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What if Zed had mana instead of energy?

IP Masquerena··9 votes·6,254 views

So, after playing against Zed, LeBlanc, Talon and Katarina a few times as both mana and manaless champion, I can say a few things about these match-ups.

As a mana champ, LeBlanc and Talon felt quite good, attrition fights, who runs out of mana first for pushing and making mistakes, while Kat, having her short ranges wasn't a problem.

As for Zed? He felt unfair from the get go. As a mana champ, if I need mana and expend it a lot (champs like Taliyah), then Zed has an unfair advantage from the go because I'm in a lose-lose situation just because he's Zed. He has energy but has quite high ranges so he can shove decently but because he is Zed, I need to rush an Armguard unless he's a complete moron, but as a mana champion, that hinders me in a different way, as I have no form of big mana recovery, aka, my Lost Chapter, so even if Zed can't kill me, he can still force me out of lane simply by shoving the lane, as he regains his whole energy between waves, assuming he used it all (suuuuuuuure, at those cooldowns?). But if I don't get the Armguard and get the Chapter, then I don't have enough armor to defend against his WEQ combo as well putting me in a prime position to be killed by him.

As manaless champ, Talon, LeBlanc and Katarina were interesting match-ups, Kat feeling as quite a skill match up, LeBlanc was basically a "who fucks first" while Talon felt to be in my favor but not by a large extent due to me being melee with short ranges (I played Kat and Akali).

As for Zed? He felt fair for once, I could match his shove and if I didn't screw up, he needed to start playing actually smart instead of the normal WEQ half your health or mindless push he does.

Zed's energy base and the fact that mages need to get an Armguard against him gives him a huge advantage in uncoordinated solo que, as the mage needs help from the jungler to keep Zed on the back foot but if that doesn't happen, Zed simply "wins" the lane by having better recall timers, better farm and better roam opportunities (let's be honest, what does a mage with no mana and a wave crashing in his tower get from trying to chase the Zed's roam beside a grey screen?), while if the mage doesn't get the Armguard, Zed has quite high kill pressure due to Lethality.

So my question is, what if Zed had mana instead of energy?

That way, a mage can chose between Chapter and Armguard more reliably, as if he gets the Chapter, he can force the Zed out of lane with pushes but he can still be all in'd due to the lack or armor, while if he gets the armor, he can still try to match Zed's shove to the point where it becomes a skill match up instead of a "hey, I'm Zed, you're a mage, I'm not a moron, so unless your jungler wins you the lane, you got no options".

56 Comments

Sanghelios11 votes

You don't realize it until you play Zed, but the energy costs are gating Zed from spamming his abilities on cooldown, especially during the later stages of the game, where 40% CDR can't be fully utilized, except with blue buff.

What if Zed had mana instead of energy? He'd be beyond broken.

Armguard, Barrier, Stopwatch, Ninja Tabis, Armor Runes. Plenty of tools to automatically, and effortlessly outlane Zed.

Illabethe1 votes

All could be adjusted with longer cooldowns.....

Zed has one of the easiest energy sustain conditions in his kit of all assassins.

And it's not like it gates him from a full Energy Execution ever 30-40 seconds as he roams from lane to lane.....

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

All could be adjusted with longer cooldowns.....

Then there is no point in playing the champion if he becomes just like a mage, but with 0 utility instead You pick Zed for lane pressure, nothing else

IP Masquerena1 votes

Since when is Zed a lane bully?

I never recall him being designed like that, so why not bring him back to his roots?

The Chillin1 votes

This is completely incorrect, of every energy user aside from Shen, zed has the worst energy restoration. You can get 50 energy for mimicd abilities with 5 points in w. Realistically you will land 1 or 2 mimics in the early to midgame at any given trade opportunity. Restoring 60 energy (30 x2). Lee sin gets 40l20 on first and second auto after each ability, Akali gets it from her passive and w, kennen gets energy from touching anything with E or stunning a target.

Zedastian7 votes

Zed would only have mana issues early on, but he'd scale much harder. Energy costs severely gate his teamfighting prowess, and mismanagement of energy gets you killed. A mage with a Lost Chapter item is far more efficient than Zed in a teamfight since mana pools become huge, while energy remains at a static 200 for the entire game. Even Talon who doesn't itemize for mana can fight for longer periods of time without restraint.

Illabethe3 votes

Except...... Zed generally is roaming enough to regain his energy, and his Energy gain condition is one of the easiest to fulfill......

