Because no mini-rework Riot has ever done has ever had follow up work to help it. Nope, never. And for the other crowd, just because Rick said the changes were solid, doesn't mean it doesn't need more work. It means it's in the right direction, and that they like the direction.
RiotMeddler74 votesYep, there'll be followup needed. We think the pattern the kit changes move Aatrox towards is better, that's not to say the numbers are right however.
Looking at Aatrox's performance today so far he's having a really tough time of it. Some of that's expected (people who've never played him trying him, people experimenting with builds or doing what used to work but isn't great anymore). We're seeing significantly worse performance than we'd expect from just that though if he was in a good place. We're going to start testing buffs as a result, possibly for the next patch, possibly for a hotfix before then depending on how Aatrox does over the next few days.
Troy2426216 votesYep, there'll be followup needed. We think the pattern the kit changes move Aatrox towards is better, that's not to say the numbers are right however.
Looking at Aatrox's performance today so far he's having a really tough time of it. Some of that's expected (people who've never played him trying him, people experimenting with builds or doing what used to work but isn't great anymore). We're seeing significantly worse performance than we'd expect from just that though if he was in a good place. We're going to start testing buffs as a result, possibly for the next patch, possibly for a hotfix before then depending on how Aatrox does over the next few days.
May I inquire as to the direction of the changes?
ModAcademy Kayn6 votesProbably to push him more towards their newer idea of Divers, but still an offset variation of a Skirmisher. Newer divers, like Vi, Camille, and Warwick, like to build tankier as their kit supports that tankiness with innate damage. Aatrox, with the percent missing health healing, and more sustained DPS through base AD increase on his passive, which means he likes longer fights, also pushes him towards building Tankier, with things like Steraks to help.
Troy2426214 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRLxraL4,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T23:10:23.980+0000)
Probably to push him more towards their newer idea of Divers, but still an offset variation of a Skirmisher. Newer divers, like Vi, Camille, and Warwick, like to build tankier as their kit supports that tankiness with innate damage. Aatrox, with the percent missing health healing, and more sustained DPS through base AD increase on his passive, which means he likes longer fights, also pushes him towards building Tankier, with things like Steraks to help.
I agree Aatrox should want sustained fights, but his kit doesn't really facilitate that right now in my opinion. Nobody is going to stand still and let Aatrox rail their ass, and he's extremely easy to kite with his 5 year long cooldowns.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesBut those are numbers. Numbers can be changed, and tweaked, and with how Aatrox is now, I wouldn't be surprised if his main mobility get's a CD Buff, if this route continues.
Troy2426214 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRLxraL4,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T23:15:22.482+0000)
But those are numbers. Numbers can be changed, and tweaked, and with how Aatrox is now, I wouldn't be surprised if his main mobility get's a CD Buff, if this route continues.
I don't dislike his changes he received, I'm just describing where he stands now as a champion.
YoungSirJ0ey2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRLxraL4,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T23:10:23.980+0000)
Newer divers, like Vi
Aatrox was released in March 2013. VI was released in December 2012. Just sayin'.
RiotMeddler27 votesBuffs, not sure beyond that yet. We've literally just started getting feedback on how he's doing this afternoon so we're still building out an understanding beyond 'looks like he's weak enough we should do something quickly'.
ZaNJeTsU2 votes@Meddler why you don't give his E a stun instead of slow, or add a mechanic to it to make him able to look down on a target same as other divers 
Nogrim4 votesthe slow is needed, but may i suggest adding a short stun to where the two blades meet? (maybe match the Q range to be able to land on that point for some further synergy)
SpecterVonBaren2 votesSo give a reward for hitting the tip of the skillshot? Interesting idea.
Nogrim2 votesexactly, its pretty hard to land the tip, and its slow enough that people can get out of the way so you could reasonable put a 1-2 sec stun on it but only where they meet.
Melledoneus23 votesHave you considered changing the way his blood well works? It drains awfully fast and is terribly difficult to fill up in a real fight.
Additionally, since the revive is no longer defensively optimized, you should consider shortening how long it takes for Aatrox to re-animate.
what you deserve6 votesThese two changes exactly
lightdragoon8813 votesI think his Blood Rush refresh should also trigger on large/epic jungle monsters. Otherwise he just can't jungle anymore.
