Diamond 5 -6 LP right now because I had to dodge 2 games in a row because the jungler didn't get smite, and I didn't want to risk a demotion.
Please do something about this.
Deep Terror Nami4 votesEh, how about just an obvious team notification that nobody has Smite? Riot is unlikely to force players to take it, so that they get the choice of how to play the game, and they certainly aren't going to let players punish each other directly because it could be greatly abused as a tool for harassment or manipulating matchmaking.
Junkο2 votesA notification won't help people who alt tab out of champ select.
Also people forgetting to take Smite is a problem because you are literally all but forced to take it. Jungle clears are shit without it, you get half exp without a jung item, you get way lower gold, no sustain, etc. All because Riot didn't want bot and top lane to take jungle camps early game.
I wouldn't care about our jungler having Barrier+Flash if he wasn't put 5 levels behind everyone and being unable to build a jungle item because of it.
Hethalean2 votesThat still doesn't counter that Riot is highly unlikely to FORCE players to take it. Ivern is coming out as it is, and he doesn't attack camps to clear. Sure smiting instantly frees it, but you could probably do without. Riot isn't into MAKING you do something, but encouraging you to do it. You do have the choice to not take a gold income / sightstone as a Support. The closet I can think of is they'll auto buy you a yellow trinket if you leave base without buying one. That's only because there is nothing else you can replace it. No decision to be made there. A notification is about as close as you can get. I just think that they could get around it by saving your Summoner's from the last time you played that role.
Aptest4 votesHow do you know that you are playing with a jungler, rather than 2-1-2 ???
Junkο5 votesObviously talking about ranked draft. Where you have to have a jungler.
Aptest4 votesObviously talking about ranked draft. Where you have to have a jungler.
obviously in ranked draft you do NOT have to have a jungler, regardless of what button you press.
Slythion9 votesThis is a classic: "should we enforce the meta" argument
personally, this is one of the few arguments for enforcing the meta that I agree with. There is 0 reason not to take smite as a jungler unless you are purposefully going for a less-useful thing which isn't what ranked draft is for. If someone wants to try clarity/ghost Amumu in a norms, so be it. But in ranked, someone shouldn't be put at an inherent disadvantage for the sake of another person's freedom to select a summoner spell
It should just be a preselected spell when given the jungle role, this would be a lot better of an idea if you were allowed to change what key your summoners are on while ig (just like you can switch what key your items are on)
Hethalean1 votesI'm curious to see if Ivern can break this. Smite will instantly 'free' the jungle camp itself. I wonder if he could manage without it since it otherwise doesn't really speed his jungling... Then again, it frees the ENTIRE camp (aka 1 shot it). Maybe it'll be just too much clear increase to do without. Idk
Slythion1 votesHe'll still be missing out on the bonus XP from the jungle item + a very clear advantage in gaining objectives. It still wouldn't be worth to go smiteless in the jungle.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesHe will need Smite anyways.
Even ignoring how useful it is for securing Rift Herald, Dragon and Baron, he will need the bonus experience (and mana sustain) provided by Hunter's Talisman.
Hethalean1 votesYeah, he'll need the objective control (see other comment response for thoughts on bonus experience) which is why he's likely to have it. Kalista however could replace Smite for objective control (though she's weak atm) or Chogath or anyone who has a HUGE NUKE on monsters.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesYeah, I just replied to your other comment with the exact same alternative before I was notified of this one.
Aptest2 votesas a jungler unless...
If I want to play 2-1-2 in RANKED, how do i do it? I MUST queue as a jungle otherwise someone else will jungle and 2-1-2 is impossible to achieve.
Therefore: to play 2-1-2 I must queue as jungle and actually I am not jungling. This combination of choices MUST be acceptable. So is going support and heading toplane with the riven.
the argument that 2-1-2 is not acceptable in ranked, is BS.