TehNACHO1 votes

I think you completely misunderstood.

Energy is strongest if we're talking in the moment to moment, do a quick trade and back off until the next playstyle. What Zedastian is pointing out, and what most people should learn is Energy's major weakness in all in fights. You're often locked to very specific combos to get your recharge and to maximize your ability usage. Furthermore, upon completing these comboes, you're often locked out of the fight for at least a few moments for your energy to recharge. There is no way around this. Yes Zed is annoying at level 6 because all of his play potential is right there, but his play potential largely remains static all throughout the game as there's no way around Energy's low cap.

Mana has the opposite strengths and problems. Since mana doesn't recharge as quickly over time, many mages will quickly burn through their pool slinging spells every trade. However, the vast majority of (let's say in this case) Mages have way more flexibility to simply spellsling throughout the fight, or have access to wider comboes since they don't need to regain mana through a particular combo. Furthermore, the vast majority of mana users don't even notice their mana costs by the late game. They've often built out of or even naturally scaled out of a realistic amount of mana that they'd use while out in the field.

You're right in that an energy based Zed can simply back off or use the right combo to regain his energy, sure. That's not the point though. If he was instead given a mana pool, his play potential by the later stages of the game would only get even more ridiculous as he's basically not even going to think about landing the right combo to recharge halfway through the fight, and he's not effectively locked out of the fight for whatever amount of time once his combo is over.

Energy and mana have completely different, and if anything basically opposite strengths and weaknesses. To reply to the OP of this thread, switching Zed to mana would only introduce different problems while getting rid of a lot of the gating that he currently has now.

Illabethe1 votes

My general problem is simply that Zed is unique in that once mastered, the stars align for every part of his kit. He's nearly GUARANTEED the kill every time he ends up somewhere. A second champion may be able to kill him after he's expended everything, but a good Zed will never be put in that situation.

It doesn't matter if he's Energy or Mana in this respect. If you are guaranteed a kill on a roam, why would it? You accomplished your objective, and there's no more immediate threats. You can kill the wave of the lane you just ganked, and then move on to the next lane and get your next series of kills.

I don't believe Energy/Mana are that different. In Season 8 they universalized Energy gain, and it behaves a hell of a lot more like Mana than it used to. The E/10 is higher, and most of the costs dropped. Percent of bar per second really is similar now, especially since they nerfed mana regen rates across the board.

IP Masquerena1 votes

You don't need to even fully master him to get decent kills, as in the way he is now, unless you play with bots that go alone and die repeatedly on your team, you're having a high chance of winning it. Zed's Q costs 65 energy on a 6s cooldown, that's all but 5 energy fully regenerated by the time the cooldown is finished early game.

I played Zed, twice, since I was the very first pick I picked him, because accordion to Zed main, "he's bad, weak and you can't do nothing if you don't master him".

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2172207903/219466781?tab=overview

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2172146287/219466781?tab=overview

Yes, we lost both games, as in the 1st one linked, me and Shun were playing basically a 2v8, ok, 2v7, I made Yasuo rq. Kai'sa would never help the team because "only noobs fight instead of farm" while Kindred and Brand....let's say the 0 mark Kindred at 20 mins is enough of a draw back as it is.

2nd linked game was not too different, WW was a friend as well, but we just couldn't do much, the enemy was a 5 man, while Swain and Kai'sa were duo, when I asked why they never wanted to help us, Kai'sa simply stated "I don't see a point to tryhard in this shit game, at how bad it is, no wonder it's dying" (PSA: If you think the game is shit and you don't have fun, don't play). All she did was steal a few kills by waiting till we died and just refused to help, making it a 3v7, or 6, however you want to see her.

But the point still stands, I have like 1k mastery on Zed, 1.4k at best, need to check when I'm home, but that doesn't matter. At how "weak and hard to play" the boards make Zed seem, I shouldn't be able to get those scores, yes, I couldn't hard carry the game, but who can in 2v8's when the enemy plays like a team?

Point is, Zed is still quite decently strong, maybe more than he should be, it's way too easy to get kills on him, and his passive? I was last hitting casters from almost half HP with just a Dirk...., get rid of that last hit assistance ffs, why does he get training wheels?

Illabethe1 votes

What I meant by mastered was indeed that.

Most people can pick up Zed and perform well enough to be confident.

But.... it's those "perfect" energy uses and "positioning" you learn over time that put his already spamming kit into question.