SanKakU1 votesI will respond by letting you know that the way his scalings are displayed isn't intuitive for the players to know how to play him. Either drop the AP scaling or add more of it for starters. Then, might as well take away health scaling on the healing...don't know what you'd replace it with, but good W builds always revolved around lifesteal, and they will even after this rework. And finally, just want to point out that critical strike items are the only thing he can buy viably now because if he gets anything else, he doesn't have anywhere near enough attack speed to get his blood rush going AND have relevant damage to go with it. I'm okay with him doing well with critical strike items personally, but I think it's weird that the player base doesn't know to build it. If the ultimate damage and W healing(just an easy example of a change that wouldn't change much I think) scaled with critical strike stats, then it would be more obvious they should be buying it.
Other than the primary concern over players not knowing what works good on him, there is the idea of what else you might buff. I was getting Essence Reaver and even though the mana part of it isn't necessary on him, the item performed well by giving him a lot of CDR. So, I would target buffs primarily on CDs for his abilities if I were you guys, just my thought. It's difficult to imagine him being tanky working without a lot of attack speed and believe me, I tried Wit's End...it's just not viable...if the cooldowns were reduced then maybe, just maybe, tanky Aatrox would work. How do you get his pool to activate if you're attacking slowly? Got to use E and Q more often. You'd also need to greatly increase the health scaling on the W if you really wanted to stick with that. Maybe add on health scaling into damage on E like Braum has health scaling into damage on his Q.
Jeitsu1 votesMeddler, hotfix for Aatrox is finally live in 7.5 but everybody realized that it wasn't enough to make the champ viable, would be more changes for Aatrox in 7.6? Im all day long spaming Aatrox top (not viable for jungler). I would like you to reply me please :D.
Tormentula6 votesOff topic from Aatrox, but how's Rek'sai coming along?
Riotplaytestpenguin18 votesAs a playtester I think she'll be one of our most successful mini-reworks in terms of play pattern. That's all I can really say unfortunately :)
Tormentula5 votesThat's all I need to hear!
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
DCYOUNG8884 votesSo her changes won't come out this pbe patch then?
Riotplaytestpenguin8 votesI don't know when she's going to PBE unfortunately.
Failog9 votesThank you for responding.
Meddler, you guys gutted him. Okay sure you can make his numbers better, but hes not fun to play anymore. How did you guys expect better performance? Every Aatrox main took one look at the changes and instantly knew he was going to do worse. What tools do you use to come to these conclusions? Its mind boggling.
I'm sorry dude, but Riot had 2 years of input from Aatrox mains and you guys ignored nearly all of it. In fact the changes made his problems worse.
Keep this in mind too. He is the only fighter or top laner you will see that has no built in blocks, parries, resistances or shields. With the old Aatrox his sustain was his defense. That is severely gutted. So he builds tanky now? So what, anyone can build tanky. The difference is when Olaf does it he still does true damage. When Voli does it he does damage based on his max HP. Him building tanky makes him do even less damage because his W was completely gutted.
That bonus AD on his Blood Price in now way compensates for 60-200 plus 100% bonus AD. The W was a nerf, the slow is much worse now, due to its duration. No one wanted to asked for his Q scaling to be better.
Also, look at how many champions he will be facing do mixed damage and percent of health damage. Why did you insist on making him even easier to shut down with a few armor items? Why is he the only one not allowed to being doing either true damage, bonus magic damage (like jax) or %of health damage. Furthermore, he has no built in armor pen or crits.
So Aatrox is the only champion who is basically bare bones. No shields, no blocks, no parries, no built in resistances or tenacity, no built in crits or armor reduction and no magic damage, true damage or percent to health damage.
The reason why his revive doesn't count as a defensive stat in the same category as the ones I mentioned is that the other champiosn defensive stats help keep them alive while doing damage. Nasus bonus health and resistance and health, Pantheon blocks, Fiora spell shields, Riven has a shield that scales off of AD, etc etc etc. These are way more useful in more situations than a revive that leaves you a sitting duck.
The ONLY reason it was okay for him to be such a bare bones champion was his incredibly healing. Not his passive, but his healing. And this gone.
Please listen to your customers more next time. Any one of us could have told you these changes were awful with a casual glance.
Ralanr9 votes"He is the only fighter or top laner you will see that has no built in blocks, parries, resistances or shields"
.
None have blocks, parries, extra resistances, or shields.
Out of these, without the armor reduction, percent health damage, true damage, inbuilt resistances, inbuilt crits or resistances:
.
AirKingNeo9 votesQuinn isn't a fighter.