Penns2 votesAnd if the actual top laner doesnt want you to go top as well? Having 2 top laners is pretty much trolling in ranked, why would you even want to not have a jungler?
Aptest1 votesthan that is his problem.
It is not "trolling" to play a support for the top laner, instead of for the ADC. it is not "trolling" to go mid and share farm with the mid laner. it is not trolling to get a second jungler and play double jungle.
These are play styles that are all acceptable. what makes you think, as the mid laner, that you get to veto them on your whim?
Penns1 votesIt kind of is, at least if you arent premade with the actual top/mid laner or jungler.
Slythion1 votesto purposefully put your team at a disadvantage and to actively become a hindrance, all for that bonus personal pleasure is indeed trolling.
Trolling doesn't necessarily mean "breaking the rules", it means intentionally ruining the enjoyment of players around you. So yes, if you are actively putting your team at a disadvantage by stealing cs/xp from a solo lane, not fulfilling your duty as a support, steal an opponents role, or force them to "share" a role when you know better, you are trolling.
How on earth is forcing someone out of their role (or making his role more difficult to play) just because you didn't want to play your roll not trolling? When you sign up to play a game, you are signing up to play a game with 4 other players. You sign up with the understanding that you are expected to respect your teammates and try your best. You sign up under the expectation that you will play your assigned role.
Don't be that selfish prick and contribute to the bad community that MOBAS are famous for. Don't ruin another player's experience and an entire game just for your own selfish enjoyment. Play the damn game and stop screwing with random teammates.
Flaherty2 votesIf you want to go into a lane then pick a lane. Don't pick jungle and force someone to lane with you. You only put your entire team at a disadvantage by not going into the jungle if you picked jungle as your role. Ranked is a competitive mode where the meta should be enforced because it gives your team the highest chance of winning, which is the most important aspect of ranked games. I'm not saying that ranked shouldn't be fun as well, but almost certainly not fun for the 4 other players in your team and it's not fair to ruin 4 other peoples' games because you just had to play something inefficient even though there are several other games modes you can choose from where most people won't care what you play. Unless you are in a group with 5 of your friends, playing 2 top is selfish and immature for the person who decides they don't want to do their role.
Aptest1 votesif I take your argument at face value, we should outright ban all Yasuo players. And all Ekko, Kalista and Azir players alongside them.
Why? they play champions known to be inefficient, when they can play instead something efficient. Like Annie.
Playing off meta is acceptable. And the other 4 players must either agree to it, or dodge.
As for "meta gives your team the highest chance of winning", that is not necessarily correct. the meta can definitely change. And how do you permit this change, if you enforce it? here look at this player [http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=maxshmit], cheesing his way through Silver with his smite/ignite TOP LANE garen. If you had it your way, he'd have smite not available to him as a summoner. which is a shame.
Or, everybody knows each team should have front line. How about, once the second player locks in an assassin, all "slayer" class champions get locked and nobody can pick them?
Flaherty2 votesWe're not talking about specific champions though so why even try to shoehorn that argument in? We're talking about forcing yourself into a lane no one wants you in so stick to that please. Your example of that player reinforces what I'm saying. 3000 ranked games played and he's only silver 4 most likely because of playing stupid things like smite ignite garen top. That is not an accomplishment at all. If your team is fine with 2 top lane then that's fine but I'm talking about the cases where one person just says "I want to be with another teammate in lane but I don't want to go bot so guy going top or mid I'm going to stay with you because fuck everyone else but me." Why is what you want more important than what 4 other people want? What makes you more important than them? It's really fucking selfish to say that 4 other people must conform to what you want or dodge, especially when there are game modes that people don't really mind that much and if you don't want to be jungle then guess what there are 3 other lanes you can choose from and you can let someone who wants to jungle be in the jungle.
Aptest1 votesI will use any argument that is valid. enforcing the meta is about all things that are meta in the game including champion choices. Making people not play Soraka jungle is the same as making people not play support top lane. I have not changed the subject one bit. your argument that my reasoning is "off topic" is false logic.