I've had Zeds literally go lane to lane and find just the right angle of approach that you cannot see them, even if you are a good warder. And then they just murder one person after another every 30-40 seconds by taking advantage of that ward blind spot and using as few skills as possible.

It's really nice to be leaving your base with turrets still up, and as soon as you are reaching the base border wall, getting a Double Zed Q, and W to the face, and he still has his ult up for whoever comes to try to revenge you, just because that's not a place people expect to be ganked.

Once you learn to play like that.... he's just a bot killer.

The way you play..... you'd probably leave me 10-12 opportunities to kill you (me alone). You might be able to pull a score you're happy with vs my team, but your mistakes would be visible.

Mastered Zed's would kill me too.

IP Masquerena1 votes

I agree about the vision thing, there's nothing scarier than an assassin coming from a blind spot.

Virkayu released a video about blind spots in warding not too long ago, have you seen it?

I think Zed needs a full rework to be less telegraphed, that would make him easier to balance.

Telegraphed skill sets like his have the issue that they need number back up to when they hit they do stuff, but unlike others, Zed isn't punishable enough without jungle help if he misses his WEQ, which is kinda meh. But that's my opinion, others may disagree.

Vulkus I6 votes

Imagine thinking Zed is broken after his nerfs

Genghis Khat3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vulkus I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRTQ4fHE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-23T11:53:10.354+0000)

Imagine thinking Zed is broken after his nerfs

Imagine thinking zed doesnt need any more nerfs now.

LTK KoRo4 votes

imagine complaining about zed when current vayne exists

Genghis Khat2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRTQ4fHE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-23T17:20:40.645+0000)

imagine complaining about zed when current vayne exists

you mean the bish that i delete in 0.2 seconds cause she cant go invincible against my aoe burst as katarina? :^) oh ye im so gonna complain about something that i hard destroy. unlike a ninja that can miss Q W E R ignite electrocute and still kill me whilst being invincible HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

LTK KoRo2 votes

as expected, kata mains care only about kata and her roflstomping everyone. cool

IP Masquerena2 votes

Not like Zed mains care about something else. Last patch when Zed was considered S tier by pretty much anyone, Zed mains called him "barely playable".

LTK KoRo2 votes

well yes, gameplay mains of any champion only care about said champion being strong in every matchup. That's why this place is usually a big waste of time for everyone involved

Genghis Khat2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRTQ4fHE,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-24T05:38:23.070+0000)

as expected, kata mains care only about kata and her roflstomping everyone. cool

? bish? i want my champ nerfed to 48% average winrate. she is op to the point of not being fun right now.? what are you on about? I legit get disgusted when people complain about assassins who have 51%+ winrate being weak..

xDogMeatx5 votes

if zed had a regular mana pool he would benefit off of cdr more often but have a limited supply of attacks. because energy is more plentiful he wont have to back since his "mana" currently is just useful after 2 rotations. if you put in normal mana zed he would probably have full cdr essence reaver he may run out of mana but he can sustain combat more and actually be a brawler then a ninja.

IP Masquerena2 votes

Well, he already builds 40% with Dusk Blade, Ghost Blade and Black Cleaver, so "benefiting more from CDR" isn't technically correct.

Talon also has mana and needs to attack to proc his passive and still goes full one shot assassin, so I don't see Zed being more "bruiser than assassin".

Pantheon is another mana user who goes full glass cannon, blue Kayn as well.

Zed's issue is his design, so I think him having a mana bar instead of energy will be a good thing.

Saezio3 votes

zed runs out of energy, while if he had mana he could spam more. That's what it meant that he would benefit from CDR more

xDogMeatx1 votes

exactly my point. thanks thinning my explaination on mana vs energy.

IP Masquerena1 votes

That only works for late game when and if he spams everything on cool down, early game it would make the more impact as he will also need to base for mana, hence why I said that if will allow the mage to counter play him with a Lost Chapter by matching his shove while still retaining the squishy nature so both are required to play it smart, while an Armlet rush would not be such a power loss, as again, smart play will decide the winner.

Right now, if the enemy buys an Armlet, Zed is better off simply shoving, with occasional harass, as the mage will run out of lane bring forced to back or simply lose tower plates to creeps, while Zed doesn't have that issue. If he avoids poke, he can shove indefinitely, only needing to base for items, making the lane too volatile if influenced by the jungler, as if Zed's jungler ganks enough, Zed will still kill through the Armguard because of the level lead, while of the mage's jungler ganks, Zed won't be able to do anything and once the mage gets both the Chapter and the Armguard, Zed is basically shut down.

