate. Combine that with the likely first blood (which has a 60% winrate), and you are probably looking at an 80% winrate

An inhib is 90% winrate.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-7-24-infographics

Dope SoloDec 17, 20176 votes

And yes, Yas buffs do make league a popularity contest.

charge attackDec 17, 20173 votes

First tower has ALWAYS BEEN 70% w/r even before first tower blood gold.

It’s not about the winning from first kills or w.e., it’s what happens after and how one mistake at 19min means the games over.

ImTheSideKickDec 17, 201710 votes

this season? sure. always? hell no

seems you didn't play the game when it could last 60 - 70 mins and losing lane didn't mean losing game

charge attackDec 17, 20173 votes

Maybe you don’t realize this but maybe you’ve gotten better and play against better people so they know how to close out games. Games have NEVER lasted 60min on avg. The highest AVERAGE game time EVER was around 40min.

You just saying “hell no” and then pointing to antidotal evidence doesn’t disprove fact. First tower dropping had about a 70% w/r before first tower blood and 72% w/r after.

First tower dropping usually indicates a LOT of things other than just “free gold”.

It USUALLY means that the team has the better jungler and/or bot lane which points more to winning than simply the first tower itself falling. This has been true FOREVER and the gold from the tower itself is not what’s creating the snowball.

ImTheSideKickDec 17, 20174 votes

no I'm pretty sure its was the none stop nerfs to towers, tanks, tank items and buffs to adc

the meta used to be team fights, now its snow ball. damage is up all across the board, new dragon buffs, hareld, baron, mobility creep

you could lose lane, like go 0/3/0 and be a team fight god and win the game several seasons ago, now if you go 0/3/0 in lane the game is over before baron spawns, literally

JorenciceDec 17, 20173 votes

Theres always the flip side.

Whats the point of being a laning god if destroying your opponent in lane does nothing and they can just be a "team fighting god" and win?

Z3SleeperDec 18, 20171 votes

Exactly. These posts don't seem to account for this. If you win lane you sure as hell should have a better chance at winning the game.

Honestly, a 60% winrate for FB and 70% for FT STILL sounds low in my opinion. All that number should tell you is that games are still not entirely determined by FB or FT and comebacks are still happening.

Back in S3 games were no different. If you won early, you won the game. Back then you had oppressive snowballers like Talon in the game too. The only thing that could bring about a comeback was the fact you had a Tristana or something (she was broken hypercarry status).

And Tristana was nerfed for this for obvious reason: If someone loses early and mid, they should not be able to just delete enemies come late game with no actual comeback plays made to get to that point.

HeeroTXDec 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, a 60% winrate for FB and 70% for FT STILL sounds low in my opinion. All that number should tell you is that games are still not entirely determined by FB or FT and comebacks are still happening.

This is why a simple stat like 70% win from First Tower isn't really helpful by itself. It'd be great (this is not gonna happen, but just saying) if we could have stats on how often the other team kills a tower within 1 min of the first tower vs. say you taking a 2nd tower before the enemy takes their first.

Just saying there's a HUGE difference in game flow between "we took first tower 5 secs before enemy" vs. "we took 3 towers before they seriously threatened any".

WolfChasesDec 18, 20171 votes

Agree. And the tilt after enemy scores the first blood is insane nowdays.

KlydeFrogDec 18, 20171 votes

umm yah if getting first tower means winning is what your basically saying then you should take top tower fast or mid .

Z3SleeperDec 18, 20171 votes

They have damage reduction early on. Bot tower doesn't.

Not that I agree with the post.

FatedSaviourDec 16, 20172 votes

I guess I just played a game in another dimension then as the enemy team got first tower, then we got a tower, then our veigar was fed, we protected him and won, godamit how do I get back to my universe

O Fallen ScholarDec 17, 20172 votes

Then what kind of game do u want? 50 minutes of farming while playing a hypercarry and then kill everyone when timer reaches 1 hour? Explain what the hell do u want?

BarkleyDec 17, 20179 votes

A game where both teams have a chance to win, and if a team falls slightly behind, its not the end of the game?

The same thing everyone else wants? A game where if we lose our first tower, the game isn't over 10 minutes later with virtually no chance of a comeback ever?

A competitive experience that doesn't feel like a coin flip?

A game where one single mistake from any of my 5 team mates doesn't cost us the game?

I'm not sure what the hostility is about.

ªTeemoDec 17, 20171 votes

Wouldn't it be more logical to be in this order instead? : -Team takes first tower -Team rotates for top tower -Team takes herald -Team takes mid tower (with herald, since mid tower is harder to take) -Team takes drake

BarkleyDec 17, 20171 votes

It can happen in whatever order, order isn't the point.

The point is once someone gets any sort of advantage, the game is just a snowball from there with zero chance at a comeback.

The DrBonjigolloDec 17, 20172 votes

You sir, must be high elo. Lemme show you how we get down in Gold baby.