Why is what you want more important than what 4 other people want?
It is not. But it is not any less important, either. My desires are just as valid as everybody Else's and to some extent other people must compromise to accommodate them. Therefore a compromise must be met.
The compromise is simple: I do not tell you what to play and how, and you do not tell me what to play and how. You do not get to veto my choice, and I do not get to veto yours. And if you do not like it, take a 5 minutes time out.
that is a reasonable compromise. Whereas your solution, "no you can't ever regardless rito please turn off his options" is unreasonable.
EDIT:
Why is what you want more important than what 4 other people want?
so basically, the 4 people can vote that you play Amumu, rather than Graves. because "need a tank".
Flaherty1 votesIt's not a compromise though, you are given the option to play in so many games modes and do whatever you want because people don't care as much while the other players that are playing the competitive game mode and would prefer to not have 2 top in almost every case are forced to either deal with you or dodge the queue. By your logic it's perfectly fine for a player to troll a game or feed intentionally or flame other players as long as they don't try to interfere with how you play. That's not okay.
Aptest1 votesWhen I go double jungle, the result is pissing my team's jungler and my team's ADC. But the intention is to play effectively with this style and attempt to win.
When I walk into the enemy tower and type /dance while taking shots in front of the enemy laner, my intention is to make my team lose and have a miserable time.
When I flame my intention is to make my team mates not have fun.
you are confusing the results of an action, with the aim behind it. When I play soraka jungle I do not aim to make my team's mid upset. he is upset of his own volition and has every capacity to not get upset. When I flame my team, my team has to directly counter my actions in order to not get upset.
the results may be similar, but the circumstances behind them vary wildly.
Flaherty2 votesMy intention is to take out their nexus and win, so my plan is to run straight for a tower and start attacking it regardless of any other factor because eventually I can destroy it even if it means I have to die 75 times, and then I'll go to the next one and the next one and the inhib, and then 2 more towers and then their nexus. My team just has to make sure they don't lose everything while I do this and we can win, but my team loses because it's pretty much a 4v5 because I'm dead 70% of the game. My team gets extremely frustrated with my gameplay and they all lose a game that could've easily been won because I couldn't be bothered to do anything I didn't want because I'm self entitled, BUT IT'S OKAY BECAUSE I DIDN'T INTEND FOR ANY OF IT TO HAPPEN THAT WAY.
Slythion1 votesSo you'd be ok with me going ADC Fiddlesticks and intentionally feeding the other team in a ranked game (or any game actually, just especially in a ranked game) because that's just my playstyle?
Thank god I can force my team to comply with my wishes while they picked more successful decisions and didn't become a hindrance on me. Forcing others to comply with me while I don't have to comply to them is a good and healthy relationship!
Aptest1 votesIf you come to my bot lane and play fiddle, AP or AD or even tank, I'm ok with it.
if you run into the enemy tower spamming mastery emotes and /dance once you draw tower aggro, obviously not ok.
get the difference ?
Flaherty1 votesSo you're playing bot lane and you're the ADC, then mid or top comes bot lane with you and starts killing minions for 10 minutes because he wants some gold to buy an item even though he's taking gold away from you and experience away from you and your support which will put all 3 of you behind. He isn't doing it to troll, he just doesn't care about how it affects you or your support or the team as a whole, is that okay with you?
Aptest1 votesIf he's doing this I'm going to assume he's got a cunning plan, and adapt my play accordingly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/randomir/miscellaneous/MotivationalBaldrick.jpg?noredirect
Actually that is an excellent example you've pulled out. Let's switch up the scenario "a bit".
Let's say its me and the support, we've just smashed our lane and took our tower. What's our next "textbook" move?
minutes 6 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDy4eXCd_Z4#t=934.388791
textbook "best and most efficient" answer: go mid and "pressure the tower". this means im gonna camp my ADC ass on your mid lane, and gonna thwack the enemy tower as much as I can, and im gonna gulp each and every minion that comes my way. and it's gonna take a bunch of waves to happen.
and you, as the mid, are going to let me get all the minions, and you're going to stay in lane and defend me, and you're going to do it and like it because it is the most effective way to win the game.
Flaherty1 votesWhy would you assume he has a cunning plan? No, he just wants gold and experience and he only wants it from bot lane because that's how he wants it to be. You can move mid with your support and just take the minions there but then the other player decides he wants gold from that lane. The example you've given in the video shows a specific scenario of bot lane winning their lane and then coming mid to help them progress towards the enemy nexus. These are strategies to take advantage of a lead that has already been established in order to give a greater lead to their team as a whole. These two scenarios aren't at all the same and no amount of word twisting you do is going to change that.
Aptest1 voteshe only wants it from bot lane because that's how he wants it to be
Generally people have some kind of internal logic to what they do. Assuming the guy isn't griefing, there has to be some valid, "i do this to win the game" reasoning to his strategy.
Because of this the correct response from me is understand what the reasoning is, and play according to that understanding.
ofcourse you're trying to build a "if he comes bot it means he is griefing" argument. which is why you got rid of the guy's reasoning in your scenario.
here is a possible scenario for the "top lane comes to permanent fiesta on bot lane":
top lane lost lane. top lane is not effective in own lane because lost it and is getting killed again and again. enemy top lane scales well. top lane thinks that by pressuring the winning lane (bot) he can force 5v4s and win through objective snowball in bot and mid lane (and hopefully fed enemy top will not achieve as much). As for the killing of the minions, he isn't farming, as much as he is hard-pushing to make the pressure on the tower.
BTW this happened in a past game of mine. The pressure resulted in forced fights, which we won narrowly but converted to objectives comfortably. We won the game despite a fed tryndamare banging on our top lane structures.
Aptest1 voteshe only wants it from bot lane because that's how he wants it to be
Generally people have some kind of internal logic to what they do. Assuming the guy isn't griefing, there has to be some valid, "i do this to win the game" reasoning to his strategy.
Because of this the correct response from me is understand what the reasoning is, and play according to that understanding.
ofcourse you're trying to build a "if he comes bot it means he is griefing" argument. which is why you got rid of the guy's reasoning in your scenario.
here is a possible scenario for the "top lane comes to permanent fiesta on bot lane":
top lane lost lane. top lane is not effective in own lane because lost it and is getting killed again and again. enemy top lane scales well. top lane thinks that by pressuring the winning lane (bot) he can force 5v4s and win through objective snowball in bot and mid lane (and hopefully fed enemy top will not achieve as much). As for the killing of the minions, he isn't farming, as much as he is hard-pushing to make the pressure on the tower.
BTW this happened in a past game of mine. The pressure resulted in forced fights, which we won narrowly but converted to objectives comfortably. We won the game despite a fed tryndamare banging on our top lane structures.
Slythion1 votesHe has over 3000 games and still can't make it out of silver 4...I'm not sure how effective he is at "cheesing his way through silver"...not sure why you'd throw that obviously faulty argument in there
Aptest1 votesyou are saying: because he is not going to gold anywhere soon we should turn off his smite and maybe also his favorite champion and make him play something more effective like Annie.
I am saying: He is playing something different. Maybe you do not agree with his style. Maybe it is not as effective as other styles. But it is still a legitimate choice. It is legitimate for him to keep playing Garen top lane with smite and no flash and stay in silver.
Speaking of Smite, how about no heal on Kogmaw? smite/flash bot lane kogmaw with 55+% win rate? you'd ban that one too probably with your "meta enforcement".
Slythion2 votesAlright, let me see if I can word this in a way where you can't twist my words:
If you are playing a champion in a way where it is blatantly inefficient, you are trolling. Trolling has a correlation with failure, but just because you are successful does not mean you aren't purposefully making yourself a hindrance to your team.
Also, the fact that he is remaining in silver show's that either he or his choices are inefficient and are actively keeping his teammates down with him. If he was playing a champion to the best of his ability then I'd be fine with it, but this guy is intentionally handicapping his team by not providing global pressure just because he wanted a few hundred more hp from cinderhulk...but wait! He isn't even using any jungle items, making the best of even his troll build! Thank god he secured that couple extra cs in lane, really hoping to do his best isn't he?
I'd like to see a link to this "smite/flash bot lane kogmaw with 55+% win rate" btw, as I'm curious how much synergy he has with bloodrazor considering his W changes. At least Kog had some synergy with bloodrazor that could be deemed worth giving up the tradeoff of heal
Aptest1 votesNo. Just because I am playing in a way that is not widely accepted as effective, it does not mean I am purposefully playing to lose or purposefully playing with a handicap.
there is a gap between what is believed to be effective, and what actually is effective. Sometimes that gap is pretty big, as shown by NightBlue (Assassin junglers, now everbody loves them) and Trick2G (Shove and shove, Udyr at the gates) and before them PhantomL0rd (Revive / Tp was the accepted "im gonna troll you" summoner setup on season 2?) and the guy who showcased camp before lane cheese with mid lane Vi, can't remember his name.
enforcing the meta is bad because of two reasons first it prevents people from having fun by having their own way of playing the game and secondly we freeze the state of the game by not allowing the people who discover all these things to make their discoveries.
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As for the Garen: you're right, either his overall game strategy (early gromp with smite, level 2 cheese with the gromp buff) or the rest of his game are holding him back.
thing is, YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH OF THEM. quite possible, this guy without his cheese is bronze 2. so maybe you should force him to cheese.
Slythion1 votesenforcing the meta is bad because of two reasons first it prevents people from having fun by having their own way of playing the game and secondly we freeze the state of the game by not allowing the people who discover all these things to make their discoveries.
both of these reasons are why norms exist. Don't bring "experimental" stuff into Ranked, that's not what it's meant for
Aptest1 votesyou do not know what ranked is meant for and you do not know what is experimental or not you do not know that the meta is the most effective (hint: it is not.) in all cases. you do not know what play style is the most effective in any given case.
when you are able to check all these marks, we'll talk. right now, you you do not get to determine what ranked is for and not for.
It Hertz When IP1 votesKeep in mind not every jungler needs it. WW only really needs it after about lvl 4 for securing dragon/Baron. Nunu and Cho'Gath HAVE smite-like equivalent abilities in their kit. Nunu in particular really doesn't NEED Smite, Smite just makes his job slightly easier.
Slythion1 votesyou forget that every jungler needs a jungler item (only available with smite) for the bonus xp from camps
Junkο3 votesAside from the fact that 1 person on each game is assigned the role jungle and Riot themselves saying going off role is banable?
KirynDawn1 votesactually you arent assigned to 1 role for each player. you can have 5 mids assigned if it really came down to it
Slythion1 votesonly if it's pre-planned by a 5man team. The system will never assign 5 mid laners on the same team that don't know eachother.
So once again, it's alright if it's a group consensus but when you are forcing your selfish decision on 4 other people, it's trolling
Hethalean1 votesOr if Riot comes out with a jungler who can clear without Smite.
Flaherty1 votesYou still would want smite for dragon/rift/baron control
Hethalean1 votesDepends. Someone like Chogath has a True damage ability that does more or as much as smite. Also some champions can make up for a lack of smite if they are on your team (Kalista, Nunu, Jhin's 4th hit, Cho'Gath, etc)
Slythion1 votesbecause the role specifically says "jungle"
Aptest1 votesbecause my desired role does not exist in the current method, another role must substitute for it, and this must be an acceptable solution from riot's point of view. otherwise my desired role is completely UN-selectable and that is unacceptable.
kappa.