Yet without jungle influence or one player outskilling the other, Zed gets the upper hand simply because he's Zed, no other assassin does that against mages. It would be accepted if Zed would be the AD version of Kass, the early mage killer, but he's not.

Plus, why would it be bad making some of his match-ups more skill reliant than "I have free advantages". Last I checked, Zed's not a lane bully.

xDogMeatx1 votes

never said mana is a bad thing each has pros/cons (except cough cough riven... garen aka 0 resource champs). mana allows for late game CDR brawling to happen energy has no such thing in the game. energy is great for early/midish game due to its higher 'mana' regeneration but late game after 2 zed rotations hes pretty much tapped out of resources. now if zed had mana late game yes he will 'probably' be a AD kassadin minus the spam spam ult.

The thigh guy3 votes

Careful. We don’t want to make the braindead assassins think too much, then they will quit the game. __

xDogMeatx2 votes

actually i want mana on zed if anything more often then not it will help him if he has a acceptable mana number. lee sin however needs it due to his passive of how it works and his character designing of a monk getting power from Force itself.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

actually i want mana on zed if anything more often then not it will help him if he has a acceptable mana number. lee sin however needs it due to his passive of how it works and his character designing of a monk getting power from Force itself.

Considering the impact of his spells compared to mages, the costs should be high.

xDogMeatx2 votes

actually his costs should be Q: 50 W: 20 E: 45 R: 100 or free (your choice on whats better for him). mana numbers if i reworked him would be between 300-365 range.

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

actually his costs should be Q: 50 W: 20 E: 45 R: 100 or free (your choice on whats better for him). mana numbers if i reworked him would be between 300-365 range.

20 mana for his w? You realize blinks tend to run 80-150 mana right?

xDogMeatx2 votes

considering how expensive already he is if i decide hmmmm heres 300 mana its still the zed 2 rotations rule base mana wise if he goes nuts with his Q/W/E= 115 per use. he only has 2-3 chances to damage his enemy before backing (depending on REAL mana regen and base mana suggestion). thats why i think its a fair amount there. if you put an outrageous number in his W his whole kit has to be buffed as a result since after 1- (maybe almost) 2 rotations hes out of mana.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

considering how expensive already he is if i decide hmmmm heres 300 mana its still the zed 2 rotations rule base mana wise if he goes nuts with his Q/W/E= 115 per use. he only has 2-3 chances to damage his enemy (depending on REAL mana regen and base mana suggestion). thats why i think its a fair amount there.

Go take a gander and lissandra’s mana costs and get back to me.

xDogMeatx2 votes

shes ranged though if she has 0 mana she can still use her AD to kill minions safer than zed lets say they both have 0 mana. plus she regens mana quickly with also more cc to boot.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

shes ranged though if she has 0 mana she can still use her AD to kill minions safer than zed lets say they both have 0 mana. plus she regens mana quickly with also more cc to boot.

And zed has a passive that functions without mana, more mobility, more damage and faster animations.

And like I said. A blink alone generally runs 80+ mana. Let alone a blink with utility added to it.

xDogMeatx2 votes

we cut the W gains down a bit while increasing spell cost to 55 a happy middle ground. it rewards gaining back mana for hitting both shadow attacks but punishing him if he misses.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

we cut the W gains down a bit while increasing spell cost to 55 a happy middle ground. it rewards gaining back mana for hitting both shadow attacks but punishing him if he misses.

Okay. Let me put this in perspective for you.

Ezreal’s q. And ability that is meant to be spammed over and over and over and over and over and over and over, costs 40 mana.

40 mana is the cost for a spell that is meant to be used hundreds if not thousands of times in a game.

None of zeds abilities should cost even close to that small an amount, as he isn’t meant to be spamming abilities.

xDogMeatx2 votes

that makes sense but he loses overall power of if his W is practically a 'ultimate' amount of mana. literally ask anyone though if they agree with your statement then sure ok im wrong its just that it seems excessive number wise.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

that makes sense but he loses overall power of if his W is practically a 'ultimate' amount of mana. literally ask anyone though if they agree with your statement then sure ok im wrong its just that it seems excessive number wise.