Singed isn't a fighter.
Trundle has his ult which is extra resistances.
Volibear has mad base stats as compensation.
Yorick had mad base stats but not as mad as Volibear and thus why he needs buffs.
Wukong has a resistance bonus.
Teemo isn't a fighter.
Ralanr4 votesTop laners.
AirKingNeo3 votesand notice, none but 1, are meta.
Ralanr4 votesI never argued they were meta. Aatrox never was either. Just refuting that Aatrox is the only top laner without X.
If Volibear's sustain is resistances than so is Aatrox.
The difference is that Aatrox is pure and utter garbage.
AirKingNeo1 votesI never called Volibear's sustain "resistances".
I mentioned the meta because that shows you need a resistance buff to be meta unlike Aatrox.
Ralanr1 votesI was referring to Dark's explanation of Volibear's passive.
Failog1 votesThe reason I value Volibears passive as more of a defensive ability is that he is able to run away or attack while he is gaining the health back instead of just sitting there like a sitting duck.
Ralanr1 votesIt's still a health regeneration ability.
It's not that Aatrox has no defensive abilities, it's that they are pure shit and he's too reliant on them. If he doesn't snowball then he's flat out useless.
Failog1 votesHe doesn't have any defensive abilities. He only has a revive and healing. But most champions have some way to heal at top lane. Both are shit now. But with the old Aatrox they were powerful enough to compensate for his total squishiness. But there was counterplay to him. Hit him with hard CC. exhaust him, run randuins and frozen heart, or Nasus wither etc.
Ralanr2 votesHealing. Is. A. Defensive. Ability.
Ralanr2 votesInstead it makes it so the damage didn't really apply in the first place. If anything, healing is conceptually the strongest defensive ability in gaming.
Aatrox is just fucking garbage and is intentionally kept that way because he'd be super oppressive otherwise.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votesSo much BS...
U think of Aatrox as a simple skirmisher, but he's not. He's a Divers and then has skirmisher attribut.
Spartan Sol2 votesYep, there'll be followup needed. We think the pattern the kit changes move Aatrox towards is better, that's not to say the numbers are right however.
Looking at Aatrox's performance today so far he's having a really tough time of it. Some of that's expected (people who've never played him trying him, people experimenting with builds or doing what used to work but isn't great anymore). We're seeing significantly worse performance than we'd expect from just that though if he was in a good place. We're going to start testing buffs as a result, possibly for the next patch, possibly for a hotfix before then depending on how Aatrox does over the next few days.
honestly a revert but leaving the health costs and giving him a full blood well on revive would have been the easy bandaid fix for aatrox. obviously as someone who plays aatrox i would enjoy being untargettable during his Q animation as well but id be fine with just the 2 before. those changes wouldn't break aatrox but would buff him just enough to help until his full rework in the diver update. currently his kit is just god awful and no amount of number changes is really going to change how clunky he is.
SH Azykan2 votesmy question is now why pick Aatrox over Xin anymore? or even jax, or trynd
Xins heal is better, gapclose is better, and dps is higher even building tanky. + brings a more reliable chain of cc and xins ult has utility in a teamfight. + doesnt lose his threat if the enemy just all ins after the new minion wave shows up if aatrox had to recall or cleared the previous wave
Aatrox used to have better mixed damage making itemizing against him harder for non true tanks (who got plenty of resists if aatrox ignored building pen), better healing when it mattered (low hp), and a way to poke. Plus his revive
Jax ramps harder, better gapcloser, still has good mixed damage, naturally bulkier
Tryndamere is tryndamere...
now aatrox lost the mixed damage, his poke is the same as his normal scaling meaning tabis actually screw him hard where before it was manageable, his threat timer is crippled with this new passive. he doesnt ramp that hard because it takes too long to get there. His revive is gated hard enough where the times where it used to matter most are now gone.
I used to consider those 4 the main AA commit and fight guys, and now aatrox just fails to all 3 of them in basically every regard, where before he had some advantages over them to compensate for them being better at some things.
Tusutaki2 votesWe're seeing significantly worse performance than we'd expect from just that though if he was in a good place. We're going to start testing buffs as a result, possibly for the next patch, possibly for a hotfix before then depending on how Aatrox does over the next few days.
Oh really? So nobody thought that this would be a bad idea? Literally nobody raised their voice on the Blood Well passive change alone? Nobody ever did calculations to see the numbers beforehand and noticed that he's objectively worse in every way save for his W base heal?
