Champions should have a limit of 10 mechanics in their kit.

deadlychuck · 2017-01-29T20:25:40.497Z

10 beneficial mechanics. When champions have 10+ mechanics in their kit, more often than not, the champion you pick CAN'T actually outplay them. People will say that you can, but far too often "outplay" means they fuck up, by either being over aggressive or wasting an important ability. There is such a small window to how the champion is countered, that 9/10 times you can't actually capitalize on it. At which point you're pretty much reduced to waiting for them to massively misplay in order to get a lead. This isn't good game design. Most champions who have tons of mechanics stack in their kit have such obscure counters, on top of normally having 1-2 methods of buffering their weaknesses by means of defensive stats or mechanics. Why is it that the old design, someone like twisted fate, has clearly no dampener for his weaknesses, but a champion like yasuo or ekko get a shield just in case someone tries to exploit the weaknesses of the champion? Holy crap, to everyone in the comments, YES damage is a mechanic, but it's universal enough that including it everywhere would be redundant and simply act to raise that number arbitrarily. (this should be unnecessary) ##disclaimer: i never called for the removal of the champions, only a reduction in the number of mechanics in their kit.

Arya RivenJan 30, 20175 votes

In that case remove Garen.

Passive: Resourceless, hp regen Q: Speed run, damage enhancement, silence, slow cleanse W: bonus magic resist and armor, active damage mitigation E: AoE damage, shred, bonus damage to villians R: Execute, true damage to villians

Anybody can do that with any champion.

And out of curiosity do you even know what an animation cancel is and who all does them?

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

Just like everyone i don't know every single animation cancel in the game. I do know what it is and how it happens though.

Also i just want to point out that i said "mechanics" didn't include "base damage and damage of their primary type".

So in that analysis you'd actually have.

Garen 11 P: Resourceless, Regen Q: Speed, Silence, Slow cleanse W: Bonus resestences, % damage reduction E: Shred, true damage R: Execute, true damage.

Which again is too much. Remember before his changes in the juggernaut update, he didn't have his True damage or armor shred. So that alone would reduce that number to 8.

If you look at the champions which have been updated, or released, post juggernaut update you'll find they're most often in the class of champions which have above this number. Champions which haven't been are far more often below that number.

Arya RivenJan 30, 20173 votes

Damage is a mechanic as some abilities don't have it. Unless you are saying Ashe's E has more use than any damage only spells in the game...

TyrekGoldenspearJan 30, 20173 votes

Hey how is being resourceless a mechanic?

Are you going to make mana and energy mechanics too?

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

The argument could be made for energy, but mana is obviously the standard.

However, resourceless, unlike the other two, has no extra restrictions attached, such as longer term management or short term wasting energy. For that same reason, things like aatrox atk spd or tryn crit would be something i'd describe as a separate mechanic.

In fact, it's enough of one that in urf they give it to everyone.

Mira Arya EntheJan 30, 20172 votes

I do animation cancels on Shyvana. Almost any champion can cancel some basic attacks and abilities/active items animations somewhat or entirely.

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

I agree, which is why i'm not going to go around saying "well riven can cancel 4 and shyv can cancel 2".

It's too under the hood and awkward to account for, which is part of the reason why i feel it should be removed, because even riot isn't considering such details when doing things like reworking or balancing. Though i understand that it's not really reasonable to remove them. I can dream.

The Scout GirlJan 30, 20175 votes

Ashe: Crit modifier, slow, attack speed buff, AD steroid, cone damage, cone slows, vision utility, global damage, global stun, global slow, bonus slows from crits, ranged(I mean if resourceless is a mechanic).

Remove Ashe ASAP

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Scout Girl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dK74njAv,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-30T00:48:12.257+0000)

Ashe: Crit modifier, slow, attack speed buff, ~~AD steroid~~, ~~cone damage~~, ~~cone~~ slows, vision utility, global damage, global stun, global slow,~~ bonus slows from crits~~,~~ ranged~~(I mean if resourceless is a mechanic).

Remove Ashe ASAP

First, i never said the champions needed to be removed, idk why you think i was saying they did... well probably i probably do... but i digress.

Yes, resourcesless is a beneficial mechanic to a champion, just look at urf they remove resource costs from all champions. You literally remove a restricting factor from the champion.

Range it isn't explicitly beneficial, it falls under base stats, i do feel how riot basically have 2 ranges is a little bit dumb (bar thresh), but again it's a base stat, if you had something like trist passive or kog W, then yes, it's a mechanic. Marksmen have lower base stats than melee champions as compensation for such things.

The Scout GirlJan 30, 20171 votes

Range it isn't explicitly beneficial

ಠ_ಠ

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

lol if you read past that one part of the sentence you might understand what i actually mean by that.

Range is something which is accounted for in the balancing of the base stats. It might be more beneficial for a champion to have higher move speed, defenses, exc.

Obviously if you were to just raise the atk range of a champion without any other adjustments, it'd be a pure buff, which you seem to think i'm saying it wouldn't be.

The Scout GirlJan 30, 20171 votes

Everything is accounted for in the balance of champions. Garen being resourceless is accounted for when they choose how to balance his laning phase. He is just garbage because I can pick Teemo and he has no tools to counterplay me in lane.

ZephyrDrakeJan 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Yes, i'm talking about every component of every skill, with the exception of base damage and damage of their primary type (physical damage with AD, magic damage with AP).

"Mechanics" would include... Dash, Blink, shield, all CC, true damage, inverse scaling (e.g. AD scaling magic damage on lee sin E), % max hp, executions (% missing HP), heal, stat buffs, Internal interactions (e.g. varus ult applying 3 stacks of blight).