That what other blinks cost man. Ezreal again as an example for a blink with a small channel and negligible damage is 85 mana. Lissandra breaks 100 for a delayed blink Yi’s alpha strike breaks 85.

xDogMeatx2 votes

one sec (checks data on champs).... yi is 50 to 75. liss is 80 to 100. while ezreal is a flat 90. so those are their costs.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

one sec (checks data on champs).... yi is 50 to 75. liss is 80 to 100. while ezreal is a flat 90. so those are their costs.

Still averaging 89.9 mana my dude.

xDogMeatx2 votes

literally ask anyone else to see if they agree with you or not. i need more than one opinion there about my hypothetical numbers.

Original Sin3 votes

As for Zed? He felt fair for once, I could match his shove and if I didn't screw up

??? LMFAO

Kenpãchi 2 votes

I don't think you are aware of what u just said , cause his kit is not designed to be a mana champ , he would have severe mana issues early game due to his reliance on Q to farm but he will be insanely op late game , imagine zed with a blue buff spamming his 1.x sec 350 dmg E and 3.x sec 500 dmg Q lategame without having to worry about running out of energy , so big no no my friend

IP Masquerena1 votes

There are a lot of champs that spam spells early and don't have that many problems and are mana users. It all depends on how much mana he gets and what the costs are.

After your reply I'm sure it's a good idea to put some skill back into his kit.

Flawless Fetus2 votes

He'd be soooooo much stronger. He'd have a slightly weaker laning phase, but a substantially strong mid/late.

jng dif victim2 votes

{quoted}

So, after playing against Zed, LeBlanc, Talon and Katarina a few times as both mana and manaless champion, I can say a few things about these match-ups.

As a mana champ, LeBlanc and Talon felt quite good, attrition fights, who runs out of mana first for pushing and making mistakes, while Kat, having her short ranges wasn't a problem.

As for Zed? He felt unfair from the get go. As a mana champ, if I need mana and expend it a lot (champs like Taliyah), then Zed has an unfair advantage from the go because I'm in a lose-lose situation just because he's Zed. He has energy but has quite high ranges so he can shove decently but because he is Zed, I need to rush an Armguard unless he's a complete moron, but as a mana champion, that hinders me in a different way, as I have no form of big mana recovery, aka, my Lost Chapter, so even if Zed can't kill me, he can still force me out of lane simply by shoving the lane, as he regains his whole energy between waves, assuming he used it all (suuuuuuuure, at those cooldowns?). But if I don't get the Armguard and get the Chapter, then I don't have enough armor to defend against his WEQ combo as well putting me in a prime position to be killed by him.

As manaless champ, Talon, LeBlanc and Katarina were interesting match-ups, Kat feeling as quite a skill match up, LeBlanc was basically a "who fucks first" while Talon felt to be in my favor but not by a large extent due to me being melee with short ranges (I played Kat and Akali).

As for Zed? He felt fair for once, I could match his shove and if I didn't screw up, he needed to start playing actually smart instead of the normal WEQ half your health or mindless push he does.

Zed's energy base and the fact that mages need to get an Armguard against him gives him a huge advantage in uncoordinated solo que, as the mage needs help from the jungler to keep Zed on the back foot but if that doesn't happen, Zed simply "wins" the lane by having better recall timers, better farm and better roam opportunities (let's be honest, what does a mage with no mana and a wave crashing in his tower get from trying to chase the Zed's roam beside a grey screen?), while if the mage doesn't get the Armguard, Zed has quite high kill pressure due to Lethality.

So my question is, what if Zed had mana instead of energy?

That way, a mage can chose between Chapter and Armguard more reliably, as if he gets the Chapter, he can force the Zed out of lane with pushes but he can still be all in'd due to the lack or armor, while if he gets the armor, he can still try to match Zed's shove to the point where it becomes a skill match up instead of a "hey, I'm Zed, you're a mage, I'm not a moron, so unless your jungler wins you the lane, you got no options".

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1441571906/m6xv5r5.jpg

Yenn1 votes

instead of the normal WEQ half your health or mindless push he does.

The WEQ is still going to dumpster you before he runs out of mana. This is the #1 problem with him and giving him mana won't fix it.

IP Masquerena1 votes

That depends on costs and how much base mana he gets. If he keeps spamming it on you, even if you buy a Seeker's, he won't be able to push you back nor help the jungler in a gank, because we all know how mindless spam finishes a laning phase.

It will put some skill back in his kit, and he needs it.

His Q CD early is 6s, the cost is 65. He can basically spam it indefinitely and he won't run out of energy.

The Chillin2 votes

You keep saying 65, his q cost is 75/70/65/60/55

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