-Team takes first bot tower -Team takes second bot tower -Team takes drake -Team rotates for mid tower -Team sieges for inner tower -Team sieges for inhibitor tower -Team takes inhibitor -Team starves you out of the game -Team takes baron for literally no reason when they could be ending the game -Team takes nexus turrets -Team wins.

But if we're lucky we get this:

-Team takes first bot tower -Team takes drake -Team rotates for mid tower -Team sieges for inner tower -Team sieges for inhibitor tower -Team is oom and backs -Team sieges for inhibitor tower -Team dives you under turret and only 3 of them survive (exaggeration considering how turrets hit with wet noodles) -Team takes baron for literally no reason when they could be ending the game and die -Other Team takes baron -Other Team steamrolls through mid -Other Team takes turrets and the inhibitor -Other Team wins because of throw.

TPMJ MDec 17, 20171 votes

Thats basically how the game is supossed to work isnt it? The problem here isnt HOW but WHEN. If everything there happened in 40 min like it has always been, it would be ok, but that happens in 20 min, which means something is VERY WRONG.

JorenciceDec 17, 20171 votes

Average game length has been 27 minutes for about 2 years now.

So...dont really think its a new snowball meta.

korg023Dec 17, 20171 votes

exactly there are no comebacks so often as before. The main reason is huuge snowball especially in combination with massive dmg with new runes and weak non existent towers that are impossible to stall out if enemy team has baron or just simply wants to dive you.

Succubús GFDec 17, 201714 votes

But theres always that "Never surrender" kind of asshole who refuses to surrender when it is 0 to 43

BarkleyDec 17, 20176 votes

I never surrender ranked games. Had too many games where everyone wanted to surrender, the vote rested on me, and I said no, and we won.

I just can't justify it. Won too many games I should have lost simply because I waited it out.

korg023Dec 17, 20171 votes

Lol thank you, you just made my day. Most relatable comment i read in a long time.

Dream HighDec 18, 20172 votes

I don't ff. Most people dont know what a lost game is and cry for an ff vote when the sloghtest thing doesn't go their way and ensure a loss to prove thier point that the game is a loss. The scenario you listed is an obvious hyperbole. Also it's practice when playing behind.

z63XnLCMwXDec 16, 201710 votes

They even have an event which embraces snowball throwing. Poro King

BarkleyDec 16, 201710 votes

theory confirmed. Riot loves snowballs.

I KNEW IT.

Sraeg2013Dec 16, 20171 votes

Well, they do love shoving Poros up every hole, nook and cranny they can find.

Bottom LanerDec 17, 20171 votes

Sona can vouch on how fun that is.

Sraeg2013Dec 17, 20174 votes

What do you mea-

*google*

https://i.imgur.com/vKQmq5Q.jpg?v

PinkajDec 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

theory confirmed. Riot loves snowballs.

I KNEW IT.

THAT'S WHY THE POROS LOOK LIKE SNOWBALLS OMGGGG

SweedishGunnerDec 17, 20179 votes

And Riot even pushes out a change to 'buff towers' but it has the opposite effect.

GuttlerDec 17, 20179 votes

I'm amazed that Nunu isn't meta because it's literally impossible to stop him from snowballing.

hoyohaiDec 17, 20171 votes

Windwall?

deadlychuckDec 17, 20171 votes

Actually i think iceball is one of the few projectiles which passes through windwall

GigaPubeDec 17, 20179 votes

what people wanted - games to not snowball out of control too early on

what people didnt want - snowball meta

what people got - worse than snowball meta

how riot are dealing with it - "now you can surrender at 15 minutes!"

TheCodeisCupCakeDec 17, 20174 votes

This game at this state is literally whoever buys the first duskblade or destroyed the first tower wins, trying out Kayn on my first game i went 0-4 bought duskblade and snowballed from a gank bot (killed 2 and got first tower) to 34- 11 their Jihn even bought a Zhonyas

ntbcoolDec 17, 20173 votes

if it's see easy to fix, then why don't you lay out the plan.... Obviously the game isn't gonna be balanced after changing the whole runes and masteries system that drastically affects every champion in the game. Just making the same complaining posts over and over again is point less, and just sad.

PaffWasTakenDec 17, 20172 votes

Riot: "We care about our community and their feedback"

BarkleyDec 17, 20172 votes

best joke in league of legends. I laugh every time.

JoseraphDec 18, 20172 votes

Whoever gets first CS wins

HeeroTXDec 18, 20172 votes

Riot's big issue has always(?) been stated that the early game is "boring to watch" (ie. LCS isn't entertaining). The tower thing is amusing hyperbole, but why don't they either just default starting gold to 10k or at least make a game mode that starts that way. I mean, seriously, if the problem is that the early farm period is "boring" then why not just get rid of it? I get that there's early champs that would have problems in that sort of environment, but I don't see how that's different from screwing the LATE game champs by having a snowball system that doesn't really allow you to GET to late game.