Derfel12 votesConsidering Riot followed up the mess of a Malz rework by turning him into a support I guess you can expect Aatrox mid real soon.
Misticaltom7 votesAatrox needs far more serious work than Rito seems to realize. His model oozes sexy, his skin's are nice, his voice over killer.
That Q is slow, wonky, ineffective, intentionally weak, has a long CD and an epic animation. That W needs incentive's to swap between Healin' or Damagin' and it ain't providing a choice. The passive, oh god the passive. It's either that stupid ats steroid that you NEED which DRAINS YOU WHEN YOU REVIVE or this new Blood rush thing. Regardless, a short duration revive(it's the fastest revive in the game) should allow you to continue a fight, not straight up end it for you. E is stupid, but don't worry about that now. His R is also epic....and silly. AoE Damage and an ATS steroid? The increased range is nice but doesn't much do anything Kayle doesn't have.
Aatrox is a neatly drawn, horribly designed clone of XIn Zhao without any of the mechanical fun.
midnight oil241 votesThey did say that this is just a bandaid till they can get around to having a much more big scale rework for him.
Failog2 votesIf by bandaid you mean opening up the wound more and putting salt in it, sure.
midnight oil241 votesI mean, it wasn't meant to make him perfect, but rather just to make him buffable. This isn't the last we'll hear of new aatrox before newer aatrox shows up.
Failog3 votesPBE input was that the changes were shit and he was weak. They could have buffed him there first. This is not excusable. What, so we have to put our rank on the line to play Aatrox so they can get data? Im okay with that if the champion is just a little weak or a little strong, but not so completely weak its ridiculous.
Arkadije953 votesWell Rito did not touch Aatrox for a couple of years and now that they did he is worst then he was, so you can kinda understand why people think that Rito is just going to leave Aatrox like this in the dumpster. Oh and if Rito really does follow up their mini reworks to make champions more solid then why has Mordekaiser not recived any updates after his rework, a rework considered to be the worst one ever? Instead of putting in actual work into reworking older champions that matter and have interesting lore and kit, Rito wants to make ,,balanced,, champions like Camile, give older champions a mini ,,update,, and call it a day. But hey, what do I know?
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesMordekaiser did get follow up on his rework though... like, a lot of it. Ask Malicious Metal if you don't believe me. And I kinda don't understand the fact of "Let's actually put some effort into trying to make him buffable, and then not buff him", because that was the point of the rework. To make it so that he could be buffed.
Aatrox does need an actual rework yeah, but so do SOOOOOOOoooooo many other older champs, like the newest Galio, or people like Urgot, Evelynn, Swain... you know, people who were made long before 2013. The mini-rework was meant to put Aatrox into a buffable state, not just to buff Aatrox.
Arkadije952 votesIf you think Mordekaiser is a good champion now then good for you, go and play him then. A rework is meant to fix a champion not to put them into whatever bull crap Rito has be feeding you with state you mentioned. And as for the whole Urgot, Evelynn and Swain thing you said do you know what those champions are that Aatrox is not? You do not know? Ok, I will tell you. They are PLAYABLE, VIABLE, IN AN OK PLACE AND WHATEVER TERM OR PHRASE YOU CAN THINK OF THAT MEANS YOU CAN PLAY THEM WITHOUT FEEDING OUT YOUR ASS. Also Aatrox is the worst champion Rito has made balance wise and gameplay wise. So yea, sorry that I want Rito to put in actual work into their reworks and not in their skin line and meme production and I think that the WORST CHAMPION IN THE GAME COULD USE SOME ACTUAL EFFORT AND LOVE. But like I sad, what do I know? You clearly have all the answers. And do not tell me that its a game with a 130 something champions, they have to have everything into consideration, game balance and all other bull crap, because this is a company that makes a lot of money, meaning that reasors are not a problem. And if Rito cares about balance the explain Camile.
Rockm Sockm3 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dRLxraL4,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-08T22:56:01.940+0000)
Because no mini-rework Riot has ever done has ever had follow up work to help it. Nope, never. And for the other crowd, just because Rick said the changes were solid, doesn't mean it doesn't need more work. It means it's in the right direction, and that they like the direction.
They promised a follow up and left him in the dumpster for over 3 years.
No changes were made despite numerous feedback on PTR.
Tanks leapfrog divers for a Second update.
Why would anyone assume Aatrox will be touched within 1 yesr