In the case of riven this is the break down. That's also excluding things like counting how many animation cancels the champion has, or in this case, how momentum affects her Q range. Mainly because those kind of details are just too hard to gather info on. 12 P: Resourceless, AD multiplier Q: Dash x3, Knock up W: Stun E: Dash, Shield R: AD multiplier, AoE increase (to Q and W), Execution

i guess we should remove every single champion in the game then! sorry but your idea is so flawed is not even fun making fun of it

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

How do you even figure that to be the case?

Volibear 7 Karthus 6 Sejuani 8 exc.

The point is that this is the root all this power creep. They keep stuffing more and more mechanics into the kits of champions, and it's a pretty safe assumption that they will undervalue some types of mechanics, in riot's case i think defensive mechanics are normally undervalued, but by putting a limit on the number of mechanics in a kit, you can almost be sure there will be another mechanic which they don't have an answer for, and are forced to play around.

Not every champion will have the mechanic that the an enemy champion lacks an answer, but it's less likely that they have one which you can't answer either.

Truthfully i feel grounded would be very good at fixing this problem, =but it's by no means well enough distrusted to have any real impact.

ZephyrDrakeJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How do you even figure that to be the case?

7 6 8 exc.

The point is that this is the root all this power creep. They keep stuffing more and more mechanics into the kits of champions, and it's a pretty safe assumption that they will undervalue some types of mechanics, in riot's case i think defensive mechanics are normally undervalued, but by putting a limit on the number of mechanics in a kit, you can almost be sure there will be another mechanic which they don't have an answer for, and are forced to play around.

Not every champion will have the mechanic that the an enemy champion lacks an answer, but it's less likely that they have one which you can't answer either.

Truthfully i feel grounded would be very good at fixing this problem, =but it's by no means well enough distrusted to have any real impact.

oh so we will have a 3 champion roster? good to know! the entire game is about playing around the mechanics of another champion... hell 5 other champions at the same time! you don't get to decide how many mechanics a champion should or shouldn't have just because of what you think. If riot wants to make a champion that has every single mechanic in the game they will do it. The only thing that matters is not how many mechanics the champion has, it's how it is balanced. What is that champion giving up for having those mechanics. Volibear even though he has according to you only 7 mechanical things he was still complained about being too strong and too broken at one point in his life and he didn't lose any of the mechanics that he had back then. Even a champion with very little mechanics to them can and will be complained about if they are too strong. Sorry to burst your bubble but a champion with 5 things is not that much different than one with 15

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

I never claimed that it was all about mechanics, nor am i going to go through over 100 champions, i just listed a few more to show that the number 10, still leaves a significant portion of the champion pool untouched. And again you assume that i want the champions with more to be removed.** I don't lol ** I simply want the extra mechanics which have been added to be removed, then their numbers adjusted accordingly.

The reason they should stop giving champions so many mechanics, is because it's harder to balance a champion with 15 mechanics than it is to balance one with 5, and riot has shown they aren't he best at balancing their game. You make a small adjustment to 1/5 of the kit, you've made a predictable change. You make a moderate adjustment to 1/15 of the kit, it has adverse affects on the rest of what the champions is incapable of doing. Nerf their defense, they no longer have enough burst to dive a tower. Nerf their damage, they no longer have enough suitability to wait until their next rotation of skills to kill targets.

Kits are being so tailored together with just the right amount of these 15 different mechanics, that when the champion is too strong, forcing riot to reduce one of them, the champion fails to function the intended way.

Also, what a bullshit way to justify giving champions more power, they aren't "sacrificing" anything in many situations. Tell me, what did garen sacrifice for his 25% armor shred on his E recently?

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you don't get to decide how many mechanics a champion should or shouldn't have just because of what you think. If riot wants to make a champion that has every single mechanic in the game they will do it. The only thing that matters is not how many mechanics the champion has, it's how it is balanced.

P.s. I don't think i have some right to decide how many mechancis champions should have. The only thing i think is that i have a right to express my opinion, that raising the average number of mechanics on champions is hurting the game. If you don't like my opinion and ignore my arguments then you're adding nothing to the conversation. #Don't hit your head on your way out.

ZephyrDrakeJan 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

you don't get to decide how many mechanics a champion should or shouldn't have just because of what you think. If riot wants to make a champion that has every single mechanic in the game they will do it. The only thing that matters is not how many mechanics the champion has, it's how it is balanced.

P.s. I don't think i have some right to decide how many mechancis champions should have. The only thing i think is that i have a right to express my opinion, that raising the average number of mechanics on champions is hurting the game. If you don't like my opinion and ignore my arguments then you're adding nothing to the conversation. #Don't hit your head on your way out.

YOUR IDEA IS TERRIBLE! simple as that good day sir

Mira Arya EntheJan 30, 20172 votes

Wait so damage isn't a mechanic? So if we ad AoE damage to Janna's shield she hasn't gained a mechanic? If we add damage to Riven's E she hasn't gained a mechanic? Lolwtf.

deadlychuckJan 30, 20171 votes

I mean in terms of mechanics which affect the answers she has, it really doesn't. What does raw damage answer? If riven's E did damage to enemies she passed through, does it change how someone would deal with the champion? No not really. It might make people more likely to misplay the champion, but it doesn't change what she needs to be worried about when fighting.

There might be an argument to be made about something like wave clear, but outside of very specific damage like zigg's E killing towers, raw damage doesn't really change how the champion functions.

Champions should have a limit of 10 mechanics in their kit